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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On August 20 2013 07:28 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 07:26 Acritter wrote:On August 20 2013 07:25 teapoted wrote:On August 20 2013 07:22 Acritter wrote:On August 20 2013 07:09 teapoted wrote:
Well it's an invitational. MLG need an absolute top team (basically Alliance or Na'Vi) for the tournament to have some validity. They can't just do an all American tournament because no one would care. It has Liquid and Dignitas, two teams that did pretty well in TI3. That's enough to make people care. It is not. You might care about it, but American teams will not be bringing in any considerable viewer-ship for the foreseeable future. And an American only Lan would do nothing to raise the status of the winning team. It will just be seen as "okay they won that Lan, but there were only American teams". I don't think Liquid or Dignitas's status in the scene has really changed all that much from before TI. Liquid beat LGD.cn. That's not the mark of a bad team. just ignore teapoted he's heavily anti american dota. and won't change for the foreseeable future. I'm sorry, I don't have time to teach you how to read English.
I never said American teams are bad. I said that a tournament won't be taken all that seriously without a top team. This applies to everything, StarLadder, EMS, whatever. This applies in Europe even more than US. Because the average quality of teams in the US is higher than it is in the EU. But the EU have the tournament winning teams, and without them, your tournament won't be taken all that seriously.
I have always said that American teams are overall very good, but that doesn't say anything about how big of an attraction they are, which they aren't. Or how seriously a tournament would be taken if there are no other teams.
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On August 20 2013 07:32 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 07:28 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 20 2013 07:26 Acritter wrote:On August 20 2013 07:25 teapoted wrote:On August 20 2013 07:22 Acritter wrote:On August 20 2013 07:09 teapoted wrote:
Well it's an invitational. MLG need an absolute top team (basically Alliance or Na'Vi) for the tournament to have some validity. They can't just do an all American tournament because no one would care. It has Liquid and Dignitas, two teams that did pretty well in TI3. That's enough to make people care. It is not. You might care about it, but American teams will not be bringing in any considerable viewer-ship for the foreseeable future. And an American only Lan would do nothing to raise the status of the winning team. It will just be seen as "okay they won that Lan, but there were only American teams". I don't think Liquid or Dignitas's status in the scene has really changed all that much from before TI. Liquid beat LGD.cn. That's not the mark of a bad team. just ignore teapoted he's heavily anti american dota. and won't change for the foreseeable future. I'm sorry, I don't have time to teach you how to read English. I never said American teams are bad. I said that a tournament won't be taken all that seriously without a top team. This applies to everything, StarLadder, EMS, whatever. This applies in Europe even more than US. Because the average quality of teams in the US is higher than it is in the EU. But the EU have the tournament winning teams, and without them, your tournament won't be taken all that seriously.
Yep think of it like in SC2, if they held a no-Korean allowed tournament, nobody would take that seriously either.
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On August 20 2013 07:32 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 07:28 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 20 2013 07:26 Acritter wrote:On August 20 2013 07:25 teapoted wrote:On August 20 2013 07:22 Acritter wrote:On August 20 2013 07:09 teapoted wrote:
Well it's an invitational. MLG need an absolute top team (basically Alliance or Na'Vi) for the tournament to have some validity. They can't just do an all American tournament because no one would care. It has Liquid and Dignitas, two teams that did pretty well in TI3. That's enough to make people care. It is not. You might care about it, but American teams will not be bringing in any considerable viewer-ship for the foreseeable future. And an American only Lan would do nothing to raise the status of the winning team. It will just be seen as "okay they won that Lan, but there were only American teams". I don't think Liquid or Dignitas's status in the scene has really changed all that much from before TI. Liquid beat LGD.cn. That's not the mark of a bad team. just ignore teapoted he's heavily anti american dota. and won't change for the foreseeable future. I'm sorry, I don't have time to teach you how to read English. I never said American teams are bad. I said that a tournament won't be taken all that seriously without a top team. This applies to everything, StarLadder, EMS, whatever. This applies in Europe even more than US. Because the average quality of teams in the US is higher than it is in the EU. But the EU have the tournament winning teams, and without them, your tournament won't be taken all that seriously. I have always said that American teams are overall very good, but that doesn't say anything about how big of an attraction they are, which they aren't.
maybe not to you, but to americans, MLGs core audience, dig/TL would both draw far more viewers than alliance would. only na'vi could draw more.
On August 20 2013 07:34 trinxified wrote:
Yep think of it like in SC2, if they held a no-Korean allowed tournament, nobody would take that seriously either.
yeah and like brood war. no one took the first TSL's seriously at all.
