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United States47024 Posts
On October 30 2013 04:06 dfs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 03:39 TheYango wrote:
And "individual plays" are such a small part of what makes a player good. Err... what? Small? Individual play = skill. You don't need to show WoDota every game, but if you can't show good plays you are not a good player.
But the reverse is not necessarily true--being able to show good plays does not automatically make someone a good player.
And the "individual plays" referred to focus particularly on mechanics and playing small scale scenarios (the Bear micro from the game referred to by Kraznaya). "Individual plays" =/= individual play. Individual play encompasses much more than playing out scenarios like that, which is my point.
I just feel in general people overrated Sylar's ability leaving LGD and overstated how much it "hurt" the team for him to leave.
On October 30 2013 04:29 Kipsate wrote:
Xiaotuji is still a downgrade I feel. LGD has changed their playstyle which allows them to do well. In the PL kotl games they still play it doesn't take much to win from the carry player.
I don't disagree, but it clearly didn't cripple the team the way the majority of people expected it to.
The core of the team is the Dream core of Xiao8+Yao+DD. So long as they're playing together, it's the same team.
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Vatican City State2902 Posts
On October 30 2013 03:25 SilverStar wrote:
And where is the "trolling"?
rather, the dev forum inhabitants were trolled by them.
that's a bit more accurate.
trolling in its literal meaning there does actually work, but that's not how I meant it.
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Russian Federation4050 Posts
On October 30 2013 04:32 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 04:06 dfs wrote:On October 30 2013 03:39 TheYango wrote:
And "individual plays" are such a small part of what makes a player good. Err... what? Small? Individual play = skill. You don't need to show WoDota every game, but if you can't show good plays you are not a good player. But the reverse is not necessarily true--being able to show good plays does not automatically make someone a good player. And the "individual plays" referred to focus particularly on mechanics and playing small scale scenarios (the Bear micro from the game referred to by Kraznaya). "Individual plays" =/= individual play. Individual play encompasses much more than playing out scenarios like that, which is my point. I just feel in general people overrated Sylar's ability leaving LGD and overstated how much it "hurt" the team for him to leave. Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 04:29 Kipsate wrote:
Xiaotuji is still a downgrade I feel. LGD has changed their playstyle which allows them to do well. In the PL kotl games they still play it doesn't take much to win from the carry player. I don't disagree, but it clearly didn't cripple the team the way the majority of people expected it to. The core of the team is the Dream core of Xiao8+Yao+DD. So long as they're playing together, it's the same team.
I am quoting that.
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On October 30 2013 04:54 dfs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 04:32 TheYango wrote:On October 30 2013 04:06 dfs wrote:On October 30 2013 03:39 TheYango wrote:
And "individual plays" are such a small part of what makes a player good. Err... what? Small? Individual play = skill. You don't need to show WoDota every game, but if you can't show good plays you are not a good player. But the reverse is not necessarily true--being able to show good plays does not automatically make someone a good player. And the "individual plays" referred to focus particularly on mechanics and playing small scale scenarios (the Bear micro from the game referred to by Kraznaya). "Individual plays" =/= individual play. Individual play encompasses much more than playing out scenarios like that, which is my point. I just feel in general people overrated Sylar's ability leaving LGD and overstated how much it "hurt" the team for him to leave. On October 30 2013 04:29 Kipsate wrote:
Xiaotuji is still a downgrade I feel. LGD has changed their playstyle which allows them to do well. In the PL kotl games they still play it doesn't take much to win from the carry player. I don't disagree, but it clearly didn't cripple the team the way the majority of people expected it to. The core of the team is the Dream core of Xiao8+Yao+DD. So long as they're playing together, it's the same team. I am quoting that.
Nice sig
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On October 30 2013 04:54 dfs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 04:32 TheYango wrote:On October 30 2013 04:06 dfs wrote:On October 30 2013 03:39 TheYango wrote:
And "individual plays" are such a small part of what makes a player good. Err... what? Small? Individual play = skill. You don't need to show WoDota every game, but if you can't show good plays you are not a good player. But the reverse is not necessarily true--being able to show good plays does not automatically make someone a good player. And the "individual plays" referred to focus particularly on mechanics and playing small scale scenarios (the Bear micro from the game referred to by Kraznaya). "Individual plays" =/= individual play. Individual play encompasses much more than playing out scenarios like that, which is my point. I just feel in general people overrated Sylar's ability leaving LGD and overstated how much it "hurt" the team for him to leave. On October 30 2013 04:29 Kipsate wrote:
Xiaotuji is still a downgrade I feel. LGD has changed their playstyle which allows them to do well. In the PL kotl games they still play it doesn't take much to win from the carry player. I don't disagree, but it clearly didn't cripple the team the way the majority of people expected it to. The core of the team is the Dream core of Xiao8+Yao+DD. So long as they're playing together, it's the same team. I am quoting that.
