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Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 04:41 Whole wrote:On July 04 2013 01:16 xAdra wrote:
Possible to play Chen effectively in pubs? What do you guys think? I've had about 20 games as Chen, half of them pubs, and while the early game is fun, normally something just doesn't work out, like them not understanding I am strongest at the early stages of the game, and dragging it out so that my impact becomes minimal. Chen's perfectly doable in pubs. While I'm not trying to brag, I'm 102W-68L with Chen, and I'd say about half of those games are solo queue pubs, and probably most of those games are in duo queues where me and one other friend aren't trying to get the "sick ass pubstomps" going, we just feel like playing DotA all pick and pick whatever we want (in my case, Chen). And the benefit of being a good Chen player is that you typically get lots of friend requests and commendations. I made friends with two 4-man stacks just by playing Chen solo and I have a bunch of random friends to play with. So yea, you might not get a 420% win rate with a 69:1 KDA ratio, but overall, it's an amazing experience...and it's kind of cool to be a support and have a decent amount of gold because you're jungling. After really getting comfortable with the mechanics of Chen, I learned that you need to be a leader in pubs. After I got used to Chen mechanics, I used to be pretty damn good at creep blocking for ganks and chaining 3 creep CC's and all that fun stuff, but I realized we were still losing and behind in towers. Swapped up my item build a little (I recommend Courier AND Wards, Smoke, Two GG Branches, 1 Tango), and started playing a more active role in the game instead of just getting cool ganks every once in a while. Without trying to spend an hour typing this post (because I got to go in 30 minutes), I'll try to break it down on how to approach pubs. This is assuming that you won't have picks such as Sniper mid, Spectre and Phantom Assassin bot farm, and Anti-Mage solo offlane, and they're all going Bfury. I'm going to assume that you're going to have a somewhat balanced lineup. Now you don't have to pick Chen into the perfect team. A lot of times, I first pick him because he is never really "bad", but just sub-optimal sometimes. After picks are made and you picked Chen, go do your normal thing for the first few levels. Now while you're right clicking shit (because the actual jungling part of Chen isn't hard), think about who is in your safe lane. Is it something like CK & AA (a really good kill lane), Spectre and Dazzle (a very defensive lane), or Jugg and Venomancer (a really good pushing lane...also kill lane lol). Also consider the enemy and how likely it is to kill them or take them out of the lane. (Buy dusts if they have invis!) If it's a good kill lane, well go gank it. Use the smoke, ping a lot or use voice chat, and then have your team set you up, then instant kill. But wait there's more! Unless it's still really early on, push the tower right after. I don't care if you don't have the amazing Troll Warlord, Wildkin, and Satyr pushing creep squad, all of your creeps are good at pushing because at the very least, they can tank the tower. I generally use 10 minutes as a benchmark of when you should take the safe lane tower...assuming it's a carry that wants free farm a little longer. If it's some carry who is down to go 5 man some other towers, then just take it. If it's a defensive lane to farm up a Spectre or something, only try to pounce on the enemy when they're being really aggressive. If it's a push lane, you can attempt to gank, but aim to force the enemy out rather than killing. Or you can just walk into the lane and push it if they don't have good anti push. Do the same process for mid, except maybe have a support come roam with you if you don't think you can do it alone. Also, a very effective tactic to do on mid lane is to walk in and push it when they're trying to gank. You can usually outright kill their tower in 1-3 attempts. Now don't sweat it if you're team is ultra defensive and you feel like you're an idiot for picking an aggressive Chen pick. If you cannot get any ganks going, then farm! Chen can make a huge impact with an early Mek. A 15 minute Mek is usually my timing because that is my preferred way of balancing my ganking and farming, but if you can't gank, that just means you can guarantee yourself a 10 minute Mek. There are no special tactics to this, you just need to sit in the jungle for 10 minutes straight and it'll come. Now when you have your early Mek, whether it be 10 minutes or 15 minutes, start asking your team to come push. Unless an obvious opportunity presents itself, push the safe lane, ask the support (and if it's some early game carry like Jugg or Luna) something along the lines of "Hey, lets go get mid now". Push the mid lane, ask the mid lane "Hey, lets go gank their carry and push their safe lane." Now somewhere along those lines, the enemy team should mass TP in, and a huge team fight will happen...well you did your job! You forced an early fight as Chen, which plays into your hands. And when it's 20-25 minutes and under and only one team has a Mek...the team with the Mek usually wins. Remember the poem: Whatever happens, we have got
The Mekanism and they have not. And two more tips before I go. Ask your carry (if it's someone like Jugg/Luna/ect.) to go early game builds like Yasha & Drums instead of farming items (like HotD and Bfury). And late game, to stay relevant, focus on aura creeps like Alpha Wolves, Ice Ogres, Kobold Taskmasters (the speed aura) rather than CC. Trolls are always good though because net goes through BKB. tl;dr: Communicate with your team heavily to gank and push early. If you cannot gank, farm for a 10 minute Mek to steamroll down towers right after you have the Mek sent. If they listen, you get a lot of friends and win.
