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On September 21 2013 22:32 mnesthes wrote:
How do I solo safelane against Lich offlane? I can't stop him from using Dark Ritual.
1v1 vs lich is bad for every hero who's name isn't Outworld Devourer or Skywrath Mage. He will be able to constantly deny you xp, outlevel you, and potentially kill you the entire laning phase. Luckily, he has no escape and is quite squishy. It should be fairly easy for your team to come and gank him from time to time.
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On September 21 2013 23:38 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 22:32 mnesthes wrote:
How do I solo safelane against Lich offlane? I can't stop him from using Dark Ritual. 1v1 vs lich is bad for every hero who's name isn't Outworld Devourer or Skywrath Mage. He will be able to constantly deny you xp, outlevel you, and potentially kill you the entire laning phase. Luckily, he has no escape and is quite squishy. It should be fairly easy for your team to come and gank him from time to time. What can I do at least, when my team has to engage in an offensive trilane against the enemy trilane?
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Depends on your hero. If your hero has no means of killing him then the best you can do is last hit as much as possible and not die when he turns lvl 6 or 7. Lich is supposed to shutdown farm and lvls in 1v1 situations, so nothing you can do but minimise the damage. Or kill him
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If you're soloing as Sylla you can use the bear to stack and pull. Once you pull the creep wave back past your tower you can kill the wave as well as the jungle creeps if you micro well, and you'll be getting the xp and gold Lich would otherwise deny you.
If you aren't Sylla, you could try just pushing out the creep wave harder into his tower, then running off into the jungle to clear a camp before coming back.
Additionally/alternatively if your team doesn't have that big of a need to use the courier you can get a bottle and crow it. If you can only sit in lane and tank his nuke it'll restore your hp, and if you're pushing and jungling with some spell it'll fix you up for hp and mana, allowing you to spam in lane/jungle.
What heroes are you usally using in 1v1 vs Lich?
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On September 21 2013 23:51 mnesthes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 23:38 Excludos wrote:On September 21 2013 22:32 mnesthes wrote:
How do I solo safelane against Lich offlane? I can't stop him from using Dark Ritual. 1v1 vs lich is bad for every hero who's name isn't Outworld Devourer or Skywrath Mage. He will be able to constantly deny you xp, outlevel you, and potentially kill you the entire laning phase. Luckily, he has no escape and is quite squishy. It should be fairly easy for your team to come and gank him from time to time. What can I do at least, when my team has to engage in an offensive trilane against the enemy trilane?
Depends on the matchup. Some heroes can punish level 1 sacrifice pretty well. You can also ask your supports to pool you regen
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United States47024 Posts
On September 21 2013 23:38 Excludos wrote:
1v1 vs lich is bad for every hero who's name isn't Outworld Devourer or Skywrath Mage. He will be able to constantly deny you xp, outlevel you, and potentially kill you the entire laning phase. Luckily, he has no escape and is quite squishy. It should be fairly easy for your team to come and gank him from time to time.
I disagree.
Lich 1v1 off-lane vs. safe lane is strong against anyone who is powerful enough at level 1-2 to zone him off creeps.
Remember that Lich has no real fighting skills at level 1. If you choose a hero that does have strong level 1 fighting skills, he should never be able to touch the creeps, and you should be able to get every lasthit and every deny. Dark Ritual only does something when the XP advantage becomes a level advantage. XP differential doesn't matter until the point where it actually translates into a level disadvantage. If you slow-push the lane correctly, you should actually be able to get the lane to tower at a point where you are actually at a level advantage over him because of how not enough of your creeps have died yet (because he's eating creeps, his lane auto-pushes and your creeps don't die till they get to his tower). Depending on the hero you can actually play aggressively and zone him off tower XP with your level advantage (this can be VERY unsafe on certain heroes, but in pubs typically the enemy team does not respond to this).
It's actually harder mid lane because in mid, there's not as much distance for you to slow-push the lane like this, and it's more dangerous to try and zone his tower XP, but solo safe lane vs. hard lane pretty much any strong level 1 hero can do this to him.
For example with something like Batrider--you can play aggressively on the lane at level 1, making sure he can't level up off the 1st 2 creep waves (i.e. make sure that less than 4 of your creeps die--should be easy because of how the lane auto-pushes with 1 of his creeps missing). Once you hit 2, push your big wave of ~6-7 creeps into his tower, and then threaten the dive. If he tries to get XP on the triple wave (including the 3rd creep wave that is oncoming when you push), you dive him and kill him because a level 1 Lich has no way of not dying to the level 2 Batrider dive even if he hits 2 during the dive. In either case when the lane resets you have an enormous XP advantage.