I believe what he is saying is that the ability to make good plays doesn't make you a good player.
Just because you can hit big pudge hooks doesn't make you Dendi - its all the small things Dendi does that makes Dendi good.
But a bad way to say it XD
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So the more WoDota plays a player makes, the better the player is relative to other pros?
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Mouz just drafted bristleback. I'm excited. :D
Edit: And a solo mid venomancer.
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On October 30 2013 05:07 Kuroeeah wrote:
So the more WoDota plays a player makes, the better the player is relative to other pros?
thats exactly the opposite of his point
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Russian Federation4050 Posts
On October 30 2013 05:06 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 04:54 dfs wrote:On October 30 2013 04:32 TheYango wrote:On October 30 2013 04:06 dfs wrote:On October 30 2013 03:39 TheYango wrote:
And "individual plays" are such a small part of what makes a player good. Err... what? Small? Individual play = skill. You don't need to show WoDota every game, but if you can't show good plays you are not a good player. But the reverse is not necessarily true--being able to show good plays does not automatically make someone a good player. And the "individual plays" referred to focus particularly on mechanics and playing small scale scenarios (the Bear micro from the game referred to by Kraznaya). "Individual plays" =/= individual play. Individual play encompasses much more than playing out scenarios like that, which is my point. I just feel in general people overrated Sylar's ability leaving LGD and overstated how much it "hurt" the team for him to leave. On October 30 2013 04:29 Kipsate wrote:
Xiaotuji is still a downgrade I feel. LGD has changed their playstyle which allows them to do well. In the PL kotl games they still play it doesn't take much to win from the carry player. I don't disagree, but it clearly didn't cripple the team the way the majority of people expected it to. The core of the team is the Dream core of Xiao8+Yao+DD. So long as they're playing together, it's the same team. I am quoting that. I believe what he is saying is that the ability to make good plays doesn't make you a good player. Just because you can hit big pudge hooks doesn't make you Dendi - its all the small things Dendi does that makes Dendi good. But a bad way to say it XD
Yeah, I get his point. I do disagree with a statement that it's a small part of being a good player, though. It all comes from having skill.
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On October 30 2013 05:10 dfs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 05:06 Comeh wrote:On October 30 2013 04:54 dfs wrote:On October 30 2013 04:32 TheYango wrote:On October 30 2013 04:06 dfs wrote:On October 30 2013 03:39 TheYango wrote:
And "individual plays" are such a small part of what makes a player good. Err... what? Small? Individual play = skill. You don't need to show WoDota every game, but if you can't show good plays you are not a good player. But the reverse is not necessarily true--being able to show good plays does not automatically make someone a good player. And the "individual plays" referred to focus particularly on mechanics and playing small scale scenarios (the Bear micro from the game referred to by Kraznaya). "Individual plays" =/= individual play. Individual play encompasses much more than playing out scenarios like that, which is my point. I just feel in general people overrated Sylar's ability leaving LGD and overstated how much it "hurt" the team for him to leave. On October 30 2013 04:29 Kipsate wrote:
Xiaotuji is still a downgrade I feel. LGD has changed their playstyle which allows them to do well. In the PL kotl games they still play it doesn't take much to win from the carry player. I don't disagree, but it clearly didn't cripple the team the way the majority of people expected it to. The core of the team is the Dream core of Xiao8+Yao+DD. So long as they're playing together, it's the same team. I am quoting that. I believe what he is saying is that the ability to make good plays doesn't make you a good player. Just because you can hit big pudge hooks doesn't make you Dendi - its all the small things Dendi does that makes Dendi good. But a bad way to say it XD Yeah, I get his point. I do disagree with a statement that it's a small part of being a good player, though. It all comes from having skill.
The best example of this i can think of is Demon.