wow that was not a simple answer lol
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On July 04 2013 15:04 Belisarius wrote:
I cannot stack the radiant mid hard camp past 3 to save my life.
If I get trolls and hellbears, it seems to become functionally impossible. The big hellbear has turned around and gone home before the range creeps are even out of the spawn box.
Are you supposed to be able to go higher than 3? What are the times? And can you do it with a melee like DS?
the most i think ive gotten for stacks is 4. cant recall if ive gotten 5 after the patch. theoretically you could stack up to 6 with bat but its very hard. the problem with the radiant hard camp is that the box is so damn big, so u cant run down. with ds i would vacuum the trees actually, and run towards the easy camp or towards the rune. but i imagine you would be able to do it with any other hero as long as you dont run downwards.
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On July 04 2013 15:12 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 04:41 Whole wrote:On July 04 2013 01:16 xAdra wrote:
Possible to play Chen effectively in pubs? What do you guys think? I've had about 20 games as Chen, half of them pubs, and while the early game is fun, normally something just doesn't work out, like them not understanding I am strongest at the early stages of the game, and dragging it out so that my impact becomes minimal. Chen's perfectly doable in pubs. While I'm not trying to brag, I'm 102W-68L with Chen, and I'd say about half of those games are solo queue pubs, and probably most of those games are in duo queues where me and one other friend aren't trying to get the "sick ass pubstomps" going, we just feel like playing DotA all pick and pick whatever we want (in my case, Chen). And the benefit of being a good Chen player is that you typically get lots of friend requests and commendations. I made friends with two 4-man stacks just by playing Chen solo and I have a bunch of random friends to play with. So yea, you might not get a 420% win rate with a 69:1 KDA ratio, but overall, it's an amazing experience...and it's kind of cool to be a support and have a decent amount of gold because you're jungling. After really getting comfortable with the mechanics of Chen, I learned that you need to be a leader in pubs. After I got used to Chen mechanics, I used to be pretty damn good at creep blocking for ganks and chaining 3 creep CC's and all that fun stuff, but I realized we were still losing and behind in towers. Swapped up my item build a little (I recommend Courier AND Wards, Smoke, Two GG Branches, 1 Tango), and started playing a more active role in the game instead of just getting cool ganks every once in a while. Without trying to spend an hour typing this post (because I got to go in 30 minutes), I'll try to break it down on how to approach pubs. This is assuming that you won't have picks such as Sniper mid, Spectre and Phantom Assassin bot farm, and Anti-Mage solo offlane, and they're all going Bfury. I'm going to assume that you're going to have a somewhat balanced lineup. Now you don't have to pick Chen into the perfect team. A lot of times, I first pick him because he is never really "bad", but just sub-optimal sometimes. After picks are made and you picked Chen, go do your normal thing for the first few levels. Now while you're right clicking shit (because the actual jungling part of Chen isn't hard), think about who is in your safe lane. Is it something like CK & AA (a really good kill lane), Spectre and Dazzle (a very defensive lane), or Jugg and Venomancer (a really good pushing lane...also kill lane lol). Also consider the enemy and how likely it is to kill them or take them out of the lane. (Buy dusts if they have invis!) If it's a good kill lane, well go gank it. Use the smoke, ping a lot or use voice chat, and then have your team set you up, then instant kill. But wait there's more! Unless it's still really early on, push the tower right after. I don't care if you don't have the amazing Troll Warlord, Wildkin, and Satyr pushing creep squad, all of your creeps are good at pushing because at the very least, they