EPTWhat are the damage ranges where you can guarantee last hits under tower (by hitting a creep once, waiting for it to take tower shots, then getting last hit)? And what damage ranges require me to drop QB under tower?
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
What are the damage ranges where you can guarantee last hits under tower (by hitting a creep once, waiting for it to take tower shots, then getting last hit)? And what damage ranges require me to drop QB under tower? | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8915 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
Tier 1 towers do 100-120 damage, reduced by creeps 2 armor to about 90-110. Before 7:50, creeps have 550 HP so they *could* die in 5 hits but 6 is far more common. The issue being how much HP they have remaining after 5 hits. It can be anywhere from 100 to 0, and most heroes are going to do *about* 50 damage post-reduction. So half the time you need to hit it twice to get the kill (50-100 hp after 5 tower hits) and half the time only once (0-50HP after 5 tower hits). With a quelling blade, you are prone to doing say 65 damage not 50. This means that the range of creeps you miss with just 1 hit is lower, but it also makes it much harder to decide when to give creeps the extra hit. So people drop the QB to make it simpler, but this step isn't strictly required. The ideal situation is for the creep to have 111hp or slightly more after 4 shots plus however many hits you need to do. So that the 5th shot CANT kill the creep and you have a certain lasthit. Note that this is a billion times harder with heroes like CK whose own damage range is huge (like 24 or something). | ||
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
last hitting requires practice and i would suggest you do it without a qb everygame. even | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 15 2013 23:20 evilfatsh1t wrote: from experience i stay away from 65-70 damage as much as possible. someone could probably do the exact maths but for me ive found that staying away from 65-70 (number shown on the sword. not taking into account min-max damage) guarantees last hits. thats why i pretty much never get quelling blade unless on bfury heroes because it puts your damage range in the 60-70s. also with luna i like to skill 2 levels of lunar blessing at once, so i dont have a period where my damage is in that range. also with morphlings morph Your gut feeling is correct. 65-70 is the damage amount where 50% of the time you need to hit the creep once to set up the last-hit, and 50% of the time you can just hit the creep once. Which means it's the time when you're most likely to get fucked up by RNG. Staying below that range means you're very likely to get the lasthit with 2 hits, and above it means you're likely to just need one. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
I was criticized for my build on Void the other day: I went treads drum mkb skadi bkb butterfly. I made the skadi for durability and some dps in hopes that I could skip the bkb by omitting madness. The other team's hardest carry was Invoker, which is why I didn't bother making any farming items. I went back for the bkb anyway, but found it to not make a difference. Was the skadi a mistake? Should I have just gotten a vitality booster and made butterfly before finishing heart? Was the whole build a mistake? | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8915 Posts
and theres nothing really "wrong" with your build. maybe it wasnt optimal for your game (i cant tell), but at the end of the day as long as you hit hard and you dont get dropped in 2 seconds then youre doing it right. drums is pretty unnecessary but not outright bad. void doesnt exactly need a lot of mana and the hp could have been gotten just as easily by getting a bkb/heart. mkb as a first major item is questionable, but im guessing they had some evasion on their team? the biggest problem with the build was lack of aspd until you got your bfly, which was the 6th item. instead of drums->mkb it would probably have been better to go yasha->bkb->manta. this is assuming you still want to stick to non farming items. ideally you want to go either bfury or maelstrom so that you can accelerate your farm. skadi is quite decent on void but if you get lucky with timelocks the slow is unnecessary, especially with chrono, which is why many people favour lifesteal on void. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
BKB is crucial if you can't catch ALL their disables in chrono. The key is, you catch all their damage in chrono and bkb to ignore disables. So you want: Boots/BKB/Butter/Satanic (screw heart thats awful) and the rest is gravy depending on what issues you are having. Crits is by far the most damage though, no contest. Not necessarily in that order though, since without a dmg item the bkb is kinda pointless. DK gets an AC because he should never be the primary carry so the AC helps the other carry. It also fits with his "pushing carry" identity (Level 1 and 2 ulti crush towers with their DoT) and since you get it after BKB it makes you pretty much impossible to burst down. Note that the attack speed allows you to spread your free skadi-slow around their whole team. Its weak from a pure DPS point of view but its amazing from a utility point of view, which is where DK is coming from. You can still eliminate any supports that stray across your path since it is enough DPS, but it really helps your carry battle theirs. If for some reason you are the primary carry then you probably are looking at a different item to deal the deeps though (Crits come to mind). | ||
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son1dow
Lithuania322 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8915 Posts
