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On October 06 2013 08:58 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 08:30 icystorage wrote:
ugh, spec has like 46-50 dmg at level 1 >.< i always buy qb if i random him. Spec's damage is actually so low that a QB actually muddles lasthitting under tower. At ~68 damage tower last-hits are 50-50 between being able to last-hit the melee creep exactly after 5 tower shots, and needing to hit it once before then. This is the damage number where tower last-hits are most muddled and where a QB is most helpful. If your damage is a lot lower than that, then you can usually safely hit the creep once, and still be able to get the tower last-hit. If your damage is a lot higher, then you can just last-hit the creep after 5 tower shots. A QB adds just enough damage to make Spectre's damage go to ~66 at level 1. So amusingly buying a QB at level 1 arguably makes last-hitting under tower harder for Spectre rather than easier.
Good to know this. I only know about range creep hitting once before tower hits it for 2 hits. What about siege creep?
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Russian Federation4050 Posts
On October 06 2013 08:58 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 08:30 icystorage wrote:
ugh, spec has like 46-50 dmg at level 1 >.< i always buy qb if i random him. Spec's damage is actually so low that a QB actually muddles lasthitting under tower. At ~68 damage tower last-hits are 50-50 between being able to last-hit the melee creep exactly after 5 tower shots, and needing to hit it once before then. This is the damage number where tower last-hits are most muddled and where a QB is most helpful. If your damage is a lot lower than that, then you can usually safely hit the creep once, and still be able to get the tower last-hit. If your damage is a lot higher, then you can just last-hit the creep after 5 tower shots. If you're close to 68 damage, then you're in the range where your random damage or the tower's random damage could fuck things up a lot of the time. A QB adds just enough damage to make Spectre's damage go to ~66 at level 1. So amusingly buying a QB at level 1 arguably makes last-hitting under tower harder for Spectre rather than easier.
Drop the QB when you're lasthitting under the tower. Problem solved.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 06 2013 09:01 dfs wrote:
Drop the QB when you're lasthitting under the tower. Problem solved.
You missed my edit. 
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On October 06 2013 09:01 trinxified wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 08:58 TheYango wrote:On October 06 2013 08:30 icystorage wrote:
ugh, spec has like 46-50 dmg at level 1 >.< i always buy qb if i random him. Spec's damage is actually so low that a QB actually muddles lasthitting under tower. At ~68 damage tower last-hits are 50-50 between being able to last-hit the melee creep exactly after 5 tower shots, and needing to hit it once before then. This is the damage number where tower last-hits are most muddled and where a QB is most helpful. If your damage is a lot lower than that, then you can usually safely hit the creep once, and still be able to get the tower last-hit. If your damage is a lot higher, then you can just last-hit the creep after 5 tower shots. A QB adds just enough damage to make Spectre's damage go to ~66 at level 1. So amusingly buying a QB at level 1 arguably makes last-hitting under tower harder for Spectre rather than easier. Good to know this. I only know about range creep hitting once before tower hits it for 2 hits. What about siege creep?
Isnt for low damage 3 tower hit + 2 hero hit = dead cata
High damage 3 tower hit + 1 hero hit = dead cata
`That is how i remember it when i play
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On October 06 2013 09:07 Darkren wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 09:01 trinxified wrote:On October 06 2013 08:58 TheYango wrote:On October 06 2013 08:30 icystorage wrote:
ugh, spec has like 46-50 dmg at level 1 >.< i always buy qb if i random him. Spec's damage is actually so low that a QB actually muddles lasthitting under tower. At ~68 damage tower last-hits are 50-50 between being able to last-hit the melee creep exactly after 5 tower shots, and needing to hit it once before then. This is the damage number where tower last-hits are most muddled and where a QB is most helpful. If your damage is a lot lower than that, then you can usually safely hit the creep once, and still be able to get the tower last-hit. If your damage is a lot higher, then you can just last-hit the creep after 5 tower shots. A QB adds just enough damage to make Spectre's damage go to ~66 at level 1. So amusingly buying a QB at level 1 arguably makes last-hitting under tower harder for Spectre rather than easier. Good to know this. I only know about range creep hitting once before tower hits it for 2 hits. What about siege creep? Isnt for low damage 3 tower hit + 2 hero hit = dead cata High damage 3 tower hit + 1 hero hit = dead cata `That is how i remember it when i play
What's low and high?