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On August 20 2013 07:32 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 07:28 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 20 2013 07:26 Acritter wrote:On August 20 2013 07:25 teapoted wrote:On August 20 2013 07:22 Acritter wrote:On August 20 2013 07:09 teapoted wrote:
Well it's an invitational. MLG need an absolute top team (basically Alliance or Na'Vi) for the tournament to have some validity. They can't just do an all American tournament because no one would care. It has Liquid and Dignitas, two teams that did pretty well in TI3. That's enough to make people care. It is not. You might care about it, but American teams will not be bringing in any considerable viewer-ship for the foreseeable future. And an American only Lan would do nothing to raise the status of the winning team. It will just be seen as "okay they won that Lan, but there were only American teams". I don't think Liquid or Dignitas's status in the scene has really changed all that much from before TI. Liquid beat LGD.cn. That's not the mark of a bad team. just ignore teapoted he's heavily anti american dota. and won't change for the foreseeable future. I'm sorry, I don't have time to teach you how to read English. I never said American teams are bad. I said that a tournament won't be taken all that seriously without a top team. This applies to everything, StarLadder, EMS, whatever. This applies in Europe even more than US. Because the average quality of teams in the US is higher than it is in the EU. But the EU have the tournament winning teams, and without them, your tournament won't be taken all that seriously. I have always said that American teams are overall very good, but that doesn't say anything about how big of an attraction they are, which they aren't.
Chinese teams lost G1, GLe...NEVERMIND], and TI3.
Future Chinese tournament may not have EU teams.
Future Chinese tournaments will not matter.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On August 20 2013 07:35 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 07:32 teapoted wrote:On August 20 2013 07:28 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 20 2013 07:26 Acritter wrote:On August 20 2013 07:25 teapoted wrote:On August 20 2013 07:22 Acritter wrote:On August 20 2013 07:09 teapoted wrote:
Well it's an invitational. MLG need an absolute top team (basically Alliance or Na'Vi) for the tournament to have some validity. They can't just do an all American tournament because no one would care. It has Liquid and Dignitas, two teams that did pretty well in TI3. That's enough to make people care. It is not. You might care about it, but American teams will not be bringing in any considerable viewer-ship for the foreseeable future. And an American only Lan would do nothing to raise the status of the winning team. It will just be seen as "okay they won that Lan, but there were only American teams". I don't think Liquid or Dignitas's status in the scene has really changed all that much from before TI. Liquid beat LGD.cn. That's not the mark of a bad team. just ignore teapoted he's heavily anti american dota. and won't change for the foreseeable future. I'm sorry, I don't have time to teach you how to read English. I never said American teams are bad. I said that a tournament won't be taken all that seriously without a top team. This applies to everything, StarLadder, EMS, whatever. This applies in Europe even more than US. Because the average quality of teams in the US is higher than it is in the EU. But the EU have the tournament winning teams, and without them, your tournament won't be taken all that seriously. I have always said that American teams are overall very good, but that doesn't say anything about how big of an attraction they are, which they aren't. Chinese teams lost G1, Gleague, and TI3. Future Chinese tournament may not have EU teams. Future Chinese tournaments will not matter. Chinese teams didn't lose g-league.
But yes, the same applies. If the Chinese go down the road they've been going, people will stop taking their tournaments seriously other than national/regional rankings. Which for China a lot of people care, for NA very few do.
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Sing Sing flaming Kipsate ahaha
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On August 20 2013 07:34 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 07:32 teapoted wrote:On August 20 2013 07:28 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 20 2013 07:26 Acritter wrote:On August 20 2013 07:25 teapoted wrote:On August 20 2013 07:22 Acritter wrote:On August 20 2013 07:09 teapoted wrote:
Well it's an invitational. MLG need an absolute top team (basically Alliance or Na'Vi) for the tournament to have some validity. They can't just do an all American tournament because no one would care. It has Liquid and Dignitas, two teams that did pretty well in TI3. That's enough to make people care. It is not. You might care about it, but American teams will not be bringing in any considerable viewer-ship for the foreseeable future. And an American only Lan would do nothing to raise the status of the winning team. It will just be seen as "okay they won that Lan, but there were only American teams". I don't think Liquid or Dignitas's status in the scene has really changed all that much from before TI. Liquid beat LGD.cn. That's not the mark of a bad team. just ignore teapoted he's heavily anti american dota. and won't change for the foreseeable future. I'm sorry, I don't have time to teach you how to read English. I never said American teams are bad. I said that a tournament won't be taken all that seriously without a top team. This applies to everything, StarLadder, EMS, whatever. This applies in Europe even more than US. Because the average quality of teams in the US is higher than it is in the EU. But the EU have the tournament winning teams, and without them, your tournament won't be taken all that seriously. I have always said that American teams are overall very good, but that doesn't say anything about how big of an attraction they are, which they aren't. maybe not to you, but to americans, MLGs core audience, dig/TL would both draw far more viewers than alliance would. only na'vi could draw more. Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 07:34 trinxified wrote:
Yep think of it like in SC2, if they held a no-Korean allowed tournament, nobody would take that seriously either. yeah and like brood war. no one took the first TSL's seriously at all. In no reality does Dig/TL bring more viewers than Alliance after TI3. Even American viewership.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Alliance are the champions of TI3, ofcourse they will draw more viewers.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 20 2013 07:41 teapoted wrote:In no reality does Dig/TL bring more viewers than Alliance after TI3. Even American viewership.