On October 16 2013 01:17 Sn0_Man wrote: Skadi is a huge mistake it does nothing on Void. You don't need the slow since you have a bash and your own slow and chrono, you don't need the mana whatsoever, and the rest of the stats are highly cost-inefficient relatively speaking. Drum is also pretty awful since you don't need the MS and the rest of the stats aren't good enough for a pure-right clicker. MKB is a terrible first item its less damage than every other Tier-3 item unless they have inbuild evasion/miss chance. Save it for post-butterfly (and even then its bad since you can't evade under chrono). BKB is crucial if you can't catch ALL their disables in chrono. The key is, you catch all their damage in chrono and bkb to ignore disables. So you want: Boots/BKB/Butter/Satanic (screw heart thats awful) and the rest is gravy depending on what issues you are having. Crits is by far the most damage though, no contest. Not necessarily in that order though, since without a dmg item the bkb is kinda pointless. DK gets an AC because he should never be the primary carry so the AC helps the other carry. It also fits with his "pushing carry" identity (Level 1 and 2 ulti crush towers with their DoT) and since you get it after BKB it makes you pretty much impossible to burst down. Note that the attack speed allows you to spread your free skadi-slow around their whole team. Its weak from a pure DPS point of view but its amazing from a utility point of view, which is where DK is coming from. You can still eliminate any supports that stray across your path since it is enough DPS, but it really helps your carry battle theirs. If for some reason you are the primary carry then you probably are looking at a different item to deal the deeps though (Crits come to mind). thats not how youre supposed to use chrono. you almost never want to focus on getting the dps dealers only unless you know you can kill them in the duration of the chrono. chrono should be used on the squishy supports at the backline which you will definitely kill in the duration, so that when chrono is finished you end up with a 4v5 or even 3v5 situation. otherwise you will run into situations where, despite using bkb the enemy will stop you from killing their carry with skills like disruption, eblade, naga ulti etc. then you just have a normal 5v5 which can end up going either way On October 16 2013 01:22 son1dow wrote: Could somebody elaborate on choosing satanic over heart on a melee carry? I don't get why it would be a good item on void. if you need hp and lifesteal at the same time but dont already have a mask of madness or vlads, get satanic. it is possibly the best 6th item in the game. also, it is important to note that you have to make sure you arent being kited a lot or there are no ghost scepters on your primary targets. if you just need tankiness in general heart is the safer option, it allows you to reengage quickly if you back out from a fight, provides huge hp and if youre a str hero some decent damage. | ||
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
On October 16 2013 01:01 Nightmarjoo wrote: What's the reasoning for AC on DK? It gives armour and attack speed (and some damage from -armour); DK already has innate armour but no innate damage so building attack speed gives him a fairly negligible boost in dps. It seems to me that he should be building damage after BKB: something like a general full build of phase (I don't understand the treads on him either, beyond treads-switching to help his shitty manapool) bracer armlet bkb daedalus. Am I missing something? I was criticized for my build on Void the other day: I went treads drum mkb skadi bkb butterfly. I made the skadi for durability and some dps in hopes that I could skip the bkb by omitting madness. The other team's hardest carry was Invoker, which is why I didn't bother making any farming items. I went back for the bkb anyway, but found it to not make a difference. Was the skadi a mistake? Should I have just gotten a vitality booster and made butterfly before finishing heart? Was the whole build a mistake? pros go for ac on dk because they were playing mid and not main carry. if you are in pubs and you are the only carry do not go ac as you need more damage items, if you have a good carry with farm then you should go ac. you do not build drums skadi on void unless you are trolling for funziez. to play void in pubs all you have to do is go boots, damage item, bkb or attackspeed item. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
Regarding chrono targets, its incredibly situational based on what their heroes can do, but as a support player I can assure you that voids who blink-chrono their CM/WR back-line supports then cry about no backup when their puck/lifestealer infest bomb kills the rest of our team are some of the most annoying things on earth. WE CAN DEAL WITH CM ROFL. KILL THE GODDAMN NAIX. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 16 2013 01:01 Nightmarjoo wrote: What's the reasoning for AC on DK? It gives armour and attack speed (and some damage from -armour); DK already has innate armour but no innate damage so building attack speed gives him a fairly negligible boost in dps. It seems to me that he should be building damage after BKB: something like a general full build of phase (I don't understand the treads on him either, beyond treads-switching to help his shitty manapool) bracer armlet bkb daedalus. Am I missing something? Attack speed is a big boost in DPS for DK by the time he gets one because it's generally a 3rd/4th item behind evenly mixed or damage-heavy items (BKB in particular is a 34 damage 0 attack speed item). It's rare to get AC so early that you don't have damage yet. On October 16 2013 01:30 aintz wrote: pros go for ac on dk because they were playing mid and not main carry. if you are in pubs and you are the only carry do not go ac as you need more damage items, if you have a good carry with farm then you should go ac. It's still possible to end up with AC on a 1st position DK, largely because of the lack of other lategame AS items. You're pretty much always going to reach the point where AS is a better damage increase than a damage item because of how naturally damage-heavy buying Strength items is. There are only 3 practical options here, which are AC, Mjollnir, and Butterfly. AC is better than Mjollnir if you didn't get the Maelstrom to farm, and Agility being a secondary stat for you makes Butterfly only good as a 6th item--when you usually need your AS before then. | ||
