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On July 03 2013 18:12 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 17:43 mizU wrote:
Especially with the bottle crow change, you shouldn't be hogging courier to bottle crow. It's fine to use it a couple times, but you're expecting to get 100% courier usage, that's pretty selfish and can really screw your team. Actually, the expectation should normally be that the mid laner is using the courier almost exclusively. The number of exceptions is small enough for a mid expecting to be able to bottle crow to not be considered selfish. The major one that comes to my mind is a jungler that needs a particular item to continue jungling (e.g. Tranquil Boots). Most cases where the sidelane actually needs to courier items is misplay on the part of the sidelaner in pubs (e.g. support not starting with wards and sending them later), and not the fault of the mid laner.
In higher MMR games, yes, regular pubs, not so much.
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Bearded Elder29906 Posts
You expect to get crow for mid lane exclusively? No in pubs that ain't gonna happen. Everyone is fighting for courier, just to send himself 2 branches or a salve (yeah happens a lot).
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On July 03 2013 19:41 Kayzer. wrote:
Hi, I'm just coming back to the game.
I haven't played in a while and I haven't been following the scene or pro matches at all. However, I love this new in-game-guide-feature where the game basically tells you what to do. And this is where I begin to wonder:
I kinda like to play Doombringer but being a noob I don't understand why all the "good" (high rated) guides seem to prefer his scorched earth skill over LVL?Death in the early game.
Has it to do with jungling? I usually don't do that (is Doom even viable at a decent/casual skill level as a laner?).
LVL?Death seems to be quite strong (assuming the enemies have the right level, but that is pretty much inevitable) and usually helps me or my team to score a few kills while I almost never use the scorched ground as I rather spend mana on Devour and/or the Ultimate.
Thank you in advance.
I think it got to do with timing, you most likely want to have it at level 1 when you are level 6 (since most enemy will also be level 6) then you can get a big nuke from LVL?Death. Also since 6.75 it deals 20% of max HP as damage instead of the flat 275 so it will be more usefull late game when enemy have high HP instead of early game
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On July 03 2013 19:41 Kayzer. wrote:
Hi, I'm just coming back to the game.
I haven't played in a while and I haven't been following the scene or pro matches at all. However, I love this new in-game-guide-feature where the game basically tells you what to do. And this is where I begin to wonder:
I kinda like to play Doombringer but being a noob I don't understand why all the "good" (high rated) guides seem to prefer his scorched earth skill over LVL?Death in the early game.
Has it to do with jungling? I usually don't do that (is Doom even viable at a decent/casual skill level as a laner?).
LVL?Death seems to be quite strong (assuming the enemies have the right level, but that is pretty much inevitable) and usually helps me or my team to score a few kills while I almost never use the scorched ground as I rather spend mana on Devour and/or the Ultimate.
Thank you in advance.
Firstly (and probably most importantly), Doom doesn't have that much mana. The mana cost of SE is only 60/65/70/75, while LD is 110 and on a short cooldown (the short cooldown meaning that it is hard to use effectively without a lot of mana). As such, generally LD is leveled up when your fairly high int growth has kicked in, letting you cast it a couple of times in a fight as well as everything else.
Secondly, its damage scales with enemy hp. At the start of the game, sometimes getting 20% extra damage is still good, but if you are fighting someone with 3000 hp that is 875 damage on a 8 second cooldown. Its more powerful as the game goes on, so generally you should get it later on. Where as SE gives flat damage/heal - total damage dealt/healed is 120/216/336/480. While it is a DoT/HoT, its still quite powerful (and not reliant on the enemies levels).
Thirdly, it helps you chase/escape. 16% MS is a fair amount.
Fourthly, if you have allies with arcane boots then you can use the spare mana for SE as a quite efficient self heal (1 mana ~= 6.4 hp)
Finally, multiple levels in it don't help that much. One point in LD lets you have a mini stun for interrupting TPs without using doom, and is still a fairly efficient nuke if you are hitting the right levels. 3 additional levels only give 150 extra damage and the change in bonus level.