He has some amazing plays, but hes no dendi
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On October 30 2013 05:14 tpmraven wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 05:10 dfs wrote:On October 30 2013 05:06 Comeh wrote:On October 30 2013 04:54 dfs wrote:On October 30 2013 04:32 TheYango wrote:On October 30 2013 04:06 dfs wrote:On October 30 2013 03:39 TheYango wrote:
And "individual plays" are such a small part of what makes a player good. Err... what? Small? Individual play = skill. You don't need to show WoDota every game, but if you can't show good plays you are not a good player. But the reverse is not necessarily true--being able to show good plays does not automatically make someone a good player. And the "individual plays" referred to focus particularly on mechanics and playing small scale scenarios (the Bear micro from the game referred to by Kraznaya). "Individual plays" =/= individual play. Individual play encompasses much more than playing out scenarios like that, which is my point. I just feel in general people overrated Sylar's ability leaving LGD and overstated how much it "hurt" the team for him to leave. On October 30 2013 04:29 Kipsate wrote:
Xiaotuji is still a downgrade I feel. LGD has changed their playstyle which allows them to do well. In the PL kotl games they still play it doesn't take much to win from the carry player. I don't disagree, but it clearly didn't cripple the team the way the majority of people expected it to. The core of the team is the Dream core of Xiao8+Yao+DD. So long as they're playing together, it's the same team. I am quoting that. I believe what he is saying is that the ability to make good plays doesn't make you a good player. Just because you can hit big pudge hooks doesn't make you Dendi - its all the small things Dendi does that makes Dendi good. But a bad way to say it XD Yeah, I get his point. I do disagree with a statement that it's a small part of being a good player, though. It all comes from having skill. The best example of this i can think of is Demon. He has some amazing plays, but hes no dendi
I like to think of Alliance - they aren't a team that is filled with a lot of flashy players, for the most part (on average, i'd say less than the normal of wodota moments, rosh antics aside). But they just make perfect decisions, perfect trades, and play perfect dota (in TI3). Crowds don't go crazy over trading towers with a PL, but it won then more games than a Dendi hook.
They also make perfect decisions in fights as well, and are really smart about buybacks. When you watch the fights, they are perfect, but I wouldn't describe them as wodota
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On October 30 2013 05:08 FinestHour wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 05:07 Kuroeeah wrote:
So the more WoDota plays a player makes, the better the player is relative to other pros? thats exactly the opposite of his point
everyone knows the only true measure of skill in dota is the number of highlight reels u have
that's why hexor is a dota god
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I agree with dfs. What personally makes "individual plays" impressive to me is that a player is able to make the best or even turn the odds within an undesirable situation against players a team within a similar skill level. It showcases execution, resourcefulness and thought within a small frame in time.
I'm not really a huge fan of Dendi but one thing I believe he deserves praise for is how consistent he is pulling off clutch plays against very well respectable teams. "Individual plays" isn't everything but within the level of play, where the caliber of teams as well as players can't get any better, i wouldn't define it as a small part of what makes a good player.
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On October 30 2013 05:16 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 05:14 tpmraven wrote:On October 30 2013 05:10 dfs wrote:On October 30 2013 05:06 Comeh wrote:On October 30 2013 04:54 dfs wrote:On October 30 2013 04:32 TheYango wrote:On October 30 2013 04:06 dfs wrote:On October 30 2013 03:39 TheYango wrote:
And "individual plays" are such a small part of what makes a player good. Err... what? Small? Individual play = skill. You don't need to show WoDota every game, but if you can't show good plays you are not a good player. But the reverse is not necessarily true--being able to show good plays does not automatically make someone a good player. And the "individual plays" referred to focus particularly on mechanics and playing small scale scenarios (the Bear micro from the game referred to by Kraznaya). "Individual plays" =/= individual play. Individual play encompasses much more than playing out scenarios like that, which is my point. I just feel in general people overrated Sylar's ability leaving LGD and overstated how much it "hurt" the team for him to leave. On October 30 2013 04:29 Kipsate wrote:
Xiaotuji is still a downgrade I feel. LGD has changed their playstyle which allows them to do well. In the PL kotl games they still play it doesn't take much to win from the carry player. I don't disagree, but it clearly didn't cripple the team the way the majority of people expected it to. The core of the team is the Dream core of Xiao8+Yao+DD. So long as they're playing together, it's the same team. I am quoting that. I believe what he is saying is that the ability to make good plays doesn't make you a good player. Just because you can hit big pudge hooks doesn't make you Dendi - its all the small things Dendi does that makes Dendi good. But a bad way to say it XD Yeah, I get his point. I do disagree with a statement that it's a small part of being a good player, though. It all comes from having skill. The best example of this i can think of is Demon. He has some amazing plays, but hes no dendi I like to think of Alliance - they aren't a team that is filled with a lot of flashy players, for the most part (on average, i'd say less than the normal of wodota moments, rosh antics aside). But they just make perfect decisions, perfect trades, and play perfect dota (in TI3). Crowds don't go crazy over trading towers with a PL, but it won then more games than a Dendi hook. They also make perfect decisions in fights as well, and are really smart about buybacks. When you watch the fights, they are perfect, but I wouldn't describe them as wodota
Obviously the team as a whole deserves credit but I wouldn't undermine "individual plays" either. Is S4 as a player going to be defined by the "million dollar coils" he pulled off? Probably not but does that take away the significance of what those plays allowed Alliance to do? No.
