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On August 16 2013 03:04 cecek wrote:
How would you lane him? He doesn't do well against the popular solo mids. Puck, qop, beastmaster, OD and even DK absolutely ridicule him with nerfed bottlecrowing. (On the other hand Na'Vi won a game with solo mid wisp at TI3 finals, so what the fuck do I know.) Other than laning, I think he's too reliant on his ultimate. It seems like there's a lot of smaller scale fights in Dota recently, rather thanj big 5on5s. So if you use your ult to win one fight, you might lose a rosh and/or towers while it's cooling. Also does nothing against splitpushing and can't really splitpush himself, etc.
Just a lot of little things together, I think.
I think Panda vs DK and Beast are pretty even lanes (kunkka would be manageable as well).
I think the fact that he is so reliant on CD is pretty important, however, and the popularity of split pushing atm.
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On August 16 2013 02:41 Daozzt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 02:19 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On August 16 2013 02:14 BurningSera wrote:
I dont quite like agha on jug until my damage in between the omnislashes is high enough to justifies its cost. You need to get agha before the enemies have a reliable way to prevent the slashes if you're going to pick it up. The additional damage is excellent; the problem with the additional slashes is that it is very easy to ghost scepter or manta and nullify all the damage. If you get it too late then all the enemies will have these items and you won't be able to make use of the extra slashes so it is wasted gold. I dunno, I play Jugg a lot and I felt that there was never a situation where I thought "man I wish I had aghs", and I've experimented with a lot of builds. Most of the time it's phase/drums/yasha for normal games. When you're playing 1 and need to rice there's always battlefury, which I think is still pretty decent. It's just that if you rush aghs, you're not even sure you'll get 100% use out of it because the slashes may be wasted, you do no right click damage outside your ult, and you farm really slowly to your next item after you pick it up. I'd personally only get it in those ricing games as a 2nd or 3rd item after battlefury.
Yup, thats why i rarely even got agha as my 6th item, AB or divine all the way.
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Can anyone connect to the dota2 network? I get stuck at the splash screen with the "connecting to dota2 network" display....
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On August 16 2013 03:06 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 03:04 cecek wrote:
How would you lane him? He doesn't do well against the popular solo mids. Puck, qop, beastmaster, OD and even DK absolutely ridicule him with nerfed bottlecrowing. (On the other hand Na'Vi won a game with solo mid wisp at TI3 finals, so what the fuck do I know.) Other than laning, I think he's too reliant on his ultimate. It seems like there's a lot of smaller scale fights in Dota recently, rather thanj big 5on5s. So if you use your ult to win one fight, you might lose a rosh and/or towers while it's cooling. Also does nothing against splitpushing and can't really splitpush himself, etc.
Just a lot of little things together, I think. I think Panda vs DK and Beast are pretty even lanes (kunkka would be manageable as well). I think the fact that he is so reliant on CD is pretty important, however, and the popularity of split pushing atm.
Well, brew will get farm, but he won't do well at all. All of these heroes have better passives and better nukes for the midlane. And even if he traded evenly, I would rather have DK/Beast/Kunkka than Brewmaster.
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United States47024 Posts
Panda actually should beat Beastmaster and DK.
On August 16 2013 03:14 cecek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 03:06 Comeh wrote:On August 16 2013 03:04 cecek wrote:
How would you lane him? He doesn't do well against the popular solo mids. Puck, qop, beastmaster, OD and even DK absolutely ridicule him with nerfed bottlecrowing. (On the other hand Na'Vi won a game with solo mid wisp at TI3 finals, so what the fuck do I know.) Other than laning, I think he's too reliant on his ultimate. It seems like there's a lot of smaller scale fights in Dota recently, rather thanj big 5on5s. So if you use your ult to win one fight, you might lose a rosh and/or towers while it's cooling. Also does nothing against splitpushing and can't really splitpush himself, etc.
Just a lot of little things together, I think. I think Panda vs DK and Beast are pretty even lanes (kunkka would be manageable as well). I think the fact that he is so reliant on CD is pretty important, however, and the popularity of split pushing atm. Well, brew will get farm, but he won't do well at all. All of these heroes have better passives and better nukes for the midlane. And even if he traded evenly, I would rather have DK/Beast/Kunkka than Brewmaster.
What? How are Beastmaster's Passive/Nuke better than Panda's?
When Chinese teams first started playing Brew in late 6.72, they were picking it as a counter-lane to Beastmaster.
