On August 12 2013 14:59 Caladbolg wrote: Quick non-TI3 related question:
I've just gotten a couple of close friends to get really addicted to Dota. Now my problem is they want to 5-stack all the time, which is fine, but the roles are a bit messed up due to the fact that the skill levels are so diverse. Now I'm not going for a fully competitive team, but at least we want to win the majority of our AP/SD/CM games. That said, how do we diversify the roles/positions of everyone? This is the distribution of the players:
Player A. Played/Watched Dota since 5.84 days. Best (and most experienced) player. Used to play in local tournaments vs WCG-bound teams. Plays all positions, but has the most experience solo-mid. Up to date with current meta. In High/Very High bracket.
Player B: Played/Watched Dota since 5.84 days. Casual watcher/player. Decent in lane, but bad decision-making. Good at snowball heroes that aren't high mobility. Can play carry decently (and well, if baby-sat by good support).
Player C: Played/Watched Dota since 5.84 days, Casual watcher/player. Decent to good at certain heroes (Viper especially). Good decision-making. Weak mechanics, weak reaction, but very cerebral player. Can't play carry very well, unless ranged carry.
Player D: Played/Watched Dota since 6.xx days. Casual player, but doesn't watch pros. Bad map awareness. Decent at farming. Good when paired with teammate, bad solo. Can carry, but doesn't keep good creep equilibrium.
Player E: Only recently played Dota. Very fast learner. Hardcore watcher, plays as often as Player A. Good map awareness, bad decision-making. Decent solo player. Very good Huskar/Viper/Lich player. Still learning (and learning very fast) to the point that Player A thinks Player E is now the 2nd best player on the team.
Anyway I'd like to ask for your advice as to how we can best play. What positions should the players take? Player A, for example, is me (not trying to be arrogant, since I get utterly owned at times in pubs at High/VH), and I've recently felt that my pub games go better when I actually play support. I normally feed, but we always have better warding and teamfights. Sometimes I feel though that I could have played solo mid and dictated the teams' pace much more than as a support, and of course done much better in terms of lane dominance.
My question boils down to this: assuming a team of players who can be objectively be ranked 1-5 in terms of skill, which ones would you put at which position?
I'll give you the not competitive answer. Figure out which heroes people like to play and which positions they feel most comfortable. Hopefully if you have some team comp you can work with and have fun with. I think that having fun with your friends is a little more important than trying to impose strict roles and competition. (At least until you start losing regularly)
I've just gotten a couple of close friends to get really addicted to Dota. Now my problem is they want to 5-stack all the time, which is fine, but the roles are a bit messed up due to the fact that the skill levels are so diverse. Now I'm not going for a fully competitive team, but at least we want to win the majority of our AP/SD/CM games. That said, how do we diversify the roles/positions of everyone? This is the distribution of the players:
Player A. Played/Watched Dota since 5.84 days. Best (and most experienced) player. Used to play in local tournaments vs WCG-bound teams. Plays all positions, but has the most experience solo-mid. Up to date with current meta. In High/Very High bracket.
Player B: Played/Watched Dota since 5.84 days. Casual watcher/player. Decent in lane, but bad decision-making. Good at snowball heroes that aren't high mobility. Can play carry decently (and well, if baby-sat by good support).
Player C: Played/Watched Dota since 5.84 days, Casual watcher/player. Decent to good at certain heroes (Viper especially). Good decision-making. Weak mechanics, weak reaction, but very cerebral player. Can't play carry very well, unless ranged carry.
Player D: Played/Watched Dota since 6.xx days. Casual player, but doesn't watch pros. Bad map awareness. Decent at farming. Good when paired with teammate, bad solo. Can carry, but doesn't keep good creep equilibrium.
Player E: Only recently played Dota. Very fast learner. Hardcore watcher, plays as often as Player A. Good map awareness, bad decision-making. Decent solo player. Very good Huskar/Viper/Lich player. Still learning (and learning very fast) to the point that Player A thinks Player E is now the 2nd best player on the team.
Anyway I'd like to ask for your advice as to how we can best play. What positions should the players take? Player A, for example, is me (not trying to be arrogant, since I get utterly owned at times in pubs at High/VH), and I've recently felt that my pub games go better when I actually play support. I normally feed, but we always have better warding and teamfights. Sometimes I feel though that I could have played solo mid and dictated the teams' pace much more than as a support, and of course done much better in terms of lane dominance.