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On October 06 2013 09:07 trinxified wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 09:07 Darkren wrote:On October 06 2013 09:01 trinxified wrote:On October 06 2013 08:58 TheYango wrote:On October 06 2013 08:30 icystorage wrote:
ugh, spec has like 46-50 dmg at level 1 >.< i always buy qb if i random him. Spec's damage is actually so low that a QB actually muddles lasthitting under tower. At ~68 damage tower last-hits are 50-50 between being able to last-hit the melee creep exactly after 5 tower shots, and needing to hit it once before then. This is the damage number where tower last-hits are most muddled and where a QB is most helpful. If your damage is a lot lower than that, then you can usually safely hit the creep once, and still be able to get the tower last-hit. If your damage is a lot higher, then you can just last-hit the creep after 5 tower shots. A QB adds just enough damage to make Spectre's damage go to ~66 at level 1. So amusingly buying a QB at level 1 arguably makes last-hitting under tower harder for Spectre rather than easier. Good to know this. I only know about range creep hitting once before tower hits it for 2 hits. What about siege creep? Isnt for low damage 3 tower hit + 2 hero hit = dead cata High damage 3 tower hit + 1 hero hit = dead cata `That is how i remember it when i play What's low and high?
High start stat opr high start damage = high damage. i think around 70
hero + qb = high damage
low start stat or low start damge = low damage from 50 to 60
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United States47024 Posts
Siege creeps have 550 HP, towers do 150-180 damage per hit to siege creeps. The siege creep survives 3 tower hits between 10 and 100 HP, so you need 100+ damage to guarantee the siege creep last-hit, and everything else below that is down to luck a bit, since the damage range is so wide. The rules of thumb you mentioned are ok because after ~70 damage you will get that last-hit reasonably often, just don't be surprised if you're unlucky some of the time.
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Did IF change the default values of hero-type damage towards fortified-type armor?
It has been so long I honestly don't remember.
I know I used this frozen throne site for any of those mechanics questions, but I know IF messed with some of those numbers, at least chaos-type damage(jungle creeps like centaor khan did/do chaos-type damage and those do only 40-50% against tower armor. Opposed to real chaos damage which is 100% against everything.)
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Siege creep under tower is definitely up to luck. I'll just start whacking the damn thing in lane so I can hopefully kill it before a tower gets involved.
I just kind of wish there was a faster way of farming melee creeps under tower than 5 hits then attack (or 1 hit prep). Maybe I could do something with hitting a creep while a tower works on another. 3 high damage hits and one tower hit SHOULD bring it to lasthit range.
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On October 06 2013 09:53 Acritter wrote:
Siege creep under tower is definitely up to luck. I'll just start whacking the damn thing in lane so I can hopefully kill it before a tower gets involved.
I just kind of wish there was a faster way of farming melee creeps under tower than 5 hits then attack (or 1 hit prep). Maybe I could do something with hitting a creep while a tower works on another. 3 high damage hits and one tower hit SHOULD bring it to lasthit range.
It takes practice I guess. I just recently got the hang of prepping creeps up for my nuke and I still miss A LOT.
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On October 06 2013 09:56 EnumaAvalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 09:53 Acritter wrote:
Siege creep under tower is definitely up to luck. I'll just start whacking the damn thing in lane so I can hopefully kill it before a tower gets involved.
I just kind of wish there was a faster way of farming melee creeps under tower than 5 hits then attack (or 1 hit prep). Maybe I could do something with hitting a creep while a tower works on another. 3 high damage hits and one tower hit SHOULD bring it to lasthit range. It takes practice I guess. I just recently got the hang of prepping creeps up for my nuke and I still miss A LOT.
No, I can do it fairly reliably, I just want to not be tanking so much creep damage.
This stream from Firebolt145 is hilarious. Highly recommend.
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How much damage does a t1 tower do to melee creeps? min/max ?
I know sometimes I need 1hit extra, and sometimes 2 hits, so I've been checking creep hp after the 3rd hit to see where it falls, but I've kinda been eyeballing it (240ish, you're probably good. 260ish, better hit it once) Depends on hero of course
Wonder if I can put some actual numbers behind this
edit: nvm found this thread
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375120
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On October 06 2013 10:02 JeeJee wrote:How much damage does a t1 tower do to melee creeps? min/max ? I know sometimes I need 1hit extra, and sometimes 2 hits, so I've been checking creep hp after the 3rd hit to see where it falls, but I've kinda been eyeballing it (240ish, you're probably good. 260ish, better hit it once) Depends on hero of course Wonder if I can put some actual numbers behind this edit: nvm found this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375120
100-120 damage, which means that barring miracle, they should never kill the creep in 5 hits (because the melee creep has 2 armor). Eyeballing is almost always best, and as a personal note, I recommend getting pointless hits off on creeps about once every level or new damage item so you can keep your analysis of your damage potential up to date. Maybe some people are fully able to keep their calculations up and ready on the fly, but I much prefer to keep reliable knowledge of what I can do in terms of damage and attack speed throughout the game. Of course, this does mean you need to work harder to maintain equilibrium, but there are always sacrifices.
If someone with more experience wants to contradict me, please do.