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On July 03 2013 19:58 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 18:12 TheYango wrote:On July 03 2013 17:43 mizU wrote:
Especially with the bottle crow change, you shouldn't be hogging courier to bottle crow. It's fine to use it a couple times, but you're expecting to get 100% courier usage, that's pretty selfish and can really screw your team. Actually, the expectation should normally be that the mid laner is using the courier almost exclusively. The number of exceptions is small enough for a mid expecting to be able to bottle crow to not be considered selfish. The major one that comes to my mind is a jungler that needs a particular item to continue jungling (e.g. Tranquil Boots). Most cases where the sidelane actually needs to courier items is misplay on the part of the sidelaner in pubs (e.g. support not starting with wards and sending them later), and not the fault of the mid laner. In higher MMR games, yes, regular pubs, not so much.
Eh, I dont completely agree with this statement - occasionally you will hit hard lanes on the sidelane and need tranquils as well. I've won lanes merely because I crowed my tranquils over early. (and not starting with a RoP, which happens)
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On July 03 2013 18:17 woreyour wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 17:56 Dragnmn wrote:
The bottle crow nerf is that the courier will travel 30% slower per empty bottle you have on it. It makes bottle crowing an even bigger courier hog and ridiculously inefficient. Thanks, But Whole's suggestion can still work with 1 charge left. I think I can still spam the hell with 2 charges. I like poison spam with alchemist. Another thing I do would be leaving my courier on one rune spot (if there are 2 couriers mid we would always know here the runes are). Again this is just pub games and I it is sad if there is no option to unshare your courier.
Well I'm mega late to this party but please note that it is substantially more efficient to use ALL the charges in your bottle and suffer the reduced courier speed, since you get 50% more regen than just using 2 charges, while the courier speed loss only applies to a portion of the trip and it's not that slow if you save burst for it.
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Possible to play Chen effectively in pubs? What do you guys think? I've had about 20 games as Chen, half of them pubs, and while the early game is fun, normally something just doesn't work out, like them not understanding I am strongest at the early stages of the game, and dragging it out so that my impact becomes minimal.
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Dota needs creeps with windwalk so you can go Backdoor chen. Dominate a WW creep, run it to their base, BoT to it, pop necrobook and go crazy on their base. Bonus points for dominating one of their lane creeps in the process to disable Backdoor protection.
PS: this is at least semi-doable with non-invis creeps if you are a ninja with it and hide it in trees somewhere. The issue being the amount of gold required (BoT + Necrobook aint cheap).
PPS: Get a buddy to come with you and then use chen's send-back to save him once they TP. Obviously your life is forfeit but who cares you are a chen :D
PPPS: I'm not sure I'd really recommend this playstyle but if you are a late-game chen struggling to achieve things this is one way to force the issue.
PPPPS: If you are lame and boring you can just smoke your whole creep army and run at their base when they aren't around. Chen being off the map isn't exactly a "warning sign" to enemies. No BoT's required. Did I mention only lame people do this? Don't forget you need to dominate a lane creep so one of your creep menagerie may die depending on how many you have. Helm of the Dominator is a plus in this version of the strat.
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Chen is definitely a hero that can be played effectively in pubs. However, the impetus is generally on you to identify how to utilize your early game power. Mainly this is achieved by ganking the safe/mid lane to give them a good start, but occasionally there are circumstances where you might have to be a bit more passive and pick up an early mek/arcane boots etc. (abandoned offlane/really difficult to kill mid laner like qop etc.)
Starting out with a smoke is highly recommended along with lots of practice on how to utilize different creeps. It's important that you become confident in knowing your heroes/creep damage output and kill potential on opposing heroes. Although Chen does drop off in the mid and late-game, you can still save team mates using test of faith/hand of god, along with picking up creeps with auras (alpha wolf/wildkin/centaur). Creeps can still be used to stack ancients or scout rosh and you still have relatively decent farming speed with your creeps.
In late game scenarios, vlads/necro 3/aghs are pretty good pickups if you're quite farmed, but ghost/force/drums are also nice utility items for your team. In short, you want to provide help secure a good start for your #1-2 so that when you do start dropping off, they're ready to kick in for the mid to lategame.
Remember to kill secure with test of faith in pubs though. Can't trust those random carries.
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This might be more of a technical issue, but when I try a new hero I like to vs AI at least once to get a feel for them.
In the AI games my health/mana bar doesn't show up (nor does it when I click allied/enemy heroes) so I can only gage things by looking over my hero at the floating health/mana bar to get a rough estimation. The bar I'm talking about is the one right over your skills. Is this a bug and do other people have this same issue? It never occurs in normal games.
