On August 28 2013 06:56 Torte de Lini wrote: Would you guys consider this a quality of DotA and even now in Dota 2 or something to omit?
The way unintended consequences of various map features are used in gameplay is a HUGE feature of dota. As somebody else said, it is just like broodwar. "Magic Boxes" and "Drone Drills" and other such interesting mechanics were obviously not "intentional" but rather side-effects of other things that turn out to be fascinating and abuseable game mechanics that add a LOT to the gameplay.
E: and stop lurkers, and walling techniques, etc. The list in BW is long and thats a huge part of why it was so cool: depth to explore. Dota has just as many quirks that make it amazing.
I've written it as a beautiful foundation that lead the new dimensions and techniques to innovate gameplay and thus, strategy. I also used the Chen/Pudge Dendi clip to show that Dota 2 maintained this consistency of working to streamline bugs that was both balanced and consistent.
Something like that
That's probably an awkward clip to choose for that specificly since part of those plays consists of an unintentional bug and, according to Chinese casters, Na'Vi wasn't allowed to use it in the finals because of that.
(The hook projectile doesn't match the visuals)
...a better example would be KotLs illuminate range that was bugged to be too long in Dota 2. It however suddenly made people pick the hero and Icefrog later changed it officially to the "bugged" range in 6.75.
The article is geared towards people unfamiliar with the game (as per the request of the website) so I don't think the logistics of the tournament matter to them.
I don't know how serious he is, but its labeled as intended I guess. Matching the idea of innovation creating awesome gameplays and dimensions (more or less).
On August 28 2013 07:09 TheYango wrote: I mean there are some bugs that just reach a level of absurdity where you simply can't keep them in the game (e.g. Weaver / Nyx).
On August 28 2013 06:56 Torte de Lini wrote: Would you guys consider this a quality of DotA and even now in Dota 2 or something to omit?
The way unintended consequences of various map features are used in gameplay is a HUGE feature of dota. As somebody else said, it is just like broodwar. "Magic Boxes" and "Drone Drills" and other such interesting mechanics were obviously not "intentional" but rather side-effects of other things that turn out to be fascinating and abuseable game mechanics that add a LOT to the gameplay.
E: and stop lurkers, and walling techniques, etc. The list in BW is long and thats a huge part of why it was so cool: depth to explore. Dota has just as many quirks that make it amazing.
I've written it as a beautiful foundation that lead the new dimensions and techniques to innovate gameplay and thus, strategy. I also used the Chen/Pudge Dendi clip to show that Dota 2 maintained this consistency of working to streamline bugs that was both balanced and consistent.
Something like that
That's probably an awkward clip to choose for that specificly since part of those plays consists of an unintentional bug and, according to Chinese casters, Na'Vi wasn't allowed to use it in the finals because of that.
(The hook projectile doesn't match the visuals)
...a better example would be KotLs illuminate range that was bugged to be too long in Dota 2. It however suddenly made people pick the hero and Icefrog later changed it officially to the "bugged" range in 6.75.
The article is geared towards people unfamiliar with the game (as per the request of the website) so I don't think the logistics of the tournament matter to them.
I don't know how serious he is, but its labeled as intended I guess. Matching the idea of innovation creating awesome gameplays and dimensions (more or less).
this is hard
And I, along with a lot of pros, disagree with icefrog heavily that it should be in the game.
Unfortunately, IF and I don't need to agree on things, but I think having it in the game (in tournament mode, at least), removes some legitimacy in games where it is used.
I mean, shit, does anyone remember root vs fnatic?
On August 28 2013 07:09 TheYango wrote: I mean there are some bugs that just reach a level of absurdity where you simply can't keep them in the game (e.g. OD aura triggering off of Basi toggle).
He clearly should have left the one where CK could pull towers ingame.
On August 28 2013 06:56 Torte de Lini wrote: Would you guys consider this a quality of DotA and even now in Dota 2 or something to omit?
The way unintended consequences of various map features are used in gameplay is a HUGE feature of dota. As somebody else said, it is just like broodwar. "Magic Boxes" and "Drone Drills" and other such interesting mechanics were obviously not "intentional" but rather side-effects of other things that turn out to be fascinating and abuseable game mechanics that add a LOT to the gameplay.
E: and stop lurkers, and walling techniques, etc. The list in BW is long and thats a huge part of why it was so cool: depth to explore. Dota has just as many quirks that make it amazing.
I've written it as a beautiful foundation that lead the new dimensions and techniques to innovate gameplay and thus, strategy. I also used the Chen/Pudge Dendi clip to show that Dota 2 maintained this consistency of working to streamline bugs that was both balanced and consistent.
Something like that
That's probably an awkward clip to choose for that specificly since part of those plays consists of an unintentional bug and, according to Chinese casters, Na'Vi wasn't allowed to use it in the finals because of that.