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United States47024 Posts
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soooo...
no grudgematch then? come'oooooooooon...
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On August 16 2013 03:07 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 02:41 Daozzt wrote:On August 16 2013 02:19 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On August 16 2013 02:14 BurningSera wrote:
I dont quite like agha on jug until my damage in between the omnislashes is high enough to justifies its cost. You need to get agha before the enemies have a reliable way to prevent the slashes if you're going to pick it up. The additional damage is excellent; the problem with the additional slashes is that it is very easy to ghost scepter or manta and nullify all the damage. If you get it too late then all the enemies will have these items and you won't be able to make use of the extra slashes so it is wasted gold. I dunno, I play Jugg a lot and I felt that there was never a situation where I thought "man I wish I had aghs", and I've experimented with a lot of builds. Most of the time it's phase/drums/yasha for normal games. When you're playing 1 and need to rice there's always battlefury, which I think is still pretty decent. It's just that if you rush aghs, you're not even sure you'll get 100% use out of it because the slashes may be wasted, you do no right click damage outside your ult, and you farm really slowly to your next item after you pick it up. I'd personally only get it in those ricing games as a 2nd or 3rd item after battlefury. Yup, thats why i rarely even got agha as my 6th item, AB or divine all the way.
I try to close the game before being 6 slotted as jugg. I think that if your team is doing decent when you are farming with battlefury, you could have closed the game with drum yasha imo.
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How would panda beat Beastmaster? o.o BM has such a sick animation, Equal spam, plus hawk for vision and boar for lashit/harass.
DK I could see panda out-CSing maybe, but I'm not sure I see the "beating" part really. DK can just stun you for 3s and go back to lasthitting, and his breath fire is if nothing else a better cast point and hits seige units. Plus if you go ganking he takes your tower at 6.
Not saying you are wrong just would like to hear exactly how those heroes are supposed to lose to panda. Booze spray?
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On August 16 2013 03:18 Sn0_Man wrote:
How would panda beat Beastmaster? o.o BM has such a sick animation, Equal spam, plus hawk for vision and boar for lashit/harass.
DK I could see panda out-CSing maybe, but I'm not sure I see the "beating" part really. DK can just stun you for 3s and go back to lasthitting, and his breath fire is if nothing else a better cast point and hits seige units. Plus if you go ganking he takes your tower at 6.
Not saying you are wrong just would like to hear exactly how those heroes are supposed to lose to panda. Booze spray?
Max Booze + Crit with 1 level in stomp, go boots first and get your team to pool you, win game.
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Panda is just a hero people have forgotten about
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United States47024 Posts
Brew's animation is just as good as Beastmaster's and they have similar damage. Clap+Brawler outtrades Axes+Inner Beast because the attack speed slow on Clap is LARGER than the Attack Speed buff from Inner Beast, and with Brawler on top, Brew wins a straight-up trade in the creep wave if Beastmaster tries to come up to last-hit/auto trade. Getting 2 Call is a completely different issue, but that typically requires Beastmaster to sacrifice ranks in something else.
On August 16 2013 03:22 Shaella wrote:
Panda is just a hero people have forgotten about
The pace of the game is too fast for an ult-reliant hero like Brew to be in the game. I think he probably could have gotten picked once at TI3 given the fact that similarly ult-reliant heroes like Tide and Enigma still got picked a couple times. But he's very situational now.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On August 16 2013 03:14 TheYango wrote:Panda actually should beat Beastmaster and DK. Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 03:14 cecek wrote:On August 16 2013 03:06 Comeh wrote:On August 16 2013 03:04 cecek wrote:
How would you lane him? He doesn't do well against the popular solo mids. Puck, qop, beastmaster, OD and even DK absolutely ridicule him with nerfed bottlecrowing. (On the other hand Na'Vi won a game with solo mid wisp at TI3 finals, so what the fuck do I know.) Other than laning, I think he's too reliant on his ultimate. It seems like there's a lot of smaller scale fights in Dota recently, rather thanj big 5on5s. So if you use your ult to win one fight, you might lose a rosh and/or towers while it's cooling. Also does nothing against splitpushing and can't really splitpush himself, etc.
Just a lot of little things together, I think. I think Panda vs DK and Beast are pretty even lanes (kunkka would be manageable as well). I think the fact that he is so reliant on CD is pretty important, however, and the popularity of split pushing atm. Well, brew will get farm, but he won't do well at all. All of these heroes have better passives and better nukes for the midlane. And even if he traded evenly, I would rather have DK/Beast/Kunkka than Brewmaster. What? How are Beastmaster's Passive/Nuke better than Panda's? When Chinese teams first started playing Brew in late 6.72, they were picking it as a counter-lane to Beastmaster.
