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On July 20 2013 03:52 TheYango wrote:
TBH from reading Fletcher's posts, most of the "fucked up" games that come in are for people that are stacking with wide MMR differences making the game suck for people it tries to fill into the middle. For every stack that has an enormous MMR gap between the players, you have to find a game for them--and you just end up having people get shafted by this when they're the middle player that gets filled into a pair of stacks. Even though the teams are balanced, games are just fundamentally shitty when you have games like that--but how do you solve that issue without prohibiting those players from playing with their friends?
Sounds like they've made it so that they balance around the lowest level ELO player on the team. Which seems right, because that's exactly how HoN and League do it as far as I know.
On July 20 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 03:37 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 03:25 maru~ wrote:On July 20 2013 03:17 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 TheYango wrote:"Try-hard" is pretty subjective. Honestly I don't see why you're distinguishing between a "non-tryhard" player who chooses not to buy wards and a "tryhard" player who is trying but is just bad so forgets to buy them/doesn't know where to play them. The only distinction I can see is that the "tryhard" player might be at an MMR reflected by how well he does when he tries hard, but then ruins games where he fucks around at the same MMR--but really if people want to find ways to make their MMR not representative of their actual skill, they will regardless. On July 20 2013 02:56 ch33psh33p wrote:
Stop taking the word tryhard so literally. All he meant is one queue where people play seriously, and one where people do whatever the fuck they want.
The problem is that in a lot of cases, the line between someone who isn't playing seriously and one who is playing seriously but just isn't that good is pretty blurry. There's always going to be issues with any matchmaking system, but there's more issues with putting everyone into one que. Valve keeps saying they want to keep new players from being abused, and yet they refuse to separate the more competitive/serious part of the community away from the new players. If you're playing in the more serious que, you're gonna just have to expect tempers to flare. That's how it has always been in IHLs, and anyone that has played DotA 1 has known that everything from RGC, Dotalicious, GArena, IHCS, DXD, etc. has always had tons of flaming for bad play. It's not an issue with the system itself, it's an issue with the community. However, now you have all of the same tryhard/serious players/pubstars all in the same que with players that are new/trying to improve, and all of a sudden you have tons of flaming, far more than before. Except that new players don't get matched with experienced/strong players. "Tryhard" is just a bullshit excuse. The only issue that arises from only having 1 player pool is that if you are a strong player but just want to goof around instead of playing seriously you can't really do that, but then you could play some casual inhouses or something. See Valve MM changelog. It still happens if you que with a player that is vastly below you in skill level too. On July 20 2013 03:32 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2013 03:25 maru~ wrote:On July 20 2013 03:17 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 TheYango wrote:"Try-hard" is pretty subjective. Honestly I don't see why you're distinguishing between a "non-tryhard" player who chooses not to buy wards and a "tryhard" player who is trying but is just bad so forgets to buy them/doesn't know where to play them. The only distinction I can see is that the "tryhard" player might be at an MMR reflected by how well he does when he tries hard, but then ruins games where he fucks around at the same MMR--but really if people want to find ways to make their MMR not representative of their actual skill, they will regardless. On July 20 2013 02:56 ch33psh33p wrote:
Stop taking the word tryhard so literally. All he meant is one queue where people play seriously, and one where people do whatever the fuck they want.
The problem is that in a lot of cases, the line between someone who isn't playing seriously and one who is playing seriously but just isn't that good is pretty blurry. There's always going to be issues with any matchmaking system, but there's more issues with putting everyone into one que. Valve keeps saying they want to keep new players from being abused, and yet they refuse to separate the more competitive/serious part of the community away from the new players. If you're playing in the more serious que, you're gonna just have to expect tempers to flare. That's how it has always been in IHLs, and anyone that has played DotA 1 has known that everything from RGC, Dotalicious, GArena, IHCS, DXD, etc. has always had tons of flaming for bad play. It's not an issue with the system itself, it's an issue with the community. However, now you have all of the same tryhard/serious players/pubstars all in the same que with players that are new/trying to improve, and all of a sudden you have tons of flaming, far more than before. Except that new players don't get matched with experienced/strong players. "Tryhard" is just a bullshit excuse. The only issue that arises from only having 1 player pool is that if you are a strong player but just want to goof around instead of playing seriously you can't really do that, but then you could play some casual inhouses or something. The classic reasoning why a good player is matched with a new player is that it was done to "balance" the teams. That the strong player was SO good that the client couldn't find people to match them with, so it put them with some pubstar players and put one other strong player on the other team. I have always been very suspect of this claim and think it might be the Dunning and Kruger effect in full force, but that is just me. Smurf detection is pretty sensitive in DotA 2, so it's pretty easy that a newer player could just be naturally good at DotA 2 and spike their ELO up absurdly high. Maybe he read a few guides, watched tutorials, practiced vs bots, etc. and has a natural up on newer players. Not to mention that parties with big gaps in ELO/MMR will tend to have wacky teammates of wildly different MMRS. But having a ranked ladder will not fix that problem. The system will still be prone to errors in ELO/MMR caused by people getting a bunch of wins on a new account and then going "I'm ready for ranked" and getting stomped/fucking up the game. The simple fact of the matter is that you are connecting to 5 random people from god knowns where. There is no system valve can build that is going to make sure that those players are all going to be as serious about playing dota as you want them to be.
