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United States47024 Posts
On October 30 2013 05:46 Kuroeeah wrote:
Dendi utilizes the whole "fear what you can't see" thing. Hiding in the fog, when he decided is best to move around the map by smoking and the whole seizing the opportunity thing until he snowballs.
And he does that extremely well--it's what makes his Pudge impressive. Even when everyone KNOWS about the terror of Dendi Pudge and play ridiculously safe when the first night comes, he can still exploit these to find kills.
But I don't think that kind of map sense falls at all under "individual plays" the way it was being referred to on the last page in relation to Sylar's ability as a carry player.
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On October 30 2013 05:41 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 05:38 TheYango wrote:
I just disagree with the idea that mechanics and small-scale execution is the greatest differentiating factor in player skill. General game understanding, evaluating the state of the game, map movement, etc. just feel more impactful to me.
Actually *hitting* hooks is actually the last thing on the list of things that impresses me about Dendi Pudge. The top two are probably effective solo smoke usage that still finds kill opportunities when the enemy plays deathly scared the first night, and good overall development of his own tempo that ensures that even at 30-40 minutes he still has items and levels when most Pudges end up *sacrificing* their development when they gank and end up underfarmed/underleveled in a longer game. Most of Dendi's hooks "skillshots" are pretty standard stuff you can find in pubs any days. Agreed - he does find a good amount of farm for how much roaming he chooses to do.
I agree with this. When I play pudge in pubs my hooks are on point. I have a bunch of replays with blind hooks or needle threads that could go on any highlight video. (admittedly they are a bit less common than Dendi's haha)
But I definitely struggle around the mid game and the bottom line is that my ganks are just not as efficient. I take too much time waiting for that setup or misreading the map and walking into the jungle and finding no one which just results in lost farm/exp time. It's the game sense of Dendi that almost without fail, if he leaves mid, he will have a kill and be back in lane farming in under two minutes or less.
It's that kind of efficient rotation that I think really separates the pros from the pubstars.
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On October 30 2013 05:47 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 05:38 Kuroeeah wrote:On October 30 2013 05:29 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 30 2013 05:24 Kuroeeah wrote:
I agree with dfs. What personally makes "individual plays" impressive to me is that a player is able to make the best or even turn the odds within an undesirable situation against players a team within a similar skill level. It showcases execution, resourcefulness and thought within a small frame in time.
I'm not really a huge fan of Dendi but one thing I believe he deserves praise for is how consistent he is pulling off clutch plays against very well respectable teams. "Individual plays" isn't everything but within the level of play, where the caliber of teams as well as players can't get any better, i wouldn't define it as a small part of what makes a good player. Yeah, if you make the assumption that the caliber of players can't get better, of course making "big plays" is the only thing that sets people apart. Where did you get the impression that I said the only difference in skill between players are "individual plays"? On October 30 2013 05:29 WolfintheSheep wrote:
In the actual competitive scene, however, the general mechanics of players differ on a very large margin. I disagree. You said "Individual Plays" isn't a small part...when the caliber of teams and players can't get any better. If you need that premise, where the teams and players can't improve, then of course highlight reel plays are a big part. But that's a rather ridiculous premise to start with.
Yes, I did say "individual plays" isn't a small part but how exactly did you equate that to me saying it's the only part?
And also did I say anything about teams/players being incapable of improving themselves? I'm making the argument that there is no better way of showcasing "big plays" when it is executed against teams or players that have proven themselves. The teams invited to Ti3 was indeed the best teams in DotA at that time and what better teams can you showcase impressive individual plays than against them?
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On October 30 2013 05:49 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 05:46 Kuroeeah wrote:
Dendi utilizes the whole "fear what you can't see" thing. Hiding in the fog, when he decided is best to move around the map by smoking and the whole seizing the opportunity thing until he snowballs. And he does that extremely well--it's what makes his Pudge impressive. Even when everyone KNOWS about the terror of Dendi Pudge and play ridiculously safe when the first night comes, he can still exploit these to find kills. But I don't think that kind of map sense falls at all under "individual plays" the way it was being referred to on the last page in relation to Sylar's ability as a carry player.
I would definitely define Dendi as being a clutch player but ironically I wouldn't put his Pudge play under what I would define him as an overall player.
Dendi does not win his Pudge games by having flawless accuracy on his hooks, not even close. By having his opponents play safe would restrict his enemies map movement, farm capability and finally creates very large amount of space for his team. This is apparent when the enemy doesn't see Dendi's presumably over leveled Pudge on the map, it limits the amount of safe options they can do. He creates an advantage by giving space that his teammates would utilize to close out the game.
Well back to the main discussion. Map awareness, decision making, having a good overall perception of where the enemy team is and is moving isn't what I would categorize as an "individual play" and I agree that these factors are more important than a player that is capable of making flashy plays.
I disagree with the assessment that "individual plays" is a small part of what makes a player. Again I go back to the S4 example, he's not a player that is going to be defined as this "flashy solo mid", he's not someone I would characterize as a Dendi but would Alliance have won their final game against Na'Vi if S4 wasn't a player that was capable of executing the "one million dollar coil" (this being an example I would define as an "individual play")?
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
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Dendi's pub winrate with pudge is actually pretty low iirc. That's a team hero.
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I remember this "skill = being able to make spectacular plays" discussion from wc3. Please dota community stay away from that road. It was imho a (maybe) not-so-obvious reason that dumbed down wc3, in the sense that the few new maps that were accepted by the community were small and valued micro much higher than strategy/expanding/game sense.
Just an example: There was a game of a chinese orc (xiaot8 possibly) vs ToD, where this orc got out of a fight with 4 grunts who were around 100hp. He went on to loose that game, and many viewers went "human so imba, this orc showed so much more skill, look how he saved those grunts". But all I thought was: "He tried to fight gryphons (heavy air) with melee units? He so deserved to lose".