can tank the tower. I generally use 10 minutes as a benchmark of when you should take the safe lane tower...assuming it's a carry that wants free farm a little longer. If it's some carry who is down to go 5 man some other towers, then just take it. If it's a defensive lane to farm up a Spectre or something, only try to pounce on the enemy when they're being really aggressive. If it's a push lane, you can attempt to gank, but aim to force the enemy out rather than killing. Or you can just walk into the lane and push it if they don't have good anti push. Do the same process for mid, except maybe have a support come roam with you if you don't think you can do it alone. Also, a very effective tactic to do on mid lane is to walk in and push it when they're trying to gank. You can usually outright kill their tower in 1-3 attempts. Now don't sweat it if you're team is ultra defensive and you feel like you're an idiot for picking an aggressive Chen pick. If you cannot get any ganks going, then farm! Chen can make a huge impact with an early Mek. A 15 minute Mek is usually my timing because that is my preferred way of balancing my ganking and farming, but if you can't gank, that just means you can guarantee yourself a 10 minute Mek. There are no special tactics to this, you just need to sit in the jungle for 10 minutes straight and it'll come. Now when you have your early Mek, whether it be 10 minutes or 15 minutes, start asking your team to come push. Unless an obvious opportunity presents itself, push the safe lane, ask the support (and if it's some early game carry like Jugg or Luna) something along the lines of "Hey, lets go get mid now". Push the mid lane, ask the mid lane "Hey, lets go gank their carry and push their safe lane." Now somewhere along those lines, the enemy team should mass TP in, and a huge team fight will happen...well you did your job! You forced an early fight as Chen, which plays into your hands. And when it's 20-25 minutes and under and only one team has a Mek...the team with the Mek usually wins. Remember the poem: Whatever happens, we have got
The Mekanism and they have not. And two more tips before I go. Ask your carry (if it's someone like Jugg/Luna/ect.) to go early game builds like Yasha & Drums instead of farming items (like HotD and Bfury). And late game, to stay relevant, focus on aura creeps like Alpha Wolves, Ice Ogres, Kobold Taskmasters (the speed aura) rather than CC. Trolls are always good though because net goes through BKB. tl;dr: Communicate with your team heavily to gank and push early. If you cannot gank, farm for a 10 minute Mek to steamroll down towers right after you have the Mek sent. If they listen, you get a lot of friends and win. wow that was not a simple answer lol
How to play Chen is not a simple question 8)
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On July 04 2013 05:50 InfectedGoat wrote:
In general, for junglers like Ursa, is it better to go back to fountain or to deliver regen with the courier
Ever since people recommended max earthshock builds, I've found bottle ursa to be really sick. Haste, dd, invis are really dangerous on you, and you can stack hard camps and earthshock them down at level 5 or 7.
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I've started playing meepo recently, and after a couple of games have realised itemization wise I don't understand the options - wheras on most other heroes I have a feel for whats good vs what etc.
So far I've just built basi->tranq->mek->vlad/upgraded boots(either treads or travels if game is going well)->agh->reaver/AC->reaver
Obviously the auras from mek/vlad(/AC) are all great, but is it always worth going for them? I know blink is a popular meepo item so which games should I get that, ganky/splitpushy games when we're behind? Is reaver x2 always more worthwhile than reaver/eaglesong. Are there any other good aura items (I guess drum could be good?) or orbs that are especially good on him (mb skadi?)?
Edit: Also I played meepo mid - is it worth putting him there for the fast 6 or could it cost the rest of your team too much xp (assuming you have another player who could go mid instead)?