You keep arguing that no one is going to be serious in a 'ranked' environment if the ranked environment is visible. That's a load of nonsense. If it's visible, you're gonna try as hard as you can just because you don't want to embarrass yourself and have a stain on your record. Not to mention ranked and non ranked ELO/MMR should be completely separated.
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How many tutorials do you have to play before you can proceed to normal games?
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On July 20 2013 04:05 Animzor wrote:
How many tutorials do you have to play before you can proceed to normal games?
The first two, after you watch the video you can play normal games
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On July 20 2013 04:05 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 03:52 TheYango wrote:
TBH from reading Fletcher's posts, most of the "fucked up" games that come in are for people that are stacking with wide MMR differences making the game suck for people it tries to fill into the middle. For every stack that has an enormous MMR gap between the players, you have to find a game for them--and you just end up having people get shafted by this when they're the middle player that gets filled into a pair of stacks. Even though the teams are balanced, games are just fundamentally shitty when you have games like that--but how do you solve that issue without prohibiting those players from playing with their friends? One thing that's worth noting is that sometimes its hard to tell how different your MMR is between friends.
That's why at minimum valve should give you a private mmr/ranking so you can track your progress. I don't like that it's nearly impossible to tell where you stand.
The current method is BAD.
search games:
cool all of my games are 'very high'.
What's very high? Who knows!
Option two:
Get into a game.
Slowly scroll through the top 10 pages after you get into a game and see if you're listed.
What a system.
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On July 20 2013 04:05 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 03:52 TheYango wrote:
TBH from reading Fletcher's posts, most of the "fucked up" games that come in are for people that are stacking with wide MMR differences making the game suck for people it tries to fill into the middle. For every stack that has an enormous MMR gap between the players, you have to find a game for them--and you just end up having people get shafted by this when they're the middle player that gets filled into a pair of stacks. Even though the teams are balanced, games are just fundamentally shitty when you have games like that--but how do you solve that issue without prohibiting those players from playing with their friends? Sounds like they've made it so that they balance around the lowest level ELO player on the team. Which seems right, because that's exactly how HoN and League do it as far as I know. Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2013 03:37 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 03:25 maru~ wrote:On July 20 2013 03:17 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 TheYango wrote:"Try-hard" is pretty subjective. Honestly I don't see why you're distinguishing between a "non-tryhard" player who chooses not to buy wards and a "tryhard" player who is trying but is just bad so forgets to buy them/doesn't know where to play them. The only distinction I can see is that the "tryhard" player might be at an MMR reflected by how well he does when he tries hard, but then ruins games where he fucks around at the same MMR--but really if people want to find ways to make their MMR not representative of their actual skill, they will regardless. On July 20 2013 02:56 ch33psh33p wrote:
Stop taking the word tryhard so literally. All he meant is one queue where people play seriously, and one where people do whatever the fuck they want.
The problem is that in a lot of cases, the line between someone who isn't playing seriously and one who is playing seriously but just isn't that good is pretty blurry. There's always going to be issues with any matchmaking system, but there's more issues with putting everyone into one que. Valve keeps saying they want to keep new players from being abused, and yet they refuse to separate the more competitive/serious part of the community away from the new players. If you're playing in the more serious que, you're gonna just have to expect tempers to flare. That's how it has always been in IHLs, and anyone that has played DotA 1 has known that everything from RGC, Dotalicious, GArena, IHCS, DXD, etc. has always had tons of flaming for bad play. It's not an issue with the system itself, it's an issue with the community. However, now you have all of the same tryhard/serious players/pubstars all in the same que with players that are new/trying to improve, and all of a sudden you have tons of flaming, far more than before. Except that new players don't get matched with experienced/strong players. "Tryhard" is just a bullshit excuse. The only issue that arises from only having 1 player pool is that if you are a strong player but just want to goof around instead of playing seriously you can't really do that, but then you could play some casual inhouses or something. See Valve MM changelog. It still happens if you que with a player that is vastly below you in skill level too. On July 20 2013 03:32 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2013 03:25 maru~ wrote:On July 20 2013 03:17 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 TheYango wrote:"Try-hard" is pretty subjective. Honestly I don't see why you're distinguishing between a "non-tryhard" player who chooses not to buy wards and a "tryhard" player who is trying but is just bad so forgets to buy them/doesn't know where to play them. The only distinction I can see is that the "tryhard" player might be at an MMR reflected by how well he does when he tries hard, but then ruins games where he fucks around at the same MMR--but really if people want to find ways to make their MMR not representative of their actual skill, they will regardless. On July 20 2013 02:56 ch33psh33p wrote:
Stop taking the word tryhard so literally. All he meant is one queue where people play seriously, and one where people do whatever the fuck they want.