(The hook projectile doesn't match the visuals)
...a better example would be KotLs illuminate range that was bugged to be too long in Dota 2. It however suddenly made people pick the hero and Icefrog later changed it officially to the "bugged" range in 6.75.
The article is geared towards people unfamiliar with the game (as per the request of the website) so I don't think the logistics of the tournament matter to them.
I don't know how serious he is, but its labeled as intended I guess. Matching the idea of innovation creating awesome gameplays and dimensions (more or less).
this is hard
It was intended. It then generated a shitstorm when used in a high profile match, something that can change the mind of a developer. There's also a new, more gamebreaking bug related to that one and the easiest way to fix it may as well be to just remove it.
I wouldn't bet my money on fountain hooking staying in Dota 2 as it is forever, even if it's not something that IceFrog thinks really needs to go.
On August 28 2013 06:56 Torte de Lini wrote: Would you guys consider this a quality of DotA and even now in Dota 2 or something to omit?
The way unintended consequences of various map features are used in gameplay is a HUGE feature of dota. As somebody else said, it is just like broodwar. "Magic Boxes" and "Drone Drills" and other such interesting mechanics were obviously not "intentional" but rather side-effects of other things that turn out to be fascinating and abuseable game mechanics that add a LOT to the gameplay.
E: and stop lurkers, and walling techniques, etc. The list in BW is long and thats a huge part of why it was so cool: depth to explore. Dota has just as many quirks that make it amazing.
I've written it as a beautiful foundation that lead the new dimensions and techniques to innovate gameplay and thus, strategy. I also used the Chen/Pudge Dendi clip to show that Dota 2 maintained this consistency of working to streamline bugs that was both balanced and consistent.
Something like that
That's probably an awkward clip to choose for that specificly since part of those plays consists of an unintentional bug and, according to Chinese casters, Na'Vi wasn't allowed to use it in the finals because of that.
(The hook projectile doesn't match the visuals)
...a better example would be KotLs illuminate range that was bugged to be too long in Dota 2. It however suddenly made people pick the hero and Icefrog later changed it officially to the "bugged" range in 6.75.
The article is geared towards people unfamiliar with the game (as per the request of the website) so I don't think the logistics of the tournament matter to them.
I don't know how serious he is, but its labeled as intended I guess. Matching the idea of innovation creating awesome gameplays and dimensions (more or less).
this is hard
No, it's not.
Fountain hooking with Chen itself is an intended change, so far it's correct.
However the "bug" people are talking about in regards to that game is that the hook projectile doesn't match the visuals. During a fountain hook there are two projectiles: One, invisible, from the direction you were originally hooking from. The second one, visible, comes from the place you were sent to (fountain).
In practice this means that unless those directions are the same (aka Pudges original hooking position is towards the foutain as well) the projectile you actually see is a different one from the one you need to dodge.
That's why the bug wasn't listed in the gameplay but in the visual bug forum. Trying to find the specific thread atm.
On August 28 2013 06:56 Torte de Lini wrote: Would you guys consider this a quality of DotA and even now in Dota 2 or something to omit?
The way unintended consequences of various map features are used in gameplay is a HUGE feature of dota. As somebody else said, it is just like broodwar. "Magic Boxes" and "Drone Drills" and other such interesting mechanics were obviously not "intentional" but rather side-effects of other things that turn out to be fascinating and abuseable game mechanics that add a LOT to the gameplay.
E: and stop lurkers, and walling techniques, etc. The list in BW is long and thats a huge part of why it was so cool: depth to explore. Dota has just as many quirks that make it amazing.
I've written it as a beautiful foundation that lead the new dimensions and techniques to innovate gameplay and thus, strategy. I also used the Chen/Pudge Dendi clip to show that Dota 2 maintained this consistency of working to streamline bugs that was both balanced and consistent.
Something like that
That's probably an awkward clip to choose for that specificly since part of those plays consists of an unintentional bug and, according to Chinese casters, Na'Vi wasn't allowed to use it in the finals because of that.
(The hook projectile doesn't match the visuals)
...a better example would be KotLs illuminate range that was bugged to be too long in Dota 2. It however suddenly made people pick the hero and Icefrog later changed it officially to the "bugged" range in 6.75.
The article is geared towards people unfamiliar with the game (as per the request of the website) so I don't think the logistics of the tournament matter to them.
I don't know how serious he is, but its labeled as intended I guess. Matching the idea of innovation creating awesome gameplays and dimensions (more or less).
this is hard
No, it's not.
Fountain hooking with Chen itself is an intended change, so far it's correct.
However the "bug" people are talking about in regards to that game is that the hook projectile doesn't match the visuals. During a fountain hook there are two projectiles: One, invisible, from the direction you were originally hooking from. The second one, visible, comes from the place you were sent to (fountain).
In practice this means that unless those directions are the same (aka Pudges original hooking position is towards the foutain as well) the projectile you actually see is a different one from the one you need to dodge.