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On July 04 2013 03:39 Jonoman92 wrote:
This might be more of a technical issue, but when I try a new hero I like to vs AI at least once to get a feel for them.
In the AI games my health/mana bar doesn't show up (nor does it when I click allied/enemy heroes) so I can only gage things by looking over my main hero at the floating health/mana bar to get a rough estimation. The bar I'm talking about is the one right over your skills. Is this a bug and do other people have this same issue? It never occurs in normal games.
I've had this occur to me when spectating games but never outside of that. Reconnecting to the game usually fixes it for me. I'm not sure how you would fix it since it sounds like you are playing on localhost.
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United States47024 Posts
Type 'hud_sf_reload dota_sf_hud_actionpanel' in the console.
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On July 04 2013 03:39 Jonoman92 wrote:
This might be more of a technical issue, but when I try a new hero I like to vs AI at least once to get a feel for them.
In the AI games my health/mana bar doesn't show up (nor does it when I click allied/enemy heroes) so I can only gage things by looking over my hero at the floating health/mana bar to get a rough estimation. The bar I'm talking about is the one right over your skills. Is this a bug and do other people have this same issue? It never occurs in normal games.
Happens in 80% of my games, BOT or MM.
It fixes itself after a death. And then it has a chance to randomly reoccur every time I die, but this chance is small.
Annoys me a hell of a lot, but I don't know how to fix it.
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On July 04 2013 03:47 TheYango wrote:
Type 'hud_sf_reload dota_sf_hud_actionpanel' in the console.
Thanks, will give this a try next time.
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On July 04 2013 01:16 xAdra wrote:
Possible to play Chen effectively in pubs? What do you guys think? I've had about 20 games as Chen, half of them pubs, and while the early game is fun, normally something just doesn't work out, like them not understanding I am strongest at the early stages of the game, and dragging it out so that my impact becomes minimal.
Chen's perfectly doable in pubs. While I'm not trying to brag, I'm 102W-68L with Chen, and I'd say about half of those games are solo queue pubs, and probably most of those games are in duo queues where me and one other friend aren't trying to get the "sick ass pubstomps" going, we just feel like playing DotA all pick and pick whatever we want (in my case, Chen). And the benefit of being a good Chen player is that you typically get lots of friend requests and commendations. I made friends with two 4-man stacks just by playing Chen solo and I have a bunch of random friends to play with. So yea, you might not get a 420% win rate with a 69:1 KDA ratio, but overall, it's an amazing experience...and it's kind of cool to be a support and have a decent amount of gold because you're jungling.
After really getting comfortable with the mechanics of Chen, I learned that you need to be a leader in pubs. After I got used to Chen mechanics, I used to be pretty damn good at creep blocking for ganks and chaining 3 creep CC's and all that fun stuff, but I realized we were still losing and behind in towers. Swapped up my item build a little (I recommend Courier AND Wards, Smoke, Two GG Branches, 1 Tango), and started playing a more active role in the game instead of just getting cool ganks every once in a while. Without trying to spend an hour typing this post (because I got to go in 30 minutes), I'll try to break it down on how to approach pubs. This is assuming that you won't have picks such as Sniper mid, Spectre and Phantom Assassin bot farm, and Anti-Mage solo offlane, and they're all going Bfury. I'm going to assume that you're going to have a somewhat balanced lineup. Now you don't have to pick Chen into the perfect team. A lot of times, I first pick him because he is never really "bad", but just sub-optimal sometimes.
After picks are made and you picked Chen, go do your normal thing for the first few levels. Now while you're right clicking shit (because the actual jungling part of Chen isn't hard), think about who is in your safe lane. Is it something like CK & AA (a really good kill lane), Spectre and Dazzle (a very defensive lane), or Jugg and Venomancer (a really good pushing lane...also kill lane lol). Also consider the enemy and how likely it is to kill them or take them out of the lane. (Buy dusts if they have invis!)
If it's a good kill lane, well go gank it. Use the smoke, ping a lot or use voice chat, and then have your team set you up, then instant kill. But wait there's more! Unless it's still really early on, push the tower right after. I don't care if you don't have the amazing Troll Warlord, Wildkin, and Satyr pushing creep squad, all of your creeps are good at pushing because at the very least, they can tank the tower. I generally use 10 minutes as a benchmark of when you should take the safe lane tower...assuming it's a carry that wants free farm a little longer. If it's some carry who is down to go 5 man some other towers, then just take it.