The problem is that in a lot of cases, the line between someone who isn't playing seriously and one who is playing seriously but just isn't that good is pretty blurry. There's always going to be issues with any matchmaking system, but there's more issues with putting everyone into one que. Valve keeps saying they want to keep new players from being abused, and yet they refuse to separate the more competitive/serious part of the community away from the new players. If you're playing in the more serious que, you're gonna just have to expect tempers to flare. That's how it has always been in IHLs, and anyone that has played DotA 1 has known that everything from RGC, Dotalicious, GArena, IHCS, DXD, etc. has always had tons of flaming for bad play. It's not an issue with the system itself, it's an issue with the community. However, now you have all of the same tryhard/serious players/pubstars all in the same que with players that are new/trying to improve, and all of a sudden you have tons of flaming, far more than before. Except that new players don't get matched with experienced/strong players. "Tryhard" is just a bullshit excuse. The only issue that arises from only having 1 player pool is that if you are a strong player but just want to goof around instead of playing seriously you can't really do that, but then you could play some casual inhouses or something. The classic reasoning why a good player is matched with a new player is that it was done to "balance" the teams. That the strong player was SO good that the client couldn't find people to match them with, so it put them with some pubstar players and put one other strong player on the other team. I have always been very suspect of this claim and think it might be the Dunning and Kruger effect in full force, but that is just me. Smurf detection is pretty sensitive in DotA 2, so it's pretty easy that a newer player could just be naturally good at DotA 2 and spike their ELO up absurdly high. Maybe he read a few guides, watched tutorials, practiced vs bots, etc. and has a natural up on newer players. Not to mention that parties with big gaps in ELO/MMR will tend to have wacky teammates of wildly different MMRS. But having a ranked ladder will not fix that problem. The system will still be prone to errors in ELO/MMR caused by people getting a bunch of wins on a new account and then going "I'm ready for ranked" and getting stomped/fucking up the game. The simple fact of the matter is that you are connecting to 5 random people from god knowns where. There is no system valve can build that is going to make sure that those players are all going to be as serious about playing dota as you want them to be. You keep arguing that no one is going to be serious in a 'ranked' environment if the ranked environment is visible. That's a load of nonsense. If it's visible, you're gonna try as hard as you can just because you don't want to embarrass yourself and have a stain on your record. Not to mention ranked and non ranked ELO/MMR should be completely separated.
I didn't say that. I said that it won't fix the match maknig problem you cited because there will be people in ranked who take the game less seriously than you. It won't remove that player that you rage at because he is playing wrong or incorrectly, because nothing can remove that player from the pool of people you play with.
Look, you think a rank ladder would make your experience with Dota 2 better. I think it would make mine worse. We disagree. The world will keep spinning.
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On July 20 2013 04:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 04:05 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 03:52 TheYango wrote:
TBH from reading Fletcher's posts, most of the "fucked up" games that come in are for people that are stacking with wide MMR differences making the game suck for people it tries to fill into the middle. For every stack that has an enormous MMR gap between the players, you have to find a game for them--and you just end up having people get shafted by this when they're the middle player that gets filled into a pair of stacks. Even though the teams are balanced, games are just fundamentally shitty when you have games like that--but how do you solve that issue without prohibiting those players from playing with their friends? Sounds like they've made it so that they balance around the lowest level ELO player on the team. Which seems right, because that's exactly how HoN and League do it as far as I know. On July 20 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2013 03:37 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 03:25 maru~ wrote:On July 20 2013 03:17 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 TheYango wrote:"Try-hard" is pretty subjective. Honestly I don't see why you're distinguishing between a "non-tryhard" player who chooses not to buy wards and a "tryhard" player who is trying but is just bad so forgets to buy them/doesn't know where to play them. The only distinction I can see is that the "tryhard" player might be at an MMR reflected by how well he does when he tries hard, but then ruins games where he fucks around at the same MMR--but really if people want to find ways to make their MMR not representative of their actual skill, they will regardless. On July 20 2013 02:56 ch33psh33p wrote:
Stop taking the word tryhard so literally. All he meant is one queue where people play seriously, and one where people do whatever the fuck they want.