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mek used to be popular on meepo when there was no tranquils. nowadays, you dont need it. tranquils gives a bit of armour and a lot of regen. honestly i think its kinda broken that the tranquils active works on all the clones, but then again meepo would be totally shit without it. you should pretty much go blink every game with him, as its the only real reliable way for you to solo kill anyone unless they are out of position. vlads can be gotten as a late game item, but i dont think theres a place for it anywhere before your 3rd, because you just dont benefit from it enough. aghanims benefits are just too good and you need the reaver badly too. so youre looking at vlads/AC as your 4th item (excluding boots). also when u have 5 meepos doing 100+ dmg per hit late game, youre rarely going to be wishing you had just a bit more dmg. youre kinda like a naix in the sense that if you can hit 1 guy like mad you will kill him for sure, but if they can kite you and stuff no amount of damage will help you. better to just get another reaver if needed so you can throw nets and slow people without dying
and meepo mid is really gimmicky. if youre against another melee you might find some lvls depending on who it is, but in most cases you will get outlaned. would only recommend if you were in low pool or something and you know youre gonna win anyway, otherwise give to a different hero.
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For Meepo, as a rule of thumb: If they have lots of magical damage, then go HP primarily. Lots of physical, go vlad/AC.
Please don't go two reavers, you don't have infinite slots. Rather upgrade your reaver to a heart later if you really need the HP. Rather go an eye of skadi or something which will also give you 25 str along with lots of other nice stuff.
I would never say that mek is a bad item on meepo. It enables you to fight earlier than with other items, and it enables you to solo roshan much earlier. If I'm getting great farm early I usually skip it though.
Also check out Cyx's awesome Meepo-guide:
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Honestly, the ags upgrade is the larger part of what made mek outdated (although there may still be some times when it is beneficial). Even with tranquils, pre 100% stats with ags you didn't really have a late game. As such, it makes sense to buy aura items (which help your clones) and pushing items (which helps you use your XP advantage to win the game before you became AoE food). But with 100% stats with ags, you can become really tanky via reaver, and still deal damage late game via manta/eth/eagle/AC. As such, often you just want to get items that are really good on you (blink, boots, sometimes things like vlads etc) before going into ags then late game items.
Normally I get tranquils asap, then disassemble them when I want vlads and make treads. Tranquils are great for laning and for when you have a couple of extra meepos slowly jungling, but they can quite quickly outlive their usefulness (especially when you have something like vlads which gives regen via lifesteal). Since the extra components of tranquils are used in vlads, it makes it a quite convenient time to upgrade.
Meepo mid is a pub thing. If the opponent knew what they were doing, they would shut you down quite badly. Meepo has terrible base damage, poof requires you to take a lot of harass if you want to use it to get last hits (because it's channeled), and he is a melee. Poof is quite an efficient nuke, and he has good base defensive stats, so going bottle could make it work vs a weaker laner. It's still probably your best bet if you are solo queueing - going into a 2v2 with a questionable start isn't a reliable way to get a good start, and meepo NEEDS a good start. If you are queueing with a friend who is willing to go dedicated support though, then its probably better to go safelane though. In terms of a competitive pick, he has to be put into a trilane with supports not taking any xp from lane and when there is no chance of the opponents going offensive trilane (aka when the meta changes).
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Meepo mid isn't a pub thing. You put him there because it's the safest thing to do in terms of laning. He might get stomped but he'll always get xp.
If you put him in a safelane your supports have to pull/roam 24/7 which isn't terrible. It gets terrible when the enemy offensive trilanes you which they'll do if you have a meepo in safelane. Then you don't get xp fast enough for the crucial level 6 which delays your 11 barring any weird developments in the game.
Sure you can put him safelane but you have to be 100% sure they won't offensive trilane you, it's probably a situation where you're the one doing the offensive trilane.
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
Well I'm going to include that Chen post as a miniguide in the guide index. Thanks, whole.
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Questions:
1. if you put wards in creep camp spawn areas, it does make the camp area not spawn creeps right? (to counter furion easy jungle farm spots)
2. Can you buy a dust of appearance to destroy enemy wards? to prevent number 1 above as buying a ward and planting it would not solve your number 1 (above) problem.
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
1) Yes.
2) Dust doesn't reveal wards; only gems and sentries do.