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On October 30 2013 05:24 Kuroeeah wrote:
I agree with dfs. What personally makes "individual plays" impressive to me is that a player is able to make the best or even turn the odds within an undesirable situation against players a team within a similar skill level. It showcases execution, resourcefulness and thought within a small frame in time.
I'm not really a huge fan of Dendi but one thing I believe he deserves praise for is how consistent he is pulling off clutch plays against very well respectable teams. "Individual plays" isn't everything but within the level of play, where the caliber of teams as well as players can't get any better, i wouldn't define it as a small part of what makes a good player.
Yeah, if you make the assumption that the caliber of players can't get better, of course making "big plays" is the only thing that sets people apart.
In the actual competitive scene, however, the general mechanics of players differ on a very large margin.
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United States47024 Posts
I just disagree with the idea that mechanics and small-scale execution is the greatest differentiating factor in player skill. General game understanding, evaluating the state of the game, map movement, etc. just feel more impactful to me.
Actually *hitting* hooks is actually the last thing on the list of things that impresses me about Dendi Pudge. The top two are probably effective solo smoke usage that still finds kill opportunities when the enemy plays deathly scared the first night, and good overall development of his own tempo that ensures that even at 30-40 minutes he still has items and levels when most Pudges end up *sacrificing* their development when they gank and end up underfarmed/underleveled in a longer game even when their early ganks were very successful.
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On October 30 2013 05:29 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 05:24 Kuroeeah wrote:
I agree with dfs. What personally makes "individual plays" impressive to me is that a player is able to make the best or even turn the odds within an undesirable situation against players a team within a similar skill level. It showcases execution, resourcefulness and thought within a small frame in time.
I'm not really a huge fan of Dendi but one thing I believe he deserves praise for is how consistent he is pulling off clutch plays against very well respectable teams. "Individual plays" isn't everything but within the level of play, where the caliber of teams as well as players can't get any better, i wouldn't define it as a small part of what makes a good player. Yeah, if you make the assumption that the caliber of players can't get better, of course making "big plays" is the only thing that sets people apart.
Where did you get the impression that I said the only difference in skill between players are "individual plays"?
On October 30 2013 05:29 WolfintheSheep wrote:
In the actual competitive scene, however, the general mechanics of players differ on a very large margin.
I disagree.
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On October 30 2013 05:38 TheYango wrote:
I just disagree with the idea that mechanics and small-scale execution is the greatest differentiating factor in player skill. General game understanding, evaluating the state of the game, map movement, etc. just feel more impactful to me.
Actually *hitting* hooks is actually the last thing on the list of things that impresses me about Dendi Pudge. The top two are probably effective solo smoke usage that still finds kill opportunities when the enemy plays deathly scared the first night, and good overall development of his own tempo that ensures that even at 30-40 minutes he still has items and levels when most Pudges end up *sacrificing* their development when they gank and end up underfarmed/underleveled in a longer game.
Most of Dendi's hooks "skillshots" are pretty standard stuff you can find in pubs any days.
Agreed - he does find a good amount of farm for how much roaming he chooses to do.
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Dendi utilizes the whole "fear what you can't see" thing. Hiding in the fog, when he decided is best to move around the map by smoking and the whole seizing the opportunity thing until he snowballs.
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On October 30 2013 05:38 Kuroeeah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 05:29 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 30 2013 05:24 Kuroeeah wrote:
I agree with dfs. What personally makes "individual plays" impressive to me is that a player is able to make the best or even turn the odds within an undesirable situation against players a team within a similar skill level. It showcases execution, resourcefulness and thought within a small frame in time.
I'm not really a huge fan of Dendi but one thing I believe he deserves praise for is how consistent he is pulling off clutch plays against very well respectable teams. "Individual plays" isn't everything but within the level of play, where the caliber of teams as well as players can't get any better, i wouldn't define it as a small part of what makes a good player. Yeah, if you make the assumption that the caliber of players can't get better, of course making "big plays" is the only thing that sets people apart. Where did you get the impression that I said the only difference in skill between players are "individual plays"? Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 05:29 WolfintheSheep wrote:
In the actual competitive scene, however, the general mechanics of players differ on a very large margin. I disagree.
You said "Individual Plays" isn't a small part...when the caliber of teams and players can't get any better. If you need that premise, where the teams and players can't improve, then of course highlight reel plays are a big part. But that's a rather ridiculous premise to start with.
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EPT