The problem is that in a lot of cases, the line between someone who isn't playing seriously and one who is playing seriously but just isn't that good is pretty blurry. There's always going to be issues with any matchmaking system, but there's more issues with putting everyone into one que. Valve keeps saying they want to keep new players from being abused, and yet they refuse to separate the more competitive/serious part of the community away from the new players. If you're playing in the more serious que, you're gonna just have to expect tempers to flare. That's how it has always been in IHLs, and anyone that has played DotA 1 has known that everything from RGC, Dotalicious, GArena, IHCS, DXD, etc. has always had tons of flaming for bad play. It's not an issue with the system itself, it's an issue with the community. However, now you have all of the same tryhard/serious players/pubstars all in the same que with players that are new/trying to improve, and all of a sudden you have tons of flaming, far more than before. Except that new players don't get matched with experienced/strong players. "Tryhard" is just a bullshit excuse. The only issue that arises from only having 1 player pool is that if you are a strong player but just want to goof around instead of playing seriously you can't really do that, but then you could play some casual inhouses or something. See Valve MM changelog. It still happens if you que with a player that is vastly below you in skill level too. On July 20 2013 03:32 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2013 03:25 maru~ wrote:On July 20 2013 03:17 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 TheYango wrote:"Try-hard" is pretty subjective. Honestly I don't see why you're distinguishing between a "non-tryhard" player who chooses not to buy wards and a "tryhard" player who is trying but is just bad so forgets to buy them/doesn't know where to play them. The only distinction I can see is that the "tryhard" player might be at an MMR reflected by how well he does when he tries hard, but then ruins games where he fucks around at the same MMR--but really if people want to find ways to make their MMR not representative of their actual skill, they will regardless. On July 20 2013 02:56 ch33psh33p wrote:
Stop taking the word tryhard so literally. All he meant is one queue where people play seriously, and one where people do whatever the fuck they want.
The problem is that in a lot of cases, the line between someone who isn't playing seriously and one who is playing seriously but just isn't that good is pretty blurry. There's always going to be issues with any matchmaking system, but there's more issues with putting everyone into one que. Valve keeps saying they want to keep new players from being abused, and yet they refuse to separate the more competitive/serious part of the community away from the new players. If you're playing in the more serious que, you're gonna just have to expect tempers to flare. That's how it has always been in IHLs, and anyone that has played DotA 1 has known that everything from RGC, Dotalicious, GArena, IHCS, DXD, etc. has always had tons of flaming for bad play. It's not an issue with the system itself, it's an issue with the community. However, now you have all of the same tryhard/serious players/pubstars all in the same que with players that are new/trying to improve, and all of a sudden you have tons of flaming, far more than before. Except that new players don't get matched with experienced/strong players. "Tryhard" is just a bullshit excuse. The only issue that arises from only having 1 player pool is that if you are a strong player but just want to goof around instead of playing seriously you can't really do that, but then you could play some casual inhouses or something. The classic reasoning why a good player is matched with a new player is that it was done to "balance" the teams. That the strong player was SO good that the client couldn't find people to match them with, so it put them with some pubstar players and put one other strong player on the other team. I have always been very suspect of this claim and think it might be the Dunning and Kruger effect in full force, but that is just me. Smurf detection is pretty sensitive in DotA 2, so it's pretty easy that a newer player could just be naturally good at DotA 2 and spike their ELO up absurdly high. Maybe he read a few guides, watched tutorials, practiced vs bots, etc. and has a natural up on newer players. Not to mention that parties with big gaps in ELO/MMR will tend to have wacky teammates of wildly different MMRS. But having a ranked ladder will not fix that problem. The system will still be prone to errors in ELO/MMR caused by people getting a bunch of wins on a new account and then going "I'm ready for ranked" and getting stomped/fucking up the game. The simple fact of the matter is that you are connecting to 5 random people from god knowns where. There is no system valve can build that is going to make sure that those players are all going to be as serious about playing dota as you want them to be. You keep arguing that no one is going to be serious in a 'ranked' environment if the ranked environment is visible. That's a load of nonsense. If it's visible, you're gonna try as hard as you can just because you don't want to embarrass yourself and have a stain on your record. Not to mention ranked and non ranked ELO/MMR should be completely separated. I didn't say that. I said that it won't fix the match maknig problem you cited because there will be people in ranked who take the game less seriously than you. It won't remove that player that you rage at because he is playing wrong or incorrectly, because nothing can remove that player from the pool of people you play with. Look, you think a rank ladder would make your experience with Dota 2 better. I think it would make mine worse. We disagree. The world will keep spinning.
Why would a non-serious player play ranked? That makes no sense at all.
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United States47024 Posts
I think he's raising the issue that there's drastically different perceptions about how serious someone thinks "serious" is.
