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On August 31 2013 23:44 Excludos wrote:http://www.tv6.se/blog/naniwa/skill-sc2-och-moba-spelSorry if I get something wrong. I'm actually Norwegian and not Swedish which this article is. While the languages are very similar, some words might be different. Also my English is terrible. Sry  Translation:
Thanks for the translation :-)
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
What does a game being difficult even mean? This would need to be clarified before you can judge if a game is easier or not.
Is it that it takes a long time to master? SC2 has had 15 year old champions.
Is it how much you need to train? All games have people known for not training and staying at the top.
Is it how much effort needs to be excreted during the game? And in that regard can you judge an individual to a team needing to work together? no.
Is it how much originality and creativity is requried to stay at the top?
It's not really possible to come up with a meaningful definition of 'difficult' in a multiplayer game.
I think Loda makes the best point in that twitter conversation. That Dota would be harder for "you" (Naniwa). As would SC2 be harder for many Dota players. Which is why they are in their respective game.
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You guys are confusing concepts that are on 2 different levels. RTS like BW/SC2 focuses on your own abilities while ARTS like LoL/DotA focuses on your team. It's like comparing Quake vs CS players; while there's an overlap of certain skills, the application of those skills are on 2 different levels of individual versus team.
Now just because some aspect of one game is more "difficult" (seriously I have yet to see someone define what "difficult" means) to someone doesn't mean that game is "harder" (whatever the fuck that this means too) for someone different.
As for the skill cap arguments, we don't know what the skill cap is in either game, hell we don't even know how to measure skill in each game let alone trying to compare between 2 different games.
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On September 01 2013 00:06 Flameberger wrote:
What is the significance of a game being harder than another? Pro players do not play against the game, they play against other pro players. The difficulty of winning either starcraft or dota is how hard your opponent is, not how hard your game is.
There's two kinds of difficulty, the innate difficulty of a game doesn't mean much, as long as it is hard enough that the better player/team can make use of his skill, as you said.
The issue is when you say a game is so much easier than the other one that someone from the harder game can easily switch and be sucessful. Like if a SC2/Dota/Whatever pro switched to a small game with little to no competition. That kind of difficulty exists, but the comparison is bullshit for established games such as Dota or SC. Any game you switch to will require a lot dedication and hard work to master, and sucess at one of them will not guarantee sucess in the other one. It's like comparing the difficulty in Chess vs Go or Football vs Rugby.
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United States47024 Posts
The problem with these discussions is that everyone has their own impression of what skill is. And in particular, most peoples' vision of what "skill" is is overwhelmingly slanted toward mechanical skill because when you have only superficial knowledge of a game, this is the skill that is most apparent to you.
Plus very few people have enough familiarity with both games at a high enough level to make an accurate assessment of what skills are required to to be good at them.
Naniwa just seems bitter at how much money there is in DotA 2 at the moment.
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Wow nearly 3k people already watching SL7 ingame.
Pretty neat considering the teams that are playing.
Seems like more than what i'd have expected prior to TI3.
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It's easy to look at a Dota pro game and say "I could have pressed those buttons in that sequence". But, somehow, very few people actually do.
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On September 01 2013 00:27 SKC wrote:
It's easy to look at a Dota pro game and say "I could have pressed those buttons in that sequence". But, somehow, very few people actually do.
I don't think physically pushing the buttons is some kind of advanced skill. just like absolutely nothing in starcraft 2 is out of reach, its doing it effortlessly at the exact right moment without thought or preparation. Just like its not difficult to catch a puck in hockey except during a game when you do not know when it is coming or how fast.
application of skill is the difficulty in every game, its not the skill itself.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On September 01 2013 00:30 Dattish wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2013 00:21 TheYango wrote:
Naniwa just seems bitter at how much money there is in DotA 2 at the moment. He's bitter that a custom map killed his favourite game.
Dota (and other customs) was the only thing keeping WC3 alive.
And I say that as someone who was a bigger WC3 than Dota fan when it comes to competitive play.
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On September 01 2013 00:30 Dattish wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2013 00:21 TheYango wrote:
Naniwa just seems bitter at how much money there is in DotA 2 at the moment. He's bitter that a custom map killed his favourite game.
He should blame himself then because the playerbase moving on to play sc2 was a lot more damaging than any custom map.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On September 01 2013 00:38 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2013 00:30 Dattish wrote:On September 01 2013 00:21 TheYango wrote:
Naniwa just seems bitter at how much money there is in DotA 2 at the moment. He's bitter that a custom map killed his favourite game. He should blame himself then because the playerbase moving on to play sc2 was a lot more damaging than any custom map. Well Naniwa was clearly not good enough to make it in WC3 as it was the harder game. You know how much you need to click in WC3? Like, lots of clicking, both keyboard and mouse!
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Guys, guys. He's talking about MOBAs. So he's clearly refering to League and not to Dota. And I think we all agree on League being easy as pie.
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On September 01 2013 00:27 Unleashing wrote:
Wow nearly 3k people already watching SL7 ingame.
Pretty neat considering the teams that are playing.
Seems like more than what i'd have expected prior to TI3.
V1lat laughing his way to the bank.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Lot of CIS probably want to see their favourite players play, moreover the fact that they split the ticket and the Rubick Set if people want to makes it so a lot more people will want to buy it I think.
The players playing are not completly unknown to CIS people, Sedoy, Nexus and Stallianar are quite (in)famous and the new Poseidon has some people from VP.
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Speaking of the kit, estimates on how many games you have to watch in order to change style.
And does replays count?
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On September 01 2013 00:38 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2013 00:30 Dattish wrote:On September 01 2013 00:21 TheYango wrote:
Naniwa just seems bitter at how much money there is in DotA 2 at the moment. He's bitter that a custom map killed his favourite game. He should blame himself then because the playerbase moving on to play sc2 was a lot more damaging than any custom map.
its pretty much all on blizzard - sc2 is a very compromised game in terms of competitive watch-ability and in well, nearly every single other area. or something
nani is always salty about something
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On September 01 2013 01:07 WindWolf wrote:
Speaking of the kit, estimates on how many games you have to watch in order to change style.
And does replays count?
It's usually 15 30 45 60 for sets to unlock
Couriers are gradually up to 100.
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On September 01 2013 01:09 SilverStar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2013 01:07 WindWolf wrote:
Speaking of the kit, estimates on how many games you have to watch in order to change style.
And does replays count? It's usually 15 30 45 60 for sets to unlock Couriers are gradually up to 100.
Thanks. The only style-item I have (before the SL7 kit) is a TF2 item, and both styles was unlocked from start
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
The only thing I agree with is that SC2 requires more mechanics than Dota. Aside from that they focus on different things.
This is yet another topic that has been discussed to death without resolution and should be stopped before we end up with another five pages of this.
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EPT