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
Skadi on void seems like a huge waste tho | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On October 16 2013 02:28 TheSubtleArt wrote: Also DK is a strength hero. Even with your passive, agi carries will generally get higher armor than you lategame, to the point where AC becomes a valuable pick up as a 3rd+ item. Skadi on void seems like a huge waste tho Might as well go for agha or refresher. | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
On October 15 2013 20:43 Oukka wrote: In that case let's assume the ideal timing to be around 13 minutes, so aiming to brown boots+Battlefury. Assume no starting gold spared. Boots 450g and and B-fury 4350g. In 13 minutes you passively gain 13x60x1gold=780 gold so you need to earn 450g + 4350g - 780g = 4020g during the 13 minutes to afford the Battlefury. A wave is about 177gold and siege creep in every seventh wave is worth 73 gold. So lets just say that every wave is worth 187 gold so that we dont have do too much maths :D 4020 divided by 187 gives 21,5 so with perfect lasthitting 22th wave should be when you reach 4020 gold from creeps alone. 22th wave spawns 10:30 so the passive gold regen has not actually given you 780g but rather something around 660 gold (11 minutes) So you still lack 120ish gold which is about three creeps. This means that 23rd (spawns at 11:00) wave is when you can reach the required gold sum assuming no gold was earned from kills/towers and no starting gold was spared. B-fury at 13 minutes means about 3 waves of missed creeps, so you should have 95ish cs by 13minutes. 14 minute B-fury is (4800g-14*60*1g)/187g/wave = 21,2 waves, so in terms of CS it means 94 by 14 mins. Basically every minute more it takes to get the B-fury means 2 missed waves. So in terms of lasthitting percentage with 100% you'll get b-fury in about 11:30 when the creeps spawned at 11:00 are lasthittable. If you get the B-fury in 13 minutes you've misssed 3 waves out of 26 (not counting the wave that spawns at 13:00) so your efficiency or accuracy or Black^ness or Burningness or whatever is about 88,5%. 14 minutes means 21,5/28 waves so ~77%. 15 minutes is 21/30 which is 70%. If I screwed up something heavily let me know :D P.S. If you score every second last hit (so 50% efficiency -> GPM 247 so a wave per minute for 187gpm +passive 60gpm ) B-Fury takes 19,5 minutes to farm. On mobile but going to see what happens when you redo your math. Passive gold is 75 per minute, not 60. Otherwise seems fine enough as a basic model without any variance introduced. | ||
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Jinxed
United States6450 Posts
The 'standard' I know is Soul Ring/Treads/Orchid for good solo killing power, but I feel like this is absurdly squishy and you really don't use the mana regen that well. Instead I was considering Soul Ring/Treads/Drum/Yasha/BKB. The thing is that I don't know about drum on her. I feel like it's good because she can use the int, and makes her more tanky, plus the move/attack speed aura is really good for taking towers, but I feel like it's a lot of mid game items and hurts her already bad late game. Even if you make Manta after the BKB I don't know if that's enough by that time Maybe it would be better to get the BKB after drum and then go Yasha/Manta after that. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On October 16 2013 09:44 LeLoup wrote: I'm considering trying out a new build for Broodmother. The 'standard' I know is Soul Ring/Treads/Orchid for good solo killing power, but I feel like this is absurdly squishy and you really don't use the mana regen that well. Instead I was considering Soul Ring/Treads/Drum/Yasha/BKB. The thing is that I don't know about drum on her. I feel like it's good because she can use the int, and makes her more tanky, plus the move/attack speed aura is really good for taking towers, but I feel like it's a lot of mid game items and hurts her already bad late game. Even if you make Manta after the BKB I don't know if that's enough by that time Maybe it would be better to get the BKB after drum and then go Yasha/Manta after that. If you went for drums instead then you'd have a more 5v5 oriented build which really defeats the purpose of playing broodmother. The orchid extends your ability to be able to manfight anybody on the map because it is very unlikely that a hero can outduel you while silenced and taking extra damage. Essentially, you're forcing them to send multiple heroes to deal with broodmother (because if they just send one then broodmother will kill them and keep pushing). This opens your team up to a 4v3 they should easily be able to win or merely create space for your team to get ahead by farming more areas. Drums doesn't really fall in line with that, unless you're trying to play broodmother in a completely different manner. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
Manta helps you scale plus takes off obnoxious stuff like dust which is pretty huge. BKB generally is a must. The order is game dependant like all bkb carries but often as a BM you can kinda delay it since you don't typically wish to fight very much. Drums I'd never thought of but they sound reasonably legit. After soul ring, of course, but still sounds quite legit. Its only very very very good opponents who would check the creeps for drums aura as a tell for your location. Besides, if you have a Basilius (which you should it really helps push) then they can check for that aura unless you toggle which isn't even good on BM. So like soul ring + basi + treads into drums into Manta then BKB. Seems mega legit. Then again I've heard shotgun brood is fun too lol. | ||
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