Nobody said it does. But your original statement was:
On August 20 2013 07:09 teapoted wrote:
Well it's an invitational. MLG need an absolute top team (basically Alliance or Na'Vi) for the tournament to have some validity. They can't just do an all American tournament because no one would care.
This whole discussion is awful because everyone is speaking qualitatively so nobody has any sense of how many viewers you think are enough to consider the event a success. So by some arbitrary qualitative measure an invitational with only American teams might be considered a success, but by some completely different arbitrary measure it might not be.
Realistically, you need to talk more in tangibles for anyone to make any headway.
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On August 20 2013 07:43 Kipsate wrote:
Alliance are the champions of TI3, ofcourse they will draw more viewers.
That's obvious. What he said is that noone will care about a LAN that doesn't have Alliance or Navi, which is a much stronger statement.
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On August 20 2013 07:39 Gheizen64 wrote:
Sing Sing flaming Kipsate ahaha
yeah, that game was nothing to be proud of. Poor Kipsate.
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On August 20 2013 07:45 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 07:43 Kipsate wrote:
Alliance are the champions of TI3, ofcourse they will draw more viewers. That's obvious. What he said is that noone will care about a LAN that doesn't have Alliance or Navi, which is a much stronger statement.
Which is also incorrect. People will watch it because its MLG and good teams will show up. Which teams those are will depend on what MLG can offer and how much it costs for them to get over to the event.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 20 2013 07:45 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 07:43 Kipsate wrote:
Alliance are the champions of TI3, ofcourse they will draw more viewers. That's obvious. What he said is that noone will care about a LAN that doesn't have Alliance or Navi, which is a much stronger statement.
I would say that statement is being deliberately hyperbolic (and if it's not then I have nothing to say to teapoted, because the idea that *nobody* will care about a DotA 2 LAN is ridiculous--given how rare big name LANs are for DotA 2 right now, there's a significant viewer pool that will care right now simply because it's a LAN in DotA 2 with teams they've heard of). Realistically he just doesn't think the event will be a success, but nobody has offered a metric of what they think "success" means so everyone is just waving their hands around in the dark.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On August 20 2013 07:45 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 07:43 Kipsate wrote:
Alliance are the champions of TI3, ofcourse they will draw more viewers. That's obvious. What he said is that noone will care about a LAN that doesn't have Alliance or Navi, which is a much stronger statement. I shouldn't have to explain that "no on cares" is an exaggeration. I'm sure someone cared about ADL, last EMS season, Thor Open. I watched and enjoyed them (along with low viewership numbers), but then I quickly forgot and dismissed them.
I'll have to clarify I suppose.
I don't think doing an all American tournament would be a bad tournament. I don't think the American teams are bad (in fact on average they are ranked very highly considering they have few but very good teams). But, when such a tournament is done will that title hold the weight of a Dreamhack title, or even a StarLadder title? Would such a tournament bring in the viewership of those tournaments?
I believe not. To me there's a big distinction of a tournament just having that 1 top team (which luckily, now you have 2 to choose from due to the close nature of the TI final). And if you don't have that, it's a tier below. In validity, and in viewership.
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On August 20 2013 07:51 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 07:45 SKC wrote:On August 20 2013 07:43 Kipsate wrote:
Alliance are the champions of TI3, ofcourse they will draw more viewers. That's obvious. What he said is that noone will care about a LAN that doesn't have Alliance or Navi, which is a much stronger statement. I would say that statement is being deliberately hyperbolic (and if it's not then I have nothing to say to teapoted, because the idea that *nobody* will care about a DotA 2 LAN is ridiculous--given how rare big name LANs are for DotA 2 right now, there's a significant viewer pool that will care right now simply because it's a LAN in DotA 2 with teams they've heard of). Realistically he just doesn't think the event will be a success, but nobody has offered a metric of what they think "success" means so everyone is just waving their hands around in the dark.