My question boils down to this: assuming a team of players who can be objectively be ranked 1-5 in terms of skill, which ones would you put at which position?
Now I'm not going for a fully competitive team, but at least we want to win the majority of our AP/SD/CM games.
This is not a good mindset to have. You are supposed to win only half of your games. If you play often in the same stack and you are not at the top of the matchmaking, you should not win the majority of the time.
Whoever should play what is hard to say without knowing the players. In the end, it should be mostly about which role each player feels comfortable with, there isn't really a set of rules, as long as you get a carry that knows how to farm (and likes to farm) and your mid should probally not be the worst player on the team. The best way is just to play and see how things work, adjusting as you go. Even pro teams shuffle positions sometimes.
I've just gotten a couple of close friends to get really addicted to Dota. Now my problem is they want to 5-stack all the time, which is fine, but the roles are a bit messed up due to the fact that the skill levels are so diverse. Now I'm not going for a fully competitive team, but at least we want to win the majority of our AP/SD/CM games. That said, how do we diversify the roles/positions of everyone? This is the distribution of the players:
Player A. Played/Watched Dota since 5.84 days. Best (and most experienced) player. Used to play in local tournaments vs WCG-bound teams. Plays all positions, but has the most experience solo-mid. Up to date with current meta. In High/Very High bracket.
Player B: Played/Watched Dota since 5.84 days. Casual watcher/player. Decent in lane, but bad decision-making. Good at snowball heroes that aren't high mobility. Can play carry decently (and well, if baby-sat by good support).
Player C: Played/Watched Dota since 5.84 days, Casual watcher/player. Decent to good at certain heroes (Viper especially). Good decision-making. Weak mechanics, weak reaction, but very cerebral player. Can't play carry very well, unless ranged carry.
Player D: Played/Watched Dota since 6.xx days. Casual player, but doesn't watch pros. Bad map awareness. Decent at farming. Good when paired with teammate, bad solo. Can carry, but doesn't keep good creep equilibrium.
Player E: Only recently played Dota. Very fast learner. Hardcore watcher, plays as often as Player A. Good map awareness, bad decision-making. Decent solo player. Very good Huskar/Viper/Lich player. Still learning (and learning very fast) to the point that Player A thinks Player E is now the 2nd best player on the team.
Anyway I'd like to ask for your advice as to how we can best play. What positions should the players take? Player A, for example, is me (not trying to be arrogant, since I get utterly owned at times in pubs at High/VH), and I've recently felt that my pub games go better when I actually play support. I normally feed, but we always have better warding and teamfights. Sometimes I feel though that I could have played solo mid and dictated the teams' pace much more than as a support, and of course done much better in terms of lane dominance.
My question boils down to this: assuming a team of players who can be objectively be ranked 1-5 in terms of skill, which ones would you put at which position?
Now I'm not going for a fully competitive team, but at least we want to win the majority of our AP/SD/CM games.
This is not a good mindset to have. You are supposed to win only half of your games. If you play often in the same stack and you are not at the top of the matchmaking, you should not win the majority of the time.
Whoever should play what is hard to say without knowing the players. In the end, it should be mostly about which role each player feels comfortable with, there isn't really a set of rules, as long as you get a carry that knows how to farm (and likes to farm) and your mid should probally not be the worst player on the team. The best way is just to play and see how things work, adjusting as you go. Even pro teams shuffle positions sometimes.
I've just gotten a couple of close friends to get really addicted to Dota. Now my problem is they want to 5-stack all the time, which is fine, but the roles are a bit messed up due to the fact that the skill levels are so diverse. Now I'm not going for a fully competitive team, but at least we want to win the majority of our AP/SD/CM games. That said, how do we diversify the roles/positions of everyone? This is the distribution of the players:
Player A. Played/Watched Dota since 5.84 days. Best (and most experienced) player. Used to play in local tournaments vs WCG-bound teams. Plays all positions, but has the most experience solo-mid. Up to date with current meta. In High/Very High bracket.