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On July 04 2013 23:47 woreyour wrote:
Questions:
1. if you put wards in creep camp spawn areas, it does make the camp area not spawn creeps right? (to counter furion easy jungle farm spots)
2. Can you buy a dust of appearance to destroy enemy wards? to prevent number 1 above as buying a ward and planting it would not solve your number 1 (above) problem.
1. Putting a ward inside a camp's spawn hitbox will make it not spawn yeah.
2. Wards, even blocking wards are usually dewarded with sentries (not sure dust even reveals wards actually). It requires some knowledge of warding though as you need to put the sentry outside the camp's hitbox but make sure the detection range still hits the enemy ward. Usually the enemy ward is just smackdab in the middle of your camp (not in the bushes) and you can easily deward it. If your opponent know what they're doing however they put the ward in the bushes, and at this moment you really need to know what the hitboxes look like to deward.
This has some information on ward blocking:
http://www.dotafire.com/dota-2/guide/common-early-game-jungle-wards-and-how-to-destroy-them-4384
Can't find a map of the hitboxes though.
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On July 04 2013 21:28 Andr3 wrote:
Meepo mid isn't a pub thing. You put him there because it's the safest thing to do in terms of laning. He might get stomped but he'll always get xp.
If you put him in a safelane your supports have to pull/roam 24/7 which isn't terrible. It gets terrible when the enemy offensive trilanes you which they'll do if you have a meepo in safelane. Then you don't get xp fast enough for the crucial level 6 which delays your 11 barring any weird developments in the game.
Sure you can put him safelane but you have to be 100% sure they won't offensive trilane you, it's probably a situation where you're the one doing the offensive trilane.
just because meepo will benefit from the solo exp it doesnt make mid a viable lane for him. whoever goes into mid against him is going to have one of the easiest lanes of his life. imagine any ganking hero (qop, ta, pudge, nyx, sf, puck etc) with tons of farm and an early lvl 6. sure your meepo got lvl 6 and will try and catch up with exp, but the rest of your lanes are getting buttraped by their mid. not to mention that most of those heroes can also solo kill you faster than you could poof your meepo to safety anyway. good luck afk farming in the jungles
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The alternative is putting him into a safelane where he doesn't get the xp he needs. Even if the enemy has a terrible offensive tri they win it just by being there as if Meepo gets a delayed start he's screwed.
And meepo mid isn't all that bad, it depends on the matchup but with an oov and pms you can trade hits with most heroes really effectively.
As I said the best case scenario is where you're sure you won't get offensive trilane or you're doing one, but when you're not sure putting meepo mid is the best choice as it gives you the most safety in terms of laning. And never understimate meepo when he hits 6-7, if you go geostrike build with an oov your attacks do shitload of dmg.
Also, IIRC fnatic put notail mid in some game but can't find it, can anyone confirm/deny? Meepo is really a hero that needs xp, farm isn't that important in the early levels.
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Can someone confirm if these deward positions still work after the nerf to sentries?
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The nerf has nothing to do with blocking, it's being in the box that counts, not seeing it
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On July 05 2013 01:23 Qbek wrote:
The nerf has nothing to do with blocking, it's being in the box that counts, not seeing it
Well, you didn't read what he said.
@Freezer: Some of those recommended sentry spots no longer cover "all" the options, but that particular guide is pretty incomplete anyways. The recommended sentry spot on dire pull is simply wrong, but the correct one still covers the entire camp (placement is now mega-precise though). Radiant pull now requires 4(!!!) sentries to deward properly, but generally 2 will do it.
Basically, if it says "precise" on the sentry placement its probably wrong now.
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I'm just braindead lately
Nevermind me
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On July 04 2013 16:45 igotmyown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 05:50 InfectedGoat wrote:
In general, for junglers like Ursa, is it better to go back to fountain or to deliver regen with the courier Ever since people recommended max earthshock builds, I've found bottle ursa to be really sick. Haste, dd, invis are really dangerous on you, and you can stack hard camps and earthshock them down at level 5 or 7.
Actually i am the only one suggesting earthshock max builds if im not wrong lol, fits my aggressive nature. Most people recommend 1/4/4 while i recommend 4/1/4.
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EPT
