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On August 01 2013 01:26 Asymmetric wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:19 nojok wrote:Just start mana boots dagger in pubs plz  , any tiny farming his agha after treads/phase, and drum/yasha is always a painful thing to see, in my team or the ennemy team, it makes the game an awful 5o4 until tiny's team just lose. Fuck that, I'm not running that outdated build. It's not even good compared to heroes like Centaur with blink . Racecar tiny can just as easily farm heroes as well as creeps.
Arcane Blink is still fine for Tiny in pubs - Racecar is just a giant "GOD I HOPE MY SUPPORTS REALIZE I NEED MANA" kind of build in pubs. Its really snowbally though.
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On August 01 2013 01:19 nojok wrote:Just start mana boots dagger in pubs plz , any tiny farming his agha after treads/phase, and drum/yasha is always a painful thing to see, in my team or the ennemy team, it makes the game an awful 5o4 until tiny's team just lose.
You don't need to go mana boots to be an active tiny, i far prefer phase drums with bottle and then just getting kills and farming whenever there's time.
You don't NEED arcane boots to sustain as tiny.
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On August 01 2013 01:26 Asymmetric wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:19 nojok wrote:Just start mana boots dagger in pubs plz , any tiny farming his agha after treads/phase, and drum/yasha is always a painful thing to see, in my team or the ennemy team, it makes the game an awful 5o4 until tiny's team just lose. Fuck that, I'm not running that outdated build. It's not even good compared to heroes like Centaur with blink . Racecar tiny can just as easily farm heroes as well as creeps.
It's only 'outdated' in the sense that carry Tiny is more popular. Arcane/Blink Dagger Tiny is still one of the most lethal gankers in the game if he gets a reasonable Arcane/Blink timing. It's even worse if he gets it fast due to someone's lane feeding (which happens alot in pubs). As such, he snowballs pretty hard in pubs with Arcane/Blink.
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On August 01 2013 01:32 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:26 Asymmetric wrote:On August 01 2013 01:19 nojok wrote:Just start mana boots dagger in pubs plz , any tiny farming his agha after treads/phase, and drum/yasha is always a painful thing to see, in my team or the ennemy team, it makes the game an awful 5o4 until tiny's team just lose. Fuck that, I'm not running that outdated build. It's not even good compared to heroes like Centaur with blink . Racecar tiny can just as easily farm heroes as well as creeps. It's only 'outdated' in the sense that carry Tiny is more popular. Arcane/Blink Dagger Tiny is still one of the most lethal gankers in the game if he gets a reasonable Arcane/Blink timing. It's even worse if he gets it fast due to someone's lane feeding (which happens alot in pubs). As such, he snowballs pretty hard in pubs with Arcane/Blink.
phase/drums/bottle tiny really doesn't lose much of ganking power of blink arcane tiny but it is so much more flexible for pubs.
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just go striaght aghs before anything and get it at the 13-14 mark? If you're slow and 1v2 and vs nyx/sb of course while your team is feeding.
i mean, come on, it's fucking tiny!
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United States47024 Posts
Arcanes+Blink is just better with a level advantage because you can solo kill people way more easily. In a competitive game, you won't see a Tiny with that kind of level advantage because he'd never be stable mid and you'd always trilane him. But in pub games, you can easily get Tiny the levels to make Arcanes+Blink worth it.
The level advantage is the critical component because it dictates how high your burst damage is relative to the enemy's HP, which dictates whether Arcane's+Blink will be worth it based on the kill opportunities you get that you couldn't possibly have gotten with Phase+Drum. Additionally, players in pub games are just more likely to make the mistakes that expose themselves to being solo killed, while in high level competitive games this is less likely to happen.
On August 01 2013 01:37 Asymmetric wrote:
phase/drums/bottle tiny really doesn't lose much of ganking power of blink arcane tiny but it is so much more flexible for pubs.
It really does, because you can't solo kill anything without putting yourself in danger (and you can't solo kill anything with a movement skill period).
