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On August 23 2013 00:29 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 17:14 trinxified wrote:On August 22 2013 15:54 Shaella wrote:On August 22 2013 15:53 Loanshark wrote:On August 22 2013 15:45 Shaella wrote:On August 22 2013 15:43 trinxified wrote:On August 22 2013 15:36 Shaella wrote:On August 22 2013 15:26 trinxified wrote:On August 22 2013 13:41 Shaella wrote:On August 22 2013 13:37 Pseudoku wrote:[quote] It isn't called the hard carry for no reason.  its not that they can't last hit its just they can't FARM Explain please.  there's a difference between knowing how to last hit and get early gold, and knowing how to FARM, its a mental discipline thing. Or you know, being actually crazy like Aui and TC (and me to some extent) are, PVE ALL DAY EVERY DAY PL IS THE BEST HERO CAUSE FARMING :D Do you mean how to farm like where and when to farm? I don't get it lol. I mean.. Literally just the mental discipline to farm Too many Drow Rangers who repeatedly roam around and gank once they hit Level 6 and never farm  eeexactly So many people who play carries just run around trying to kill things instead of farming Well in a lot of pubs, your team will flame you hard for not joining team fights For not joining fights, for not farming, for not backing off, for not engaging, for getting yourself killed, for surviving something that kills a lot of your team. It never ends. Last night: I'm Alchemist. My lane had been a bit of a mess (laning myself and Tiny vs Warlock/Timbersaw/Jungle Furion in the suicide lane...don't ask... >_> ) but I'd managed to get some farm and an 8-10 minute Midas so I went in the jungle after my team started roaming, building up to my big items. Three of my team grouping up, wandering around, doing nothing except bitching about how me and the other guy weren't with them (I had a TP). Later on when I WAS with them I get knocked down to 20HP and make a lucky escape. "Omg nice escape Alc." I thought he was being serious so I made a comment about having a TP. "Yeah you TPd away and left Drow to die." Oh, it was sarcasm. Clearly losing BOTH of the carries would have been preferable to losing just one. I'll never understand this mindset in some pub players who don't realise that backing off from a fight as a Carry with virtually no health is infinitely preferable than dying to try and save anyone else.
It's because sometimes players DO just never come to teamfights and never seriously engage in them, and they can't tell the difference between that and actually engaging properly. I've had some games...
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On August 23 2013 00:59 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 00:29 -Celestial- wrote:On August 22 2013 17:14 trinxified wrote:On August 22 2013 15:54 Shaella wrote:On August 22 2013 15:53 Loanshark wrote:On August 22 2013 15:45 Shaella wrote:On August 22 2013 15:43 trinxified wrote:On August 22 2013 15:36 Shaella wrote:On August 22 2013 15:26 trinxified wrote:On August 22 2013 13:41 Shaella wrote:
[quote]
its not that they can't last hit
its just
they can't FARM Explain please. there's a difference between knowing how to last hit and get early gold, and knowing how to FARM, its a mental discipline thing. Or you know, being actually crazy like Aui and TC (and me to some extent) are, PVE ALL DAY EVERY DAY PL IS THE BEST HERO CAUSE FARMING :D Do you mean how to farm like where and when to farm? I don't get it lol. I mean.. Literally just the mental discipline to farm Too many Drow Rangers who repeatedly roam around and gank once they hit Level 6 and never farm eeexactly So many people who play carries just run around trying to kill things instead of farming Well in a lot of pubs, your team will flame you hard for not joining team fights For not joining fights, for not farming, for not backing off, for not engaging, for getting yourself killed, for surviving something that kills a lot of your team. It never ends. Last night: I'm Alchemist. My lane had been a bit of a mess (laning myself and Tiny vs Warlock/Timbersaw/Jungle Furion in the suicide lane...don't ask... >_> ) but I'd managed to get some farm and an 8-10 minute Midas so I went in the jungle after my team started roaming, building up to my big items. Three of my team grouping up, wandering around, doing nothing except bitching about how me and the other guy weren't with them (I had a TP). Later on when I WAS with them I get knocked down to 20HP and make a lucky escape. "Omg nice escape Alc." I thought he was being serious so I made a comment about having a TP. "Yeah you TPd away and left Drow to die." Oh, it was sarcasm. Clearly losing BOTH of the carries would have been preferable to losing just one. I'll never understand this mindset in some pub players who don't realise that backing off from a fight as a Carry with virtually no health is infinitely preferable than dying to try and save anyone else. It's because sometimes players DO just never come to teamfights and never seriously engage in them, and they can't tell the difference between that and actually engaging properly. I've had some games...