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On July 20 2013 04:16 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 04:14 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2013 04:05 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 03:52 TheYango wrote:
TBH from reading Fletcher's posts, most of the "fucked up" games that come in are for people that are stacking with wide MMR differences making the game suck for people it tries to fill into the middle. For every stack that has an enormous MMR gap between the players, you have to find a game for them--and you just end up having people get shafted by this when they're the middle player that gets filled into a pair of stacks. Even though the teams are balanced, games are just fundamentally shitty when you have games like that--but how do you solve that issue without prohibiting those players from playing with their friends? Sounds like they've made it so that they balance around the lowest level ELO player on the team. Which seems right, because that's exactly how HoN and League do it as far as I know. On July 20 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2013 03:37 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 03:25 maru~ wrote:On July 20 2013 03:17 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 TheYango wrote:"Try-hard" is pretty subjective. Honestly I don't see why you're distinguishing between a "non-tryhard" player who chooses not to buy wards and a "tryhard" player who is trying but is just bad so forgets to buy them/doesn't know where to play them. The only distinction I can see is that the "tryhard" player might be at an MMR reflected by how well he does when he tries hard, but then ruins games where he fucks around at the same MMR--but really if people want to find ways to make their MMR not representative of their actual skill, they will regardless. On July 20 2013 02:56 ch33psh33p wrote:
Stop taking the word tryhard so literally. All he meant is one queue where people play seriously, and one where people do whatever the fuck they want.
The problem is that in a lot of cases, the line between someone who isn't playing seriously and one who is playing seriously but just isn't that good is pretty blurry. There's always going to be issues with any matchmaking system, but there's more issues with putting everyone into one que. Valve keeps saying they want to keep new players from being abused, and yet they refuse to separate the more competitive/serious part of the community away from the new players. If you're playing in the more serious que, you're gonna just have to expect tempers to flare. That's how it has always been in IHLs, and anyone that has played DotA 1 has known that everything from RGC, Dotalicious, GArena, IHCS, DXD, etc. has always had tons of flaming for bad play. It's not an issue with the system itself, it's an issue with the community. However, now you have all of the same tryhard/serious players/pubstars all in the same que with players that are new/trying to improve, and all of a sudden you have tons of flaming, far more than before. Except that new players don't get matched with experienced/strong players. "Tryhard" is just a bullshit excuse. The only issue that arises from only having 1 player pool is that if you are a strong player but just want to goof around instead of playing seriously you can't really do that, but then you could play some casual inhouses or something. See Valve MM changelog. It still happens if you que with a player that is vastly below you in skill level too. On July 20 2013 03:32 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2013 03:25 maru~ wrote:On July 20 2013 03:17 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 TheYango wrote:"Try-hard" is pretty subjective. Honestly I don't see why you're distinguishing between a "non-tryhard" player who chooses not to buy wards and a "tryhard" player who is trying but is just bad so forgets to buy them/doesn't know where to play them. The only distinction I can see is that the "tryhard" player might be at an MMR reflected by how well he does when he tries hard, but then ruins games where he fucks around at the same MMR--but really if people want to find ways to make their MMR not representative of their actual skill, they will regardless. On July 20 2013 02:56 ch33psh33p wrote:
Stop taking the word tryhard so literally. All he meant is one queue where people play seriously, and one where people do whatever the fuck they want.
The problem is that in a lot of cases, the line between someone who isn't playing seriously and one who is playing seriously but just isn't that good is pretty blurry. There's always going to be issues with any matchmaking system, but there's more issues with putting everyone into one que. Valve keeps saying they want to keep new players from being abused, and yet they refuse to separate the more competitive/serious part of the community away from the new players. If you're playing in the more serious que, you're gonna just have to expect tempers to flare. That's how it has always been in IHLs, and anyone that has played DotA 1 has known that everything from RGC, Dotalicious, GArena, IHCS, DXD, etc. has always had tons of flaming for bad play. It's not an issue with the system itself, it's an issue with the community. However, now you have all of the same tryhard/serious players/pubstars all in the same que with players that are new/trying to improve, and all of a sudden you have tons of flaming, far more than before. Except that new players don't get matched with experienced/strong players. "Tryhard" is just a bullshit excuse. The only issue that arises from only having 1 player pool is that if you are a strong player but just want to goof around instead of playing seriously you can't really do that, but then you could play some casual inhouses or something. The classic reasoning why a good player is matched with a new player is that it was done to "balance" the teams. That the strong player was SO good that the client couldn't find people to match them with, so it put them with some pubstar players and put one other strong player on the other team. I have always been very suspect of this claim and think it might be the Dunning and Kruger effect in full force, but that is just me. Smurf detection is pretty sensitive in DotA 2, so it's pretty easy that a newer player could just be naturally good at DotA 2 and spike their ELO up absurdly high. Maybe he read a few guides, watched tutorials, practiced vs bots, etc. and has a natural up on newer players. Not to mention that parties with big gaps in ELO/MMR will tend to have wacky teammates of wildly different MMRS. But having a ranked ladder will not fix that problem. The system will still be prone to errors in ELO/MMR caused by people getting a bunch of wins on a new account and then going "I'm ready for ranked" and getting stomped/fucking up the game. The simple fact of the matter is that you are connecting to 5 random people from god knowns where. There is no system valve can build that is going to make sure that those players are all going to be as serious about playing dota as you want them to be. You keep arguing that no one is going to be serious in a 'ranked' environment if the ranked environment is visible. That's a load of nonsense. If it's visible, you're gonna try as hard as you can just because you don't want to embarrass yourself and have a stain on your record. Not to mention ranked and non ranked ELO/MMR should be completely separated. I didn't say that. I said that it won't fix the match maknig problem you cited because there will be people in ranked who take the game less seriously than you. It won't remove that player that you rage at because he is playing wrong or incorrectly, because nothing can remove that player from the pool of people you play with. Look, you think a rank ladder would make your experience with Dota 2 better. I think it would make mine worse. We disagree. The world will keep spinning. Why would a non-serious player play ranked? That makes no sense at all.