And lets please not go the SC2 route where we demand the best of the best be at every single LAN event and complain every time it doesn't happen. There is nothing worse than when a big event is announced for SC2 and the main theme is "not enough Korean pros" rather than who is playing.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 20 2013 07:54 teapoted wrote:
I don't think doing an all American tournament would be a bad tournament. I don't think the American teams are bad (in fact on average they are ranked very highly considering they have few but very good teams). But, when such a tournament is done will that title hold the weight of a Dreamhack title, or even a StarLadder title? Would such a tournament bring in the viewership of those tournaments?
Nobody here thinks it will, I don't even think MLG does.
This is basically just to test the waters for future MLG events--the fact that this one is invitation-only belies this fact. And honestly, the fact that this means we have one more major LAN potentially in the future makes this a big deal.
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Dota2 LAN events are very rare so it's almost guaranteed that the viewership will be big regardless which teams are playing (granted they are at least known).
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On August 20 2013 07:51 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 07:45 SKC wrote:On August 20 2013 07:43 Kipsate wrote:
Alliance are the champions of TI3, ofcourse they will draw more viewers. That's obvious. What he said is that noone will care about a LAN that doesn't have Alliance or Navi, which is a much stronger statement. I would say that statement is being deliberately hyperbolic (and if it's not then I have nothing to say to teapoted, because the idea that *nobody* will care about a DotA 2 LAN is ridiculous--given how rare big name LANs are for DotA 2 right now, there's a significant viewer pool that will care right now simply because it's a LAN in DotA 2 with teams they've heard of). Realistically he just doesn't think the event will be a success, but nobody has offered a metric of what they think "success" means so everyone is just waving their hands around in the dark.
Which is why hyperbolic statements like that are awful in this context. You are basically saying nothing, since you can always backtrack on it since it was an obvious "joke". It's clear some people will watch it, a lot probally will, and it would have more vality than some other random tournaments like a DH invitational with 2GD playing. It's obvious the tournament benefits from Navi and Alliance, but it wouldn't be an outright failure just because they may not have them.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On August 20 2013 07:56 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 07:54 teapoted wrote:
I don't think doing an all American tournament would be a bad tournament. I don't think the American teams are bad (in fact on average they are ranked very highly considering they have few but very good teams). But, when such a tournament is done will that title hold the weight of a Dreamhack title, or even a StarLadder title? Would such a tournament bring in the viewership of those tournaments? Nobody here thinks it will, I don't even think MLG does. This is basically just to test the waters for future MLG events--the fact that this one is invitation-only belies this fact. And honestly, the fact that this means we have one more major LAN potentially in the future makes this a big deal. I think 3 american teams + Alliance or Na'Vi (especially Na'Vi) would equal Dreamhack numbers. Considering of course that it is after TI and viewership is expected to go up slightly from new players.
It's Florida so the time-zone won't be completely terrible.On August 20 2013 07:58 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 07:51 TheYango wrote:On August 20 2013 07:45 SKC wrote:On August 20 2013 07:43 Kipsate wrote:
Alliance are the champions of TI3, ofcourse they will draw more viewers. That's obvious. What he said is that noone will care about a LAN that doesn't have Alliance or Navi, which is a much stronger statement. I would say that statement is being deliberately hyperbolic (and if it's not then I have nothing to say to teapoted, because the idea that *nobody* will care about a DotA 2 LAN is ridiculous--given how rare big name LANs are for DotA 2 right now, there's a significant viewer pool that will care right now simply because it's a LAN in DotA 2 with teams they've heard of). Realistically he just doesn't think the event will be a success, but nobody has offered a metric of what they think "success" means so everyone is just waving their hands around in the dark. Which is why hyperbolic statements like that are awful in this context. You are basically saying nothing, since you can always backtrack on it since it was an obvious "joke". It's clear some people will watch it, a lot probally will, and it would have more vality than some other random tournaments like a DH invitational with 2GD playing. It's obvious the tournament benefits from Navi and Alliance, but it wouldn't be an outright failure just because they may not have them. You scathe my hyperbole and then say that I claimed it would be an outright failure if they did it? I never said anything like that. It's pretty clear what I meant but I clarified anyway.
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The teams that attend are going to depend on one thing: Travel costs. It will have nothing to do with who is good and who isn't Its going to be about who can afford to go and how much could they win. MGL might throw some money in to make sure more teams can attend, but its all going to depend on who can afford to go.
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EPT