This is why I use voice chat in Pub Dota and tell people what I am doing. I had a great game as PA where I told them, "Hey, for like the next 10-15 minutes, I am going to farm my heart out. If you can cover for me, I will be able to fight right after that." Just that little bit of information goes a long way if the players are even slightly reasonable people.
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To be honest I tend to find even if you DO explain what you're doing in about 60% of cases they don't give a damn its "omg come push!" and allchat "report X, not fighting".
Bonus points when its a carry like Spectre, Dusa or Void who need that farm badly.
That being said you get some good games. I had one game where my team naturally fell into an excellent 4-protect-1 strategy centred around my Faceless Void. They set up kills for me to have. Pushed other lanes out to distract them from my farming. Saved me from ganks. I went supercarry Midas plus Battlefury, got ALL of the items and then just destroyed. All thanks to having excellent support from my team. Loved those guys.
But the majority of the time you get them bitching at you for "OMG STOP FARMING" at ten minutes into the game when you're playing Medusa. Eh...pubs...
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On August 23 2013 01:10 -Celestial- wrote:
To be honest I tend to find even if you DO explain what you're doing in about 60% of cases they don't give a damn its "omg come push!" and allchat "report X, not fighting".
Bonus points when its a carry like Spectre, Dusa or Void who need that farm badly.
That being said you get some good games. I had one game where my team naturally fell into an excellent 4-protect-1 strategy centred around my Faceless Void. They set up kills for me to have. Pushed other lanes out to distract them from my farming. Saved me from ganks. I went supercarry Midas plus Battlefury, got ALL of the items and then just destroyed. All thanks to having excellent support from my team. Loved those guys.
But the majority of the time you get them bitching at you for "OMG STOP FARMING" at ten minutes into the game when you're playing Medusa. Eh...pubs...
One of the biggest mistakes you can do in pubs as a carry is overfarm and not teamfight.
its a precarious balance.
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I always avoid super carry builds in Pubs, just because I can't count on the protection. With my Specter, I going with the Finch build of getting drums and disfusal for fights at the 20-30 minute mark. I just avoid faceless as a whole, unless they have Spirit Breaker, because Faceless dropping a chrono on a charging Spirit Breaker is the funniest thing ever.
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United States47024 Posts
Part of the issue is that even if it's the *correct* play for people to let a hard farm to your 3rd major item, it's also not FUN for anyone to have to 4v5 and play damage control like this. Particularly since in many cases, when you waited 25 minutes for someone to farm, you still lose the game anyway because that player was not good.
At least if you're losing 5v5 you get more kills and the game is generally more fun than if you're losing 4v5 while the 5th guy is playing PvE because he picked a hero/chose items that can only do that for the first 25 minutes.
Essentially picking/playing like that is being an asshole to your teammates because even if you win, you essentially stole the entire show at their expense. Everyone loves to be the 6-slotted carry that 3-shots everyone but if you have to watch someone else do that 4/5 games while you starve, it gets pretty frustrating.
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France29748 Posts
Well even with AM or Tasteless void, if you manage a 13mn BF-15mn treads you can use it as a solo killing item, with AM blink you can kill any support, with TV you wait some more for a mask of madness and you're ready to kill anyone on the other team. I know that's what I do when I play those heroes in my bronze bracket :O At this point people have 600-900 HP and you do 150 damage. I know that's also when you're supposed farming and I tend to farm one more item with AM, but with void you're ready to kill and snowball hard, you farm less but they die so much that the item difference is at least the same :D
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I pick void only if there's an obvious bkb melee carry on the other team.
Other options?
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Do you want other options when to pick void or other counters to bkb carries
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United States47024 Posts
Void/Spec/PA all have strong early-midgame presence *if they are freefarmed*. It's just that in 2v2 or 3v3 lanes it's very hard to get them farmed because of their poor lane presence, and all 3 heroes are really awkward to play from behind. Also, people deliberately choose items that hamstring their fighting power (e.g. BF on Void or PA, Radi on Spec).
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On August 23 2013 02:52 TheYango wrote:
Void/Spec/PA all have strong early-midgame presence *if they are freefarmed*. It's just that in 2v2 or 3v3 lanes it's very hard to get them farmed because of their poor lane presence, and all 3 heroes are really awkward to play from behind. Also, people deliberately choose items that hamstring their fighting power (e.g. BF on Void or PA, Radi on Spec).