Because he doesn't want to get flamed on teh forumz for playing trash games, unranked is only for scrubs and he surely isn;t one
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On July 20 2013 04:16 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 04:14 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2013 04:05 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 03:52 TheYango wrote:
TBH from reading Fletcher's posts, most of the "fucked up" games that come in are for people that are stacking with wide MMR differences making the game suck for people it tries to fill into the middle. For every stack that has an enormous MMR gap between the players, you have to find a game for them--and you just end up having people get shafted by this when they're the middle player that gets filled into a pair of stacks. Even though the teams are balanced, games are just fundamentally shitty when you have games like that--but how do you solve that issue without prohibiting those players from playing with their friends? Sounds like they've made it so that they balance around the lowest level ELO player on the team. Which seems right, because that's exactly how HoN and League do it as far as I know. On July 20 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2013 03:37 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 03:25 maru~ wrote:On July 20 2013 03:17 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 TheYango wrote:"Try-hard" is pretty subjective. Honestly I don't see why you're distinguishing between a "non-tryhard" player who chooses not to buy wards and a "tryhard" player who is trying but is just bad so forgets to buy them/doesn't know where to play them. The only distinction I can see is that the "tryhard" player might be at an MMR reflected by how well he does when he tries hard, but then ruins games where he fucks around at the same MMR--but really if people want to find ways to make their MMR not representative of their actual skill, they will regardless. On July 20 2013 02:56 ch33psh33p wrote:
Stop taking the word tryhard so literally. All he meant is one queue where people play seriously, and one where people do whatever the fuck they want.
The problem is that in a lot of cases, the line between someone who isn't playing seriously and one who is playing seriously but just isn't that good is pretty blurry. There's always going to be issues with any matchmaking system, but there's more issues with putting everyone into one que. Valve keeps saying they want to keep new players from being abused, and yet they refuse to separate the more competitive/serious part of the community away from the new players. If you're playing in the more serious que, you're gonna just have to expect tempers to flare. That's how it has always been in IHLs, and anyone that has played DotA 1 has known that everything from RGC, Dotalicious, GArena, IHCS, DXD, etc. has always had tons of flaming for bad play. It's not an issue with the system itself, it's an issue with the community. However, now you have all of the same tryhard/serious players/pubstars all in the same que with players that are new/trying to improve, and all of a sudden you have tons of flaming, far more than before. Except that new players don't get matched with experienced/strong players. "Tryhard" is just a bullshit excuse. The only issue that arises from only having 1 player pool is that if you are a strong player but just want to goof around instead of playing seriously you can't really do that, but then you could play some casual inhouses or something. See Valve MM changelog. It still happens if you que with a player that is vastly below you in skill level too. On July 20 2013 03:32 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2013 03:25 maru~ wrote:On July 20 2013 03:17 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 TheYango wrote:"Try-hard" is pretty subjective. Honestly I don't see why you're distinguishing between a "non-tryhard" player who chooses not to buy wards and a "tryhard" player who is trying but is just bad so forgets to buy them/doesn't know where to play them. The only distinction I can see is that the "tryhard" player might be at an MMR reflected by how well he does when he tries hard, but then ruins games where he fucks around at the same MMR--but really if people want to find ways to make their MMR not representative of their actual skill, they will regardless. On July 20 2013 02:56 ch33psh33p wrote:
Stop taking the word tryhard so literally. All he meant is one queue where people play seriously, and one where people do whatever the fuck they want.