Player B: Played/Watched Dota since 5.84 days. Casual watcher/player. Decent in lane, but bad decision-making. Good at snowball heroes that aren't high mobility. Can play carry decently (and well, if baby-sat by good support).
Player C: Played/Watched Dota since 5.84 days, Casual watcher/player. Decent to good at certain heroes (Viper especially). Good decision-making. Weak mechanics, weak reaction, but very cerebral player. Can't play carry very well, unless ranged carry.
Player D: Played/Watched Dota since 6.xx days. Casual player, but doesn't watch pros. Bad map awareness. Decent at farming. Good when paired with teammate, bad solo. Can carry, but doesn't keep good creep equilibrium.
Player E: Only recently played Dota. Very fast learner. Hardcore watcher, plays as often as Player A. Good map awareness, bad decision-making. Decent solo player. Very good Huskar/Viper/Lich player. Still learning (and learning very fast) to the point that Player A thinks Player E is now the 2nd best player on the team.
Anyway I'd like to ask for your advice as to how we can best play. What positions should the players take? Player A, for example, is me (not trying to be arrogant, since I get utterly owned at times in pubs at High/VH), and I've recently felt that my pub games go better when I actually play support. I normally feed, but we always have better warding and teamfights. Sometimes I feel though that I could have played solo mid and dictated the teams' pace much more than as a support, and of course done much better in terms of lane dominance.
My question boils down to this: assuming a team of players who can be objectively be ranked 1-5 in terms of skill, which ones would you put at which position?
Now I'm not going for a fully competitive team, but at least we want to win the majority of our AP/SD/CM games.
This is not a good mindset to have. You are supposed to win only half of your games. If you play often in the same stack and you are not at the top of the matchmaking, you should not win the majority of the time.
Whoever should play what is hard to say without knowing the players. In the end, it should be mostly about which role each player feels comfortable with, there isn't really a set of rules, as long as you get a carry that knows how to farm (and likes to farm) and your mid should probally not be the worst player on the team. The best way is just to play and see how things work, adjusting as you go. Even pro teams shuffle positions sometimes.
valve mmr system doesnt force 50/50
No MMR system forces 50/50, yet all MMR systems should result in aproximatelly the same amount of wins and losses when it settles. Specially considering they are always playing with the same group and the same roles. I'm not sure what's wrong with the statement that he shouldn't expect to win the majority of the games unless he is at the top of the ladder.
Making people play certain roles doesn't actually accomplish anything unless you are at the very top and want to be competitive. Just pick whatever you want in pubs and have fun. Teams with varying skill levels don't go anywhere.
I see. You're all right, of course, but now and then we decide to "tryhard" and at that point in time, I'm a bit confused as to which roles we should all play.
On August 12 2013 15:04 Firebolt145 wrote: Play whatever you guys feel like playing. Don't focus on winning, focus on improving your own game and having a good time.
Yeah we generally do that but the thing is, after a couple of games, they want to play a bit seriously and keep asking me which heroes/roles they should play, and I don't really want to give them roles that don't "fit" their skill and playstyle.
On August 12 2013 15:08 rwrzr wrote:
I'll give you the not competitive answer. Figure out which heroes people like to play and which positions they feel most comfortable. Hopefully if you have some team comp you can work with and have fun with. I think that having fun with your friends is a little more important than trying to impose strict roles and competition. (At least until you start losing regularly)
THEN you can sort this stuff out.
It's not so much an imposition hehe. They keep asking me to tell them what to do and at the times that I do give out roles, I find that we suck pretty badly and some of us get a bit heated (aka, Player C, my sister, and sometimes myself hehe).
On August 12 2013 15:09 SKC wrote:
This is not a good mindset to have. You are supposed to win only half of your games. If you play often in the same stack and you are not at the top of the matchmaking, you should not win the majority of the time.
Whoever should play what is hard to say without knowing the players. In the end, it should be mostly about which role each player feels comfortable with, there isn't really a set of rules, as long as you get a carry that knows how to farm (and likes to farm) and your mid should probally not be the worst player on the team. The best way is just to play and see how things work, adjusting as you go. Even pro teams shuffle positions sometimes.
We've only played very few games, but I think everyone wants to start playing as a stack more often. I was thinking that mid should be the best (for pubs at least), but sometimes even when mid gets off to a fantastic start, the enemy carry begins to scale and our carry falls off due to bad last-hitting/farming awareness.