The strength of Lich solo kicks in when he hits level 2 or 3 and then becomes hard to punish. But there are a lot of heroes that are strong enough level 1 to punish Lich. It's just in most people's minds, they aren't accustomed or comfortable with the idea of playing so aggressive at level 1.
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Interesting about the PRD. I wish we had an official Dota 2 list somewhere, but(as far a I know) we do not. I miss a place like the old allstars forum. the advanced mechanics section was insanely good, like a "complicated questions and answers" thread blown into a whole forum.
If anyone knows such a place, please tell me.
As for Lich, he is mostly weak. Using sacrifice once is at best worth 2 denies. Because full creep exp for melee creep is 62, melees get 36 and ranged 18 from a deny. Would Lich get 2 denies, a melee hero would get 62 exp less than normal. A ranged hero would get 88 exp less from 2 denies(which is already better than sacrifice).
It is nowhere as strong as it looks like on first sight. Also Lich is a squishy with no kill threat of his own so you(as trilane) can do whatever you want. Pull the lane, kill him, send 1 support around roaming, what can a Lich do about that?
For 1v1 Lich still has the big weakness of being one of the last heroes to hit on average for less than 50 damage on level 1. Even Weaver hits for average 55 nowadays. Just treat Lich like a guy that is really good about getting 2 denies every creepwave.
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- Added Psuedo Random chance for Roshan's Bash.
- Troll Warlord: Added Pseudo Random support for his Bash.
When was the PRD patch? You can't look at patchnotes before Dec2012 on the official website ^_^
- Pseudo Random chances are now enabled for these abilities: Coup de Grace, Slardar's Bash, Time Lock, Drunken Brawler's Crit, Headshot, Blade Dance, Chaos Knight's Crit, Lycan's Crit and Skeleton King's Crit.
That is all I can find, but I'm pretty sure there were two big additions of PRD. From the list it is clear that they are only for bash and crit though. Any abilities missing that fall into that category?
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On September 22 2013 04:56 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
- Added Psuedo Random chance for Roshan's Bash.
- Troll Warlord: Added Pseudo Random support for his Bash.
When was the PRD patch? You can't look at patchnotes before Dec2012 on the official website ^_^
- Pseudo Random chances are now enabled for these abilities: Coup de Grace, Slardar's Bash, Time Lock, Drunken Brawler's Crit, Headshot, Blade Dance, Chaos Knight's Crit, Lycan's Crit and Skeleton King's Crit.
That is all I can find, but I'm pretty sure there were two big additions of PRD. From the list it is clear that they are only for bash and crit though. Any abilities missing that fall into that category?
I believe that PRD is enabled on stout shield, vanguard, and PMS
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On September 22 2013 12:02 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 04:56 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
- Added Psuedo Random chance for Roshan's Bash.
- Troll Warlord: Added Pseudo Random support for his Bash.
When was the PRD patch? You can't look at patchnotes before Dec2012 on the official website ^_^
- Pseudo Random chances are now enabled for these abilities: Coup de Grace, Slardar's Bash, Time Lock, Drunken Brawler's Crit, Headshot, Blade Dance, Chaos Knight's Crit, Lycan's Crit and Skeleton King's Crit.
That is all I can find, but I'm pretty sure there were two big additions of PRD. From the list it is clear that they are only for bash and crit though. Any abilities missing that fall into that category? I believe that PRD is enabled on stout shield, vanguard, and PMS
Not sure how I missed that one- Pseudo Random chances are now enabled for these abilities: Coup de Grace, Slardar's Bash, Time Lock, Drunken Brawler's Crit, Headshot, Blade Dance, Chaos Knight's Crit, Lycan's Crit and Skeleton King's Crit.
- Added Pseudo Random chances for the following items: Daedalus, Crystalys, Abyssal Blade, Basher, Heaven's Halberd, Maelstrom, Mjollnir, Static Charge, Monkey King Bar, Poor Man's Shield, Sange, Sange and Yasha, Stout Shield, Vanguard.
- Added Psuedo Random chance for Roshan's Bash.
- Troll Warlord: Added Pseudo Random support for his Bash.
That should be all of em. It has come to my attention that not all the PRD additions were written explicitly in the patch notes so this may or may not be a full list.