The problem is that in a lot of cases, the line between someone who isn't playing seriously and one who is playing seriously but just isn't that good is pretty blurry. There's always going to be issues with any matchmaking system, but there's more issues with putting everyone into one que. Valve keeps saying they want to keep new players from being abused, and yet they refuse to separate the more competitive/serious part of the community away from the new players. If you're playing in the more serious que, you're gonna just have to expect tempers to flare. That's how it has always been in IHLs, and anyone that has played DotA 1 has known that everything from RGC, Dotalicious, GArena, IHCS, DXD, etc. has always had tons of flaming for bad play. It's not an issue with the system itself, it's an issue with the community. However, now you have all of the same tryhard/serious players/pubstars all in the same que with players that are new/trying to improve, and all of a sudden you have tons of flaming, far more than before. Except that new players don't get matched with experienced/strong players. "Tryhard" is just a bullshit excuse. The only issue that arises from only having 1 player pool is that if you are a strong player but just want to goof around instead of playing seriously you can't really do that, but then you could play some casual inhouses or something. The classic reasoning why a good player is matched with a new player is that it was done to "balance" the teams. That the strong player was SO good that the client couldn't find people to match them with, so it put them with some pubstar players and put one other strong player on the other team. I have always been very suspect of this claim and think it might be the Dunning and Kruger effect in full force, but that is just me. Smurf detection is pretty sensitive in DotA 2, so it's pretty easy that a newer player could just be naturally good at DotA 2 and spike their ELO up absurdly high. Maybe he read a few guides, watched tutorials, practiced vs bots, etc. and has a natural up on newer players. Not to mention that parties with big gaps in ELO/MMR will tend to have wacky teammates of wildly different MMRS. But having a ranked ladder will not fix that problem. The system will still be prone to errors in ELO/MMR caused by people getting a bunch of wins on a new account and then going "I'm ready for ranked" and getting stomped/fucking up the game. The simple fact of the matter is that you are connecting to 5 random people from god knowns where. There is no system valve can build that is going to make sure that those players are all going to be as serious about playing dota as you want them to be. You keep arguing that no one is going to be serious in a 'ranked' environment if the ranked environment is visible. That's a load of nonsense. If it's visible, you're gonna try as hard as you can just because you don't want to embarrass yourself and have a stain on your record. Not to mention ranked and non ranked ELO/MMR should be completely separated. I didn't say that. I said that it won't fix the match maknig problem you cited because there will be people in ranked who take the game less seriously than you. It won't remove that player that you rage at because he is playing wrong or incorrectly, because nothing can remove that player from the pool of people you play with. Look, you think a rank ladder would make your experience with Dota 2 better. I think it would make mine worse. We disagree. The world will keep spinning. Why would a non-serious player play ranked? That makes no sense at all.
I said "Not serious enough for you", saying that there will always be talented players who don't take the game as seriously as you want them too. That there will always be someone to blame the loss on, pubstar or tryhard.
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On July 20 2013 04:14 Plansix wrote:
Look, you think a rank ladder would make your experience with Dota 2 better. I think it would make mine worse. We disagree. The world will keep spinning.
i'm late to the 99,999th reiteration of this argument but I gotta ask, why not both? Shouldn't a complete game offer competitive and casual outlets built within the game itself and not force the player base to use outside, unfamiliar software such as iccup (or the droves of malicious software) to have a competitive outlet? League and HoN had ranked, unranked, easy modes, all middle, 3v3 etc. etc. The biggest problem with Valve's system is there is literally 1 giant player pool funneled into 1 giant match maker. If you offer different outlets the matchmaker instantly improves because it has better chance at matching appropriate demographics.
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On July 20 2013 04:18 TheYango wrote:
I think he's raising the issue that there's drastically different perceptions about how serious someone thinks "serious" is.
If you're playing a semi-competitive ranked/visible stats mode, you're gonna have to deal with rage. It's inherent in the way the game is built. The person that plays ranked in a non-serious fashion is going to probably end up on the lower end of the spectrum unless they are just really good at the game, in which case they could probably just win with whatever silly item build/skill build/hero they want to play. You'll still end up separating most of the community that wants to play a more serious game vs the ones who just want to play however they want, especially if you ended up making ranked CM mode.
The only thing you have to do is give an incentive to play normals, such as special events for items, or just make it so non-ranked is the only way to get items.
On July 20 2013 04:19 Qbek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 04:16 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 04:14 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2013 04:05 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 03:52 TheYango wrote:
TBH from reading Fletcher's posts, most of the "fucked up" games that come in are for people that are stacking with wide MMR differences making the game suck for people it tries to fill into the middle. For every stack that has an enormous MMR gap between the players, you have to find a game for them--and you just end up having people get shafted by this when they're the middle player that gets filled into a pair of stacks. Even though the teams are balanced, games are just fundamentally shitty when you have games like that--but how do you solve that issue without prohibiting those players from playing with their friends? Sounds like they've made it so that they balance around the lowest level ELO player on the team. Which seems right, because that's exactly how HoN and League do it as far as I know. On July 20 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2013 03:37 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 03:25 maru~ wrote:On July 20 2013 03:17 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 TheYango wrote:"Try-hard" is pretty subjective. Honestly I don't see why you're distinguishing between a "non-tryhard" player who chooses not to buy wards and a "tryhard" player who is trying but is just bad so forgets to buy them/doesn't know where to play them. The only distinction I can see is that the "tryhard" player might be at an MMR reflected by how well he does when he tries hard, but then ruins games where he fucks around at the same MMR--but really if people want to find ways to make their MMR not representative of their actual skill, they will regardless. On July 20 2013 02:56 ch33psh33p wrote:
Stop taking the word tryhard so literally. All he meant is one queue where people play seriously, and one where people do whatever the fuck they want.