Aura is definitely a better laning passive than drunken brawler, especially when you have to skip it on Brew because you need the stats for mana if you want to rush the blinjk before arcanes (which you have to do or you're useless for the first 15 minutes). Axes vs clap is debatable, but I think axes are more versatile, you can use it on ancients (even stack with them on radiant), better range, composite (w/e it's called) damage, etc. Clap does more damage for less mana, so I guess we can call it a wash on this one.
edit:
On August 16 2013 03:22 TheYango wrote:Brew's animation is just as good as Beastmaster's and they have similar damage. Clap+Brawler outtrades Axes+Inner Beast because the attack speed slow on Clap is LARGER than the Attack Speed buff from Inner Beast, and with Brawler on top, Brew wins a straight-up trade in the creep wave if Beastmaster tries to come up to last-hit/auto trade. Getting 2 Call is a completely different issue, but that typically requires Beastmaster to sacrifice ranks in something else. Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 03:22 Shaella wrote:
Panda is just a hero people have forgotten about The pace of the game is too fast for an ult-reliant hero like Brew to be in the game. I think he probably could have gotten picked once at TI3 given the fact that similarly ult-reliant heroes like Tide and Enigma still got picked a couple times. But he's very situational now.
Jesus man, how is that even relevant? Comparing attack speed reduction of thunder clap versus attack speed bonus of Beast aura.... You can't be serious.
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Huh, so Brew's animation is closer to BM's than i thought (.35 vs .30). Yeah, i suppose if you wanna go inner beast then you are gonna have a worse lane.
@Shaella I don't think panda is forgotten about so much as his midgame isn't THAT much better than some other popular mids who scale a LOT better late. (heroes like magnus, beastmaster, DK).
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United States47024 Posts
Mixed damage is weaker than magic damage unless you're against magic immunity because it's doubly reduced by both magic resistance and armor. In lane, the fact that it does damage through magic immunity is totally irrelevant.
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@cecek we are discussing the 1v1 laning power not the overall usefulness.
Or rather, the DIRECT panda/bm abilities comparison was because I didn't see how BM could lose to panda in lane while Yango assured me that he does.
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I thought that one axe dealt magic dmg and the other axe dealt physical dmg n-n
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On August 16 2013 03:28 TheYango wrote:
Mixed damage is weaker than magic damage unless you're against magic immunity because it's doubly reduced by both magic resistance and armor. In lane, the fact that it does damage through magic immunity is totally irrelevant.
My main point is that it's versatile. You can nuke the creeps from far away if you're going for a rune. If his lane gets pushed by multiple hereos, he can pull the creeps away, he can farm (and stack from lane) ancients with it, he can get the occasional lucky courier kill with it (does that still work?), it cuts down trees, etc.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 16 2013 03:24 cecek wrote:
Jesus man, how is that even relevant? Comparing attack speed reduction of thunder clap versus attack speed bonus of Beast aura.... You can't be serious.
It's relevant because it's how Beastmaster actually wins autoattack trades against melee heroes--through the fact that Inner Beast increases the potency of having creep aggro on your side because your creeps are attacking him ~20% faster than his creeps are attacking you (this is actually the ENTIRE POINT of having rank 1-2 Inner Beast in lane--to give you automatic lane pressure and an advantage in autoattack trades). The attack speed reduction from Clap is relevant because with 8 second duration, it negates this advantage and an additional 10% Crit/Dodge means that if you force an auto trade on Beastmaster in the creep wave, he has to back off because he will always lose the trade if you use Clap. Which means that while he can throw Axes at you and harass you, if he actually tries to come up to lasthit, you push Clap damage onto him and then auto him a couple times to punish him for the lasthit.
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On August 16 2013 03:22 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 03:22 Shaella wrote:
Panda is just a hero people have forgotten about The pace of the game is too fast for an ult-reliant hero like Brew to be in the game. I think he probably could have gotten picked once at TI3 given the fact that similarly ult-reliant heroes like Tide and Enigma still got picked a couple times. But he's very situational now.
Surely though Panda isn't AS ult reliant as tide and enigma. As long as he has blink he can still do things. Both his other skills are extremely good.
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EPT