The main thing is that it's almost entirely impractical to Ava-Toss someone without someone else helping out with Phase+Drum, because you have to chase far enough that you're next to them. If someone doesn't have a lead-off stun, you can't Ava-Toss without chasing forever, which limits you to kills that other people are there to help you out with. Whereas with Arcanes+Blink, you can get solo kills with Ava+Toss burst damage just by blinking next to them, comboing, and walking away.
Solo kills like this aren't common in competitive play because people are much more vigilant about being properly defensive (better ward coverage, supports ready to countergank their carry, etc.), but in pub games this isn't true even up to a very high level.
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On August 01 2013 01:40 Testuser wrote:
just go striaght aghs before anything and get it at the 13-14 mark? If you're slow and 1v2 and vs nyx/sb of course while your team is feeding.
i mean, come on, it's fucking tiny!
And remember to not level up your ult.
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lothars, the solution to all of life's problems
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On August 01 2013 01:41 TheYango wrote:Arcanes+Blink is just better with a level advantage because you can solo kill people way more easily. In a competitive game, you won't see a Tiny with that kind of level advantage because he'd never be stable mid and you'd always trilane him. But in pub games, you can easily get Tiny the levels to make Arcanes+Blink worth it. The level advantage is the critical component because it dictates how high your burst damage is relative to the enemy's HP, which dictates whether Arcane's+Blink will be worth it based on the kill opportunities you get that you couldn't possibly have gotten with Phase+Drum. Additionally, players in pub games are just more likely to make the mistakes that expose themselves to being solo killed, while in high level competitive games this is less likely to happen. Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:37 Asymmetric wrote:
phase/drums/bottle tiny really doesn't lose much of ganking power of blink arcane tiny but it is so much more flexible for pubs. It really does, because you can't solo kill anything without putting yourself in danger (and you can't solo kill anything with a movement skill period). The main thing is that it's almost entirely impractical to Ava-Toss someone without someone else helping out with Phase+Drum, because you have to chase far enough that you're next to them.
I'm highly dubious that blink dagger+arcane boots tiny is a more successful pub hero than phase drums tiny.
Restrictive build's lock you down to a particular game plan in a group with 4 other random people. Phase drums can farm, can turn up to team fights and wreck, he can chase heroes down and allows tiny to transition into a hard carry.
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its not necessarily a more successful pub hero but its a more successful 1 shot macro, which is usually strong in pubs.
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United States47024 Posts
Arcanes+Blink can farm and teamfight as well, I don't know why you'd feel this isn't the case. He'd arguably be a better teamfighter if you consider that being able to reliably get the bonus damage on Ava+Toss, therefore insta-killing someone, would do more than the later right click damage of Phase+Drum (though again, this is situational). Most of the teamfights in that level range are often quickly decided by the first round of spells and whether they kill anyone, not by right click damage.
Being able to Ava+Toss creep waves or jungle camps because you have the mana to do so arguably farms faster till the point where you have Agha.
Again, the effectiveness of either is dictated entirely by the state of the game (your level advantage, likelihood of solo kills, etc.). Saying Phase+Drum is always better is silly.
Arcanes+Blink does't lock you down. The transition back onto Agha->AC after Arcanes+Blink is a lot smoother than you're making it out to be.
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On August 01 2013 02:02 TheYango wrote:
Arcanes+Blink can farm and teamfight as well, I don't know why you'd feel this isn't the case. He'd arguably be a better teamfighter if you consider that being able to reliably get the bonus damage on Ava+Toss, therefore insta-killing someone, would do more than the later right click damage of Phase+Drum (though again, this is situational). Most of the teamfights in that level range are often quickly decided by the first round of spells and whether they kill anyone, not by right click damage.
Being able to Ava+Toss creep waves or jungle camps because you have the mana to do so arguably farms faster till the point where you have Agha.
Again, the effectiveness of either is dictated entirely by the state of the game (your level advantage, likelihood of solo kills, etc.). Saying Phase+Drum is always better is silly.
Arcanes+Blink does't lock you down. The transition back onto Agha->AC after Arcanes+Blink is a lot smoother than you're making it out to be.