On August 12 2013 15:19 Daozzt wrote: Making people play certain roles doesn't actually accomplish anything unless you are at the very top and want to be competitive. Just pick whatever you want in pubs and have fun. Teams with varying skill levels don't go anywhere.
It works for DK, with Burning and Throwtk! Hehe sorry bad joke.
On August 12 2013 14:59 Caladbolg wrote: Quick non-TI3 related question:
I've just gotten a couple of close friends to get really addicted to Dota. Now my problem is they want to 5-stack all the time, which is fine, but the roles are a bit messed up due to the fact that the skill levels are so diverse. Now I'm not going for a fully competitive team, but at least we want to win the majority of our AP/SD/CM games. That said, how do we diversify the roles/positions of everyone? This is the distribution of the players:
Player A. Played/Watched Dota since 5.84 days. Best (and most experienced) player. Used to play in local tournaments vs WCG-bound teams. Plays all positions, but has the most experience solo-mid. Up to date with current meta. In High/Very High bracket.
Player B: Played/Watched Dota since 5.84 days. Casual watcher/player. Decent in lane, but bad decision-making. Good at snowball heroes that aren't high mobility. Can play carry decently (and well, if baby-sat by good support).
Player C: Played/Watched Dota since 5.84 days, Casual watcher/player. Decent to good at certain heroes (Viper especially). Good decision-making. Weak mechanics, weak reaction, but very cerebral player. Can't play carry very well, unless ranged carry.
Player D: Played/Watched Dota since 6.xx days. Casual player, but doesn't watch pros. Bad map awareness. Decent at farming. Good when paired with teammate, bad solo. Can carry, but doesn't keep good creep equilibrium.
Player E: Only recently played Dota. Very fast learner. Hardcore watcher, plays as often as Player A. Good map awareness, bad decision-making. Decent solo player. Very good Huskar/Viper/Lich player. Still learning (and learning very fast) to the point that Player A thinks Player E is now the 2nd best player on the team.
Anyway I'd like to ask for your advice as to how we can best play. What positions should the players take? Player A, for example, is me (not trying to be arrogant, since I get utterly owned at times in pubs at High/VH), and I've recently felt that my pub games go better when I actually play support. I normally feed, but we always have better warding and teamfights. Sometimes I feel though that I could have played solo mid and dictated the teams' pace much more than as a support, and of course done much better in terms of lane dominance.
My question boils down to this: assuming a team of players who can be objectively be ranked 1-5 in terms of skill, which ones would you put at which position?
Oh I love logical puzzles. First, try to take the current meta as guidelines, not rules. If TI3 showed anything, even the majority of pro teams can have errors in judgment(Naga being actually highly relevant etc.)
Player B description confuses me. Low mobility snowball heroes? Good at snowballing but bad decision making? I assume it means he is good at playing from ahead but bad at catching up.
Going by what you said(how I understood it at least): Generally try this: Put C on solo mid. He should focus on suppressing the enemy, not on lasthits. (Dendi is actually only average at lasthitting, for example). Put D on the safelane(duh, you implied he can't be left solo), try jungling him. Put B on carry. Put A and D as support/jungle duo.
Keep rotating D through positions so he can learn in broad strokes.
Since according to you no one but A can play a role well I think you're overly critical in the description. Since you don't even bother mentioning support at all I assume they're non secretly awful at it. Which is to be expected, high level support play is basically all decision making, since you aren't even bound to a lane. If any other player has interest in playing support seriously, tag them along in a support duo. If all someone does is run next to an experienced support, they should learn decently just by copying.
Also you got almost through the description without saying you're the best. Not that it was particularly hard with A being the only player without weaknesses. Try to be more humble. Also try to relax, tryharding can will be stressful for those that let the team down(there will always be a perceived weakest link)
Oh I love logical puzzles. First, try to take the current meta as guidelines, not rules. If TI3 showed anything, even the majority of pro teams can have errors in judgment(Naga being actually highly relevant etc.)
Player B description confuses me. Low mobility snowball heroes? Good at snowballing but bad decision making? I assume it means he is good at playing from ahead but bad at catching up.