Edit: wiki also works.
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TY just dropped the knowledge bomb on me
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Hey guys I was a PL with CM AND KOTL on my team(and Zeus and Centaur). best game ever right?
anyhow I farmed much and got diffusal and the other team started five manning us. They were Enigma, WD, Storm Spirit, Dark Seer, and one other.
Basically they started forcing fights before I got manta(And heart) and my team started blaming me for us losing, saying I couldn't carry. Given this was an all random game, I can't really complain about the picks. Doesn't the other team have too much teamfight for us to win? I and my team was blown up instantly everytime a battle started. Was it really my fault?
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On this topic, what's the best practice for lasthitting when two waves meet under a tower?
I find this is when I miss 90% of my lasthits, because there are always points where a tower shot that will kill the creep is incoming, but my damage isn't high enough to take it myself. It seems impossible to prep because they take damage from my wave as well, which makes everything too irregular.
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On October 06 2013 10:38 Bippzy wrote:
Hey guys I was a PL with CM AND KOTL on my team(and Zeus and Centaur). best game ever right?
anyhow I farmed much and got diffusal and the other team started five manning us. They were Enigma, WD, Storm Spirit, Dark Seer, and one other.
Basically they started forcing fights before I got manta(And heart) and my team started blaming me for us losing, saying I couldn't carry. Given this was an all random game, I can't really complain about the picks. Doesn't the other team have too much teamfight for us to win? I and my team was blown up instantly everytime a battle started. Was it really my fault?
Kotl + CM should be able to stop any push onto high ground until the enemy gets pipe. If you're engaging off the high ground, that's your team's fault.
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On October 06 2013 10:38 Bippzy wrote:
Hey guys I was a PL with CM AND KOTL on my team(and Zeus and Centaur). best game ever right?
anyhow I farmed much and got diffusal and the other team started five manning us. They were Enigma, WD, Storm Spirit, Dark Seer, and one other.
Basically they started forcing fights before I got manta(And heart) and my team started blaming me for us losing, saying I couldn't carry. Given this was an all random game, I can't really complain about the picks. Doesn't the other team have too much teamfight for us to win? I and my team was blown up instantly everytime a battle started. Was it really my fault?
Why were you in fights? You have much better lategame and splitpush. If they desperately want fights, then take them at your T3s. All other times, farm. Keep good vision over the map, farm in safe areas, and if someone gets initiated on, use Centaur ult to disengage. If you think they might be smoked, Zeus ult will fix things. If you're somehow caught into a fight, run away for as long as you can. Stay split up and avoid the areas where they use their ults (outside of stunning out of channel). Your role in the fights as PL should be to stay to the sides and just focus on not dying while your illusions burn mana. Most of all, MOST of all, NEVER go into chokepoints when there's even the possibility that their entire team is there.
Your team has lots of disengagement between Stampede, Blinding Light, and Freezing Field. If you get into a bad situation, you can get out, unless your heroes are positioned horribly and, like you said, just get blown up. Watch the replay, and rather than thinking "look how fast we got blown up," think "where should we have been in order to have this not happen?" If you need counterpush, remember: KotL does that by himself.
On October 06 2013 10:41 Belisarius wrote:
On this topic, what's the best practice for lasthitting when two waves meet under a tower?
I find this is when I miss 90% of my lasthits, because there are always points where a tower shot that will kill the creep is incoming, but my damage isn't high enough to take it myself. It seems impossible to prep because they take damage from my wave as well, which makes everything too irregular.
Just do your best to eyeball it. And try to keep that from happening.
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On October 06 2013 10:38 Bippzy wrote:
Hey guys I was a PL with CM AND KOTL on my team(and Zeus and Centaur). best game ever right?
anyhow I farmed much and got diffusal and the other team started five manning us. They were Enigma, WD, Storm Spirit, Dark Seer, and one other.
Basically they started forcing fights before I got manta(And heart) and my team started blaming me for us losing, saying I couldn't carry. Given this was an all random game, I can't really complain about the picks. Doesn't the other team have too much teamfight for us to win? I and my team was blown up instantly everytime a battle started. Was it really my fault?
Theorycrafting is fine and dandy, but my first concern is that in all random you are never sure someone can play his own hero. People always think they can(and blame the weaknesses of their play on the hero "Leshrac sucks" etc.).
The point is that your team has 3 really squishy heroes and they have storm and 2 stunners for followups/safety. Their combination doesn't require much coordination since they can just go 5man and do ok, while your team needs to coordinate better and walk together just for safety reason(besides centaur nobody should be able to survive any engagement alone).
Many pub players lack the discipline or the will to play ratdota/teamfight avoiding. There is probably one of those in the 4 other people of your team in any game.
In short: you win some, you lose some, people like to blame someone else.
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EPT