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On October 29 2013 22:28 ReignSupreme. wrote:Kaolin is Earth Spirit...
yeah, i was asking if he was a spirit.
no need for ellipsis
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
On October 30 2013 07:17 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 22:28 ReignSupreme. wrote:On October 29 2013 21:19 Targe wrote:On October 29 2013 21:13 739 wrote:http://imgur.com/a/pev9lNext patch with 3 new heroes, both spirits + LC. I'm calling it first ! spirit = kaolin? Kaolin is Earth Spirit... yeah, i was asking if he was a spirit. no need for ellipsis
...
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On October 30 2013 07:39 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 07:17 Targe wrote:On October 29 2013 22:28 ReignSupreme. wrote:On October 29 2013 21:19 Targe wrote:On October 29 2013 21:13 739 wrote:http://imgur.com/a/pev9lNext patch with 3 new heroes, both spirits + LC. I'm calling it first ! spirit = kaolin? Kaolin is Earth Spirit... yeah, i was asking if he was a spirit. no need for ellipsis ...
Mod that doesn't want us to post about hero builds and strategies to stay on topic posts only 3 dots as his post.
What a thread.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
On October 30 2013 07:41 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 07:39 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 30 2013 07:17 Targe wrote:On October 29 2013 22:28 ReignSupreme. wrote:On October 29 2013 21:19 Targe wrote:On October 29 2013 21:13 739 wrote:http://imgur.com/a/pev9lNext patch with 3 new heroes, both spirits + LC. I'm calling it first ! spirit = kaolin? Kaolin is Earth Spirit... yeah, i was asking if he was a spirit. no need for ellipsis ... Mod that doesn't want us to post about hero builds and strategies to stay on topic posts only 3 dots as his post. What a thread.
You seem to be really picking on that. FYI, I was not asking people to get on topic, I was asking people to take their discussion to a topic dedicated to that discussion.
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On October 30 2013 07:45 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 07:41 Comeh wrote:On October 30 2013 07:39 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 30 2013 07:17 Targe wrote:On October 29 2013 22:28 ReignSupreme. wrote:On October 29 2013 21:19 Targe wrote:On October 29 2013 21:13 739 wrote:http://imgur.com/a/pev9lNext patch with 3 new heroes, both spirits + LC. I'm calling it first ! spirit = kaolin? Kaolin is Earth Spirit... yeah, i was asking if he was a spirit. no need for ellipsis ... Mod that doesn't want us to post about hero builds and strategies to stay on topic posts only 3 dots as his post. What a thread. You seem to be really picking on that. FYI, I was not asking people to get on topic, I was asking people to take their discussion to a topic dedicated to that discussion.
If it were any other poster, I would have forgotten it by now (well, except Erasme).
You have a special place in my heart, Feederbolt.
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Feederbolt #1 trash poster EU
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2026, Day ??:
Still no Free to Play Documentary.
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Has anyone else tried Jakiro lately? If so, what do you think of his 'new' orb, the Liquid Fire? I've played a few times the last 2 days and even though I really like the change, it feels awkward. It doesn't feel like any other orb effect, like it has a cast time animation or something. That just me or is anyone else noticing that as well?
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Can you orb walk with that change? Seems like a good change.
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On October 30 2013 07:46 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 07:45 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 30 2013 07:41 Comeh wrote:On October 30 2013 07:39 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 30 2013 07:17 Targe wrote:On October 29 2013 22:28 ReignSupreme. wrote:On October 29 2013 21:19 Targe wrote:On October 29 2013 21:13 739 wrote:http://imgur.com/a/pev9lNext patch with 3 new heroes, both spirits + LC. I'm calling it first ! spirit = kaolin? Kaolin is Earth Spirit... yeah, i was asking if he was a spirit. no need for ellipsis ... Mod that doesn't want us to post about hero builds and strategies to stay on topic posts only 3 dots as his post. What a thread. You seem to be really picking on that. FYI, I was not asking people to get on topic, I was asking people to take their discussion to a topic dedicated to that discussion. If it were any other poster, I would have forgotten it by now (well, except Erasme). You have a special place in my heart, Feederbolt.
Its brolove between two brooooos
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On October 30 2013 05:38 Kuroeeah wrote:[ Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 05:29 WolfintheSheep wrote:
In the actual competitive scene, however, the general mechanics of players differ on a very large margin. I disagree.
It's a pretty interesting discussion. I'd be inclined to disagree with WolfintheSheep's statement as well but it's a tricky one. Apart from the players who are just REALLY good on a particular hero (something like Ferrari 430 invoker) I think most of the players on top teams have similar mechanical skills when it comes to spell usage and hero control and such, no matter if they play support or core roles. Core players will on average be better at laning and lasthitting but that's about it.
In contrast, skill in map awareness, positioning and large-scale game sense seems to differ wildly, but it begs the question how much of that comes from playstyle. A player like Demon is aggressive and seems to always feel like he needs to make something happen. Compare him with a player like TC who would rather wait for the right moment and always keeps the grand scheme of things in mind, even in pubs. I'm pretty sure the latter style makes you win a lot more Dota games. Does winning more make you a better player? Perhaps. Does that mean you're more skilled? I'm not sure 
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can someone help, i just closed dota with task manager and now steam is unable to connect. steam says Could not connect to the Steam Network.
i rebooted my pc incase my internet had fucked it up somehow but i still cannot go online in Steam
did i corrupt Steam by not closing dota properly?
edit: working now, no reason
edit2: im online in Steam but Dota is stuck on Searching for connection...
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
Steam is currently down for me too so I don't think it's just you.
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EPT