If it's a defensive lane to farm up a Spectre or something, only try to pounce on the enemy when they're being really aggressive. If it's a push lane, you can attempt to gank, but aim to force the enemy out rather than killing. Or you can just walk into the lane and push it if they don't have good anti push.
Do the same process for mid, except maybe have a support come roam with you if you don't think you can do it alone. Also, a very effective tactic to do on mid lane is to walk in and push it when they're trying to gank. You can usually outright kill their tower in 1-3 attempts.
Now don't sweat it if you're team is ultra defensive and you feel like you're an idiot for picking an aggressive Chen pick. If you cannot get any ganks going, then farm! Chen can make a huge impact with an early Mek. A 15 minute Mek is usually my timing because that is my preferred way of balancing my ganking and farming, but if you can't gank, that just means you can guarantee yourself a 10 minute Mek. There are no special tactics to this, you just need to sit in the jungle for 10 minutes straight and it'll come.
Now when you have your early Mek, whether it be 10 minutes or 15 minutes, start asking your team to come push. Unless an obvious opportunity presents itself, push the safe lane, ask the support (and if it's some early game carry like Jugg or Luna) something along the lines of "Hey, lets go get mid now". Push the mid lane, ask the mid lane "Hey, lets go gank their carry and push their safe lane." Now somewhere along those lines, the enemy team should mass TP in, and a huge team fight will happen...well you did your job! You forced an early fight as Chen, which plays into your hands. And when it's 20-25 minutes and under and only one team has a Mek...the team with the Mek usually wins. Remember the poem:
Whatever happens, we have got
The Mekanism and they have not.
And two more tips before I go. Ask your carry (if it's someone like Jugg/Luna/ect.) to go early game builds like Yasha & Drums instead of farming items (like HotD and Bfury). And late game, to stay relevant, focus on aura creeps like Alpha Wolves, Ice Ogres, Kobold Taskmasters (the speed aura) rather than CC. Trolls are always good though because net goes through BKB.
tl;dr: Communicate with your team heavily to gank and push early. If you cannot gank, farm for a 10 minute Mek to steamroll down towers right after you have the Mek sent. If they listen, you get a lot of friends and win.
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In general, for junglers like Ursa, is it better to go back to fountain or to deliver regen with the courier
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Well ideally for ursa you would deliver yourself tranquil boots on the courier (or acquire them from the side shop). Same with axe really. For a hero like naix though, deliver yourself regen on the courier (assuming it is flying). Even if you don't profit in gold, the extra experience that time in the jungle buys you is crucial.
If you need mana to continue jungling, then you probably either have to go back to base (nature's prophet) or should be acquiring a soul ring (enigma) or bottle (dark seer). Obviously if you get a bottle you will be bottle crowing. Make sure your mid is informed if they also wish to bottle crow.
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A question about laning and roles.
Could mid Earthshaker ever be a reasonable option? Id think he'd be able to possibly get enough farm with fissure/enchant spam with aftershock bonus... It sounds silly as I type it, but I'm curious if anyone has experience with this, or if this happened in the original dota days.
Also, could a strength based Morphling ever make a reasonable support? A strength based adaptive strike + replicate would make for a good stun + a decent source of damage. I assume this would be offset by the horrid lane presence that he would have in the first 3 levels? (I was thinking of this as a misleading pick in a draft... I think it's probably not viable, but I'm wondering if anyone has evidence to the contrary!)
Just curious!
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Mid ES:
-below average last hitting ability
-can cast fissure once with base mana, fissure not mana efficient spell
-can at level 2 use enchant/aftershock for 50 aoe damage short ranged stun and 1 rightclick with roughly +30 damage
Not likely that it will ever be worth doing it.
On the other hand strength based morph has some merits. Not many and definitely not as support. Just "having a stun" is not enough for a support hero.
He will at later stages have something ridiculous like 3k+ hp and slightly average dps, which, when you think about it, is really a waste. Staying strength dominant is not exactly useful or sensible, considering he can switch his stats around quite quickly.
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I cannot stack the radiant mid hard camp past 3 to save my life.
If I get trolls and hellbears, it seems to become functionally impossible. The big hellbear has turned around and gone home before the range creeps are even out of the spawn box.
Are you supposed to be able to go higher than 3? What are the times? And can you do it with a melee like DS?
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EPT