Just don’t buy radiance on Specter. I find that Disfusal with drums provides Specter with enough mid game punch to help with the team fights and still allows her to farm enough to get other big items she needs.
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I pick Void when the other team has a Rubick because 95% of the time they'll try to steal your ult think itll stop you then ult their entire team again for you
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On August 23 2013 02:52 TheYango wrote:
Void/Spec/PA all have strong early-midgame presence *if they are freefarmed*. It's just that in 2v2 or 3v3 lanes it's very hard to get them farmed because of their poor lane presence, and all 3 heroes are really awkward to play from behind. Also, people deliberately choose items that hamstring their fighting power (e.g. BF on Void or PA, Radi on Spec).
Hell, I wouldn't say PA is that bad against those lane situations. She is, IMO, better at those lane situations than Void / Spectre, if only because she can continue to last hit with dagger, and she chases / assists ganks really well.
(we've seen alliance pick up PA against trilane / stronger lane situations with a Chen ((shes strong with wisp as well)) because she can still pick up reliable farm while waiting for chen to hit a critical ganking situation).
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Iunno, void's right clicks early are abusively hard, backtrack helps him survive in lane and as soon as he hits 6 you can usually kill your lane pretty well (admittedly in a tri-v-tri its usually dissolved by the time void would hit 6). Sure he is far from ideal in that situation but he offers a TON more than say a spectre (and more than PA imo though PA probably gets more farm w/ dagger).
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United States47024 Posts
On August 23 2013 02:58 Comeh wrote:
(we've seen alliance pick up PA against trilane / stronger lane situations with a Chen ((shes strong with wisp as well)) because she can still pick up reliable farm while waiting for chen to hit a critical ganking situation).
That's largely because Loda's goal out of a hard laning situation like that does not have to be "get farmed" but merely "be farmed enough that you can ride the midgame tempo of Chen + your solos to recover into being farmed". Loda as a carry tends to be quite good at and willing to make those sacrifices, and Alliance as a team tends to be very good at making good on those sacrifices.
You can't have that same expectation in pubs because you can't expect your solos to be that strong in midgame. Most of the time, you're 50/50 on your solos not losing their lanes in the first place.
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Almost exclusively when Alliance picked PA it was to counter a lifestealer. And they managed to win 5 out of 7 games doing it. But now days they mostly ban lifestealer and havent picked PA since.
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On August 23 2013 01:44 TheYango wrote:
Part of the issue is that even if it's the *correct* play for people to let a hard farm to your 3rd major item, it's also not FUN for anyone to have to 4v5 and play damage control like this. Particularly since in many cases, when you waited 25 minutes for someone to farm, you still lose the game anyway because that player was not good.
At least if you're losing 5v5 you get more kills and the game is generally more fun than if you're losing 4v5 while the 5th guy is playing PvE because he picked a hero/chose items that can only do that for the first 25 minutes.
Essentially picking/playing like that is being an asshole to your teammates because even if you win, you essentially stole the entire show at their expense. Everyone loves to be the 6-slotted carry that 3-shots everyone but if you have to watch someone else do that 4/5 games while you starve, it gets pretty frustrating.
Playing properly is being an "asshole"?
If someone can't have fun being a space creator then that's on them.
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It's more that often times it's pointless creating space since the person you create space for either doesn't use the space correctly or is just unable to use it to win the game for you. So you end up going through all this effort only to get let down. Wears a man down.
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I have fun farming. Fuck the haters
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On August 23 2013 03:47 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 01:44 TheYango wrote:
Part of the issue is that even if it's the *correct* play for people to let a hard farm to your 3rd major item, it's also not FUN for anyone to have to 4v5 and play damage control like this. Particularly since in many cases, when you waited 25 minutes for someone to farm, you still lose the game anyway because that player was not good.
At least if you're losing 5v5 you get more kills and the game is generally more fun than if you're losing 4v5 while the 5th guy is playing PvE because he picked a hero/chose items that can only do that for the first 25 minutes.
Essentially picking/playing like that is being an asshole to your teammates because even if you win, you essentially stole the entire show at their expense. Everyone loves to be the 6-slotted carry that 3-shots everyone but if you have to watch someone else do that 4/5 games while you starve, it gets pretty frustrating. Playing properly is being an "asshole"? If someone can't have fun being a space creator then that's on them.
On the same note, if you can’t play a carry with a better midgame and can only play super late game carries, that is your problem.
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EPT