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If that is all of them, than any dota 2 PRD wikipage I've seen is wrong.
If anyone has the energy and will to test it, try to get a series over "max N" of an effect not proccing.
For Spirit bears entangle "max N" it would be 17. So if you manage to get a series of 18 attacks without entangle, than it is not PRD based.
The hard to verfiy examples are actually javelin/stout/vanguard/static charge(mjollnir), since counting how many times one was attacked can be hard with the animations of some of the creeps.
That is the easiest way to disprove, at least. It takes way more effort to prove something follows PRD chances.
edit: Warlocks Golems not getting their aoe damage thing for 4 hits in a row should be easier.
It might take some time for any of these, though, as going that long without proc is still pretty rare under normal random distributions.
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United States47024 Posts
Javelin isn't PRD in DotA 1, so it's probably not PRD in DotA 2. The patch notes corroborate this.
Whoever wrote the DotA 2 Wiki article probably assumed it would be the same as MKB, when in fact they are different because MKB uses hard-coded bash while Javelin is triggered bonus physical damage not based on any of the PRD-using base abilities.
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To be honest I haven't heard of entangle using PRD before either. I had faith people did research before changing content on a liquipedia page.
Since the warlock golem isn't mentioned in any of the patches I will use my time to test if it uses PRD. Then remove it from the page.
edit: after 8 minutes of fumbling with botcommands I got a series of 4 attacks not proccing flaming fists. I will look to get the replay ID and change the LP page.
Replay not recorded. Awesome. Is there a way to force the game to record replays for singleplayer games?
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Are we sure they're using the same constants though? PRD in wc3 didn't work properly when the chance got over 15% so I have some small hope that they decided to fix it rather than port over PRD that made procs substantially less than they're supposed to be.
It would be a lot smarter to graph the distribution because the PRD distribution doesn't look similar to the non-PRD distribution. Not sure how to go about parsing combat logs though.
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Look in liquipedia, the PRD article is mostly by me.
I'm pretty sure my facts are straight. The point where it didn't work properly was over 30% btw, because wc3 used 5% - 30% in many hero skills.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 22 2013 20:42 Mataza wrote:
To be honest I haven't heard of entangle using PRD before either. I had faith people did research before changing content on a liquipedia page.
http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7993
Pseudo Random Abilities
The list of all currently known base abilities that follow this system of balanced randomness is shown below. Triggered abilities notably do not fall in this list.
- Critical Strike (ex. Phantom Assassin’s Coup de Grace, Crystalys)
- Bash (ex. Faceless Void’s Time Lock. As of its remake, Cranium Basher does not follow this distribution.)
- Pulverize (ex. Infernal’s Flaming Fists, Tidehunter’s Anchor Smash)
- Orb of Slow (ex. Maim, Maelstrom)
- Hardened Skin (ex. Stout Shield, Vanguard)
For Orb of Slow-based abilities, the counter is not disabled during the cooldown period. This means that attacks made by the Spirit Bear during the cooldown of Entangle will greatly increase the chance of entangling as soon as the cooldown is over.
Some further research or some knowledge of the WC3 editor should let you confirm that Spirit Bear's Entangle is Orb of Slow-based.
People probably changed it based on DotA 1 knowledge, even though it hasn't been fixed in DotA 2 yet.
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What should my skill build for a mid bat be?
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On September 23 2013 02:04 kollin wrote:
What should my skill build for a mid bat be?
I normally go for 1-1-1 by lv 3, and start with stack, fly, nuke,
I max sticky napalm first and get firefly 2 by lv 8, then go on maxing the nuke
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United States47024 Posts
There's actually a lot of variation on early skill orders, it's something you have to play with and figure out what works best for you. 4-0-4, 4-1-4, 2-4-2, 4-4-2, 2-4-4 are all decent in different situations.
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On September 21 2013 07:33 GtC wrote:
On the topic of mkb vs crit, could an mkb potentially be better dps wise on windrunner when she is using her ult?
Also, is it possible to get a crit and a minibash at the same time, and if so, does the crit add the minibash damage into the calculation?
Edit: Also (sorry, I get these kind of questions almost non-stop while reading threads) if Silencer uses last word on alchemist, and alchemist uses unstable concoction, does starting the concoction proc last word? Along the same vein, if Silencer casts last word on Alchemist after Alchemist activates unstable concoction, does throwing the concoction proc last word? Additionally, do ults like Lone Druid and Alch proc last word?
I don't think anyone saw this so I'll just post it again.
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EPT