Going by what you said(how I understood it at least): Generally try this: Put C on solo mid. He should focus on suppressing the enemy, not on lasthits. (Dendi is actually only average at lasthitting, for example). Put D on the safelane(duh, you implied he can't be left solo), try jungling him. Put B on carry. Put A and D as support/jungle duo.
Keep rotating D through positions so he can learn in broad strokes.
Since according to you no one but A can play a role well I think you're overly critical in the description. Since you don't even bother mentioning support at all I assume they're non secretly awful at it. Which is to be expected, high level support play is basically all decision making, since you aren't even bound to a lane. If any other player has interest in playing support seriously, tag them along in a support duo. If all someone does is run next to an experienced support, they should learn decently just by copying.
Also you got almost through the description without saying you're the best. Not that it was particularly hard with A being the only player without weaknesses. Try to be more humble. Also try to relax, tryharding can will be stressful for those that let the team down(there will always be a perceived weakest link)
By the D support, you mean E right?
No I'm serious in the description, not so much because I'm a major egomaniac but because everyone else has never been in a competitive environment like Dota. I fully acknowledge that my skill is not very good when faced with a lot of players in High/VH, but say in a 1v1 solo match against any of them, I'd barely get scratched. Simply because they haven't had much experience in actual competitive play. For example, I'd rate myself (compared to most regulars here in GD) an abysmal 4 rating (just like xboct hehe) in most positions except maybe solo mid.
I think when you reach a certain level of experience in Dota, you lose most "weaknesses" and just have specific strengths. Pubstars have exceedingly amazing individual strengths. And pro players have those in spades, in most if not all aspects of the game (thus the difference between pros is altogether differently categorized).
Oh I love logical puzzles. First, try to take the current meta as guidelines, not rules. If TI3 showed anything, even the majority of pro teams can have errors in judgment(Naga being actually highly relevant etc.)
Player B description confuses me. Low mobility snowball heroes? Good at snowballing but bad decision making? I assume it means he is good at playing from ahead but bad at catching up.
Going by what you said(how I understood it at least): Generally try this: Put C on solo mid. He should focus on suppressing the enemy, not on lasthits. (Dendi is actually only average at lasthitting, for example). Put D on the safelane(duh, you implied he can't be left solo), try jungling him. Put B on carry. Put A and D as support/jungle duo.
Keep rotating D through positions so he can learn in broad strokes.
Since according to you no one but A can play a role well I think you're overly critical in the description. Since you don't even bother mentioning support at all I assume they're non secretly awful at it. Which is to be expected, high level support play is basically all decision making, since you aren't even bound to a lane. If any other player has interest in playing support seriously, tag them along in a support duo. If all someone does is run next to an experienced support, they should learn decently just by copying.
Also you got almost through the description without saying you're the best. Not that it was particularly hard with A being the only player without weaknesses. Try to be more humble. Also try to relax, tryharding can will be stressful for those that let the team down(there will always be a perceived weakest link)
By the D support, you mean E right?
No I'm serious in the description, not so much because I'm a major egomaniac but because everyone else has never been in a competitive environment like Dota. I fully acknowledge that my skill is not very good when faced with a lot of players in High/VH, but say in a 1v1 solo match against any of them, I'd barely get scratched. Simply because they haven't had much experience in actual competitive play. For example, I'd rate myself (compared to most regulars here in GD) an abysmal 4 rating (just like xboct hehe) in most positions except maybe solo mid.
I think when you reach a certain level of experience in Dota, you lose most "weaknesses" and just have specific strengths. Pubstars have exceedingly amazing individual strengths. And pro players have those in spades, in most if not all aspects of the game (thus the difference between pros is altogether differently categorized).
Sorry if I sounded arrogant.
Dont mind Mataza. I think you were just fine in that post. IMO the supports need to be good at decision making. Thus i would rank like this by position
1) D - He/She should do fine at carry, learn how to maintain creep equilibrium should make him your carry. 2) A - Mid. Bring the tempo. 3) E - Offlaner. Needs to live. Cant put a weak player there or he/she will get fed on. 4&5) B & C - Supports. Decision making will be key. Having the mid come and bring in the help will make A B C stronger together, letting D & E do their job.
But remember, those people must like their position. If not, your better off letting them play what they prefer rather than forcing them to play things they dont like.
EPT