The main argument of farming faster of blink and arcanes vs phase drums isn't really applicable - if you want to hard carry as Tiny, you build a fast Aghs after treads (or phase, if you're into that kind of thing, which you shoudn't be). Phase drums yasha is more of a build where you want mobility in fighitng, with some abilities to gank alright, while transitioning well into late game, however it is much weaker at ganking than anything with a blink, and does farm slower than with arcanes.
its a tradeoff, but I think I favor arcanes or treads aghs more.
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United States47024 Posts
Phase+Drum's effectiveness is highest when playing from behind, when you don't have the level advantage needed to be a burst threat and cannot afford to invest in items that require you to save a lot of gold or don't provide efficient combat stats.
Most people started copy-catting it after watching the EHOME Tiny+Wisp games at TI2, without realizing that virtually every game where they played the hero, they were playing from behind after early game (especially the iconic game vs Orange where they had a 10k gold disadvantage early), which is what made Phase+Drum applicable. Once teams actually got to experiment with the hero, they realized this and adapted other builds, such as Treads straight Agha like you mentioned.
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It's like people forgot solo mid tiny that goes around dominating with blink/bottle/arcanes.
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On August 01 2013 02:02 TheYango wrote:
Arcanes+Blink can farm and teamfight as well, I don't know why you'd feel this isn't the case. He'd arguably be a better teamfighter if you consider that being able to reliably get the bonus damage on Ava+Toss, therefore insta-killing someone would do more than the later right click damage of Phase+Drum (though again, this is situational). Most of the teamfights in that level range are often quickly decided by the first round of spells and whether they kill anyone, not by right click damage.
Being able to Ava+Toss creep waves or jungle camps because you have the mana to do so arguably farms faster till the point where you have Agha.
Again, the effectiveness of either is dictated entirely by the state of the game (your level advantage, likelihood of solo kills, etc.). Saying Phase+Drum is always better is silly.
Situational.
Useful when your ahead already in levels or when my opponents are playing without caution is the definition of "win-more" and not games that arguably require additional help to win.
The situation you are more commonly pressed with is whether you have free farm enough to go straight treads/agha's or whether you need to scrimp by with phase boots and drums.
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edit: delete double post.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 01 2013 02:31 Asymmetric wrote:
Useful when your ahead already in levels or when my opponents are playing without caution is the definition of "win-more" and not games that arguably require additional help to win.
You've never had a game where you're doing extremely well in lane, but your sidelanes are all fucked and you need to exert solo pressure to help the rest of your team get back into the game?
Because to me this sounds like a very common occurence in pub games and games that can legitimately be won on this kind of item choice. You personally being ahead in levels or your opponents playing carelessly very frequently does not mean you are winning in pubs. More often it means you have to turn your solo advantage into a team advantage, and Arcanes+Blink does this very well because it allows you to exert map pressure alone through your solo-killing ability.
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On August 01 2013 02:27 Numy wrote:
It's like people forgot solo mid tiny that goes around dominating with blink/bottle/arcanes.
You can attribute that to Tiny not having any favorable mid matchups.
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On August 01 2013 02:36 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:31 Asymmetric wrote:
Useful when your ahead already in levels or when my opponents are playing without caution is the definition of "win-more" and not games that arguably require additional help to win.
You've never had a game where you're doing extremely well in lane, but your sidelanes are all fucked and you need to exert solo pressure to help the rest of your team get back into the game? Because to me this sounds like a very common occurence in pub games and games that can legitimately be won on this kind of item choice. You personally being ahead in levels or your opponents playing carelessly very frequently does not mean you are winning in pubs.
I can perhaps envisage such a scenario.
It would have to be a very early decision though, what with type of boots your buying determining your build.
More often I think of blink dagger tiny as go to build if you random him on a team with 4-5 carrys.
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Arcane+pub is best for pub mid tiny unless somehow you had an insanely good early game where you feel trolly (or you love watch the oppos struggling to come back) you can choose to go for the safelane carry tiny build aka drum+phase going for #1 carry build, but if you had that kind of advantage i think there is more reasons for you to make arcane+dagger to snowballing harder (or just go dagon5 at 15mins one shooting everyone and finish the game asap).
The whole point of pub tiny is to understand that you can hit people with 2xAva with the correct toss timing/positioning (to kill anyone <1k hp in 1 combo).
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EPT