That's why the bug wasn't listed in the gameplay but in the visual bug forum. Trying to find the specific thread atm.
Most people didn't even know about the visual bug when they were complaining. It's definatelly not something that would be ignored if the visual bug didn't exist.
On August 28 2013 07:18 Torte de Lini wrote: Yeah, I'm confused now. So the combination is legitimate, but how varied it can be and thus properly performed is not?
There's a bug that makes the visual display of the hook diferent from it's actual location, making it harder if not impossible to dodge. That's a big deal.
Wether the combination should be legitimate would still be a huge discussion, even if the developers said it was "too hilarious too fix". It definatelly doesn't compare to things like muta stacking, which everyone basically agrees makes the game better. Fountain hooking doesn't make Dota better, it's funny, some people think it's too gamebreaking, but overall it hardly matters.
On August 28 2013 07:18 Torte de Lini wrote: Yeah, I'm confused now. So the combination is legitimate, but how varied it can be and thus properly performed is not?
According to dev threads, it was considered legitimate until a recent bug concerning the positioning (or rather, illusion of where it is) of the hook was deteremined off.
So pudge fountain hook = legit.
pudge fountain hook being displaced improperly = not legit.
On August 28 2013 07:18 Torte de Lini wrote: Yeah, I'm confused now. So the combination is legitimate, but how varied it can be and thus properly performed is not?
Fountain hook with Chen = 100% legit and on the intended changes list.
Visuals of the hook projectile not matching with the actual projectile = bug.
e: there we go.
On August 11 2013 03:40 TheYango wrote: What's interesting is that the visual effect actually matches the DotA 1 functionality (the hook is displaced back to fountain along with Pudge when he is sent home), but the actual spell effect does not (actual hook continues to travel where Pudge was before the teleport).
At the very least, it was a bit hasty to label it an intended change and be done with it. There should have at least been some work to rectify the visuals with what actually happens.
On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote: The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too.
Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported.
Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge.
On August 28 2013 07:19 Yoshi- wrote: Also hooks now hooks to pudge current position, unlike dota1 where it hooked to the position where pudge started casting it.
They should just change it back to the latter, would also make force much better
Well as it stands right now, Hook is too different of a spell from DotA 1. The whole thing is a nightmare if you're trying to look at this from a parity perspective:
- Projectile speed, width, length are all different from DotA 1 - The hook projectile is not displaced in relation to movement Pudge makes after the hook is thrown (no curved hooks, force staff hooks, etc.). - What Yoshi- said above
On August 28 2013 07:24 Torte de Lini wrote: Ahh I get it!
But then the example is fine in the article.
The issue is that you are giving an example of a bug that the developers chose to maintain because it made the game better, but it may be removed soon, it will at least be changed, a lot of people hate it and it doesn't really affect the game all that much anyway. Sure, it kinda fits, but it really isn't in the same category as creep stacking and other Dota, BW, CS, etc. bugs that became part of it's core gameplay.
The first reaction you get may not be "that is so cool", it may be "that is so dumb", both by new readers and people that play Dota.
Is there another video that displays what I am aiming at? It's just a more fun demonstration I suppose. It's hard to explain it to non-Dota people as well as giving them an example of a bug that was new, exciting and awesome, that later became accepted. I was going to use the Tiny example, but this is much better.
Here's the video:
They had another one from DreamHack, but the music was brutal, this is, unfortunately, second best.
On August 28 2013 07:30 Torte de Lini wrote: Is there another video that displays what I am aiming at? It's just a more fun demonstration I suppose. It's hard to explain it to non-Dota people as well as giving them an example of a bug that was new, exciting and awesome, that later became accepted. I was going to use the Tiny example, but this is much better.
They had another one from DreamHack, but the music was brutal, this is, unfortunately, second best.
If you look that that video, the Hook appears to come from the fountain, not from Pudge, when the actual physical hook is coming from Pudge. It's the best example of why the play was disallowed for the rest of the tournament.
On August 28 2013 07:33 TheYango wrote: The better example then is KotL's Illuminate range being 400 range too long in DotA 2, then Icefrog making that intended a couple patches later.
It's definatelly not as cool though. You won't find anything really as exciting as a pudge hook imo.
On August 28 2013 07:30 Torte de Lini wrote: Is there another video that displays what I am aiming at? It's just a more fun demonstration I suppose. It's hard to explain it to non-Dota people as well as giving them an example of a bug that was new, exciting and awesome, that later became accepted. I was going to use the Tiny example, but this is much better.
They had another one from DreamHack, but the music was brutal, this is, unfortunately, second best.
If you look that that video, the Hook appears to come from the fountain, not from Pudge, when the actual physical hook is coming from Pudge. It's the best example of why the play was disallowed for the rest of the tournament.
Yeah, it was just explained above. I see exactly what everyone means.
I don't get the KOTL thing. How is it in the same vein beyond just a typo of range?
EPT