The problem is that in a lot of cases, the line between someone who isn't playing seriously and one who is playing seriously but just isn't that good is pretty blurry. There's always going to be issues with any matchmaking system, but there's more issues with putting everyone into one que. Valve keeps saying they want to keep new players from being abused, and yet they refuse to separate the more competitive/serious part of the community away from the new players. If you're playing in the more serious que, you're gonna just have to expect tempers to flare. That's how it has always been in IHLs, and anyone that has played DotA 1 has known that everything from RGC, Dotalicious, GArena, IHCS, DXD, etc. has always had tons of flaming for bad play. It's not an issue with the system itself, it's an issue with the community. However, now you have all of the same tryhard/serious players/pubstars all in the same que with players that are new/trying to improve, and all of a sudden you have tons of flaming, far more than before. Except that new players don't get matched with experienced/strong players. "Tryhard" is just a bullshit excuse. The only issue that arises from only having 1 player pool is that if you are a strong player but just want to goof around instead of playing seriously you can't really do that, but then you could play some casual inhouses or something. See Valve MM changelog. It still happens if you que with a player that is vastly below you in skill level too. On July 20 2013 03:32 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2013 03:25 maru~ wrote:On July 20 2013 03:17 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 TheYango wrote:
"Try-hard" is pretty subjective. Honestly I don't see why you're distinguishing between a "non-tryhard" player who chooses not to buy wards and a "tryhard" player who is trying but is just bad so forgets to buy them/doesn't know where to play them. The only distinction I can see is that the "tryhard" player might be at an MMR reflected by how well he does when he tries hard, but then ruins games where he fucks around at the same MMR--but really if people want to find ways to make their MMR not representative of their actual skill, they will regardless.
[quote]
The problem is that in a lot of cases, the line between someone who isn't playing seriously and one who is playing seriously but just isn't that good is pretty blurry. There's always going to be issues with any matchmaking system, but there's more issues with putting everyone into one que. Valve keeps saying they want to keep new players from being abused, and yet they refuse to separate the more competitive/serious part of the community away from the new players. If you're playing in the more serious que, you're gonna just have to expect tempers to flare. That's how it has always been in IHLs, and anyone that has played DotA 1 has known that everything from RGC, Dotalicious, GArena, IHCS, DXD, etc. has always had tons of flaming for bad play. It's not an issue with the system itself, it's an issue with the community. However, now you have all of the same tryhard/serious players/pubstars all in the same que with players that are new/trying to improve, and all of a sudden you have tons of flaming, far more than before. Except that new players don't get matched with experienced/strong players. "Tryhard" is just a bullshit excuse. The only issue that arises from only having 1 player pool is that if you are a strong player but just want to goof around instead of playing seriously you can't really do that, but then you could play some casual inhouses or something. The classic reasoning why a good player is matched with a new player is that it was done to "balance" the teams. That the strong player was SO good that the client couldn't find people to match them with, so it put them with some pubstar players and put one other strong player on the other team. I have always been very suspect of this claim and think it might be the Dunning and Kruger effect in full force, but that is just me. Smurf detection is pretty sensitive in DotA 2, so it's pretty easy that a newer player could just be naturally good at DotA 2 and spike their ELO up absurdly high. Maybe he read a few guides, watched tutorials, practiced vs bots, etc. and has a natural up on newer players. Not to mention that parties with big gaps in ELO/MMR will tend to have wacky teammates of wildly different MMRS. But having a ranked ladder will not fix that problem. The system will still be prone to errors in ELO/MMR caused by people getting a bunch of wins on a new account and then going "I'm ready for ranked" and getting stomped/fucking up the game. The simple fact of the matter is that you are connecting to 5 random people from god knowns where. There is no system valve can build that is going to make sure that those players are all going to be as serious about playing dota as you want them to be. You keep arguing that no one is going to be serious in a 'ranked' environment if the ranked environment is visible. That's a load of nonsense. If it's visible, you're gonna try as hard as you can just because you don't want to embarrass yourself and have a stain on your record. Not to mention ranked and non ranked ELO/MMR should be completely separated. I didn't say that. I said that it won't fix the match maknig problem you cited because there will be people in ranked who take the game less seriously than you. It won't remove that player that you rage at because he is playing wrong or incorrectly, because nothing can remove that player from the pool of people you play with. Look, you think a rank ladder would make your experience with Dota 2 better. I think it would make mine worse. We disagree. The world will keep spinning. Why would a non-serious player play ranked? That makes no sense at all. Because he doesn't want to get flamed on teh forumz for playing trash games, unranked is only for scrubs and he surely isn;t one
People who play normals in League don't even read the forums, and quite frankly don't really care about what most ranked players say.
On July 20 2013 04:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 04:16 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 04:14 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2013 04:05 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 03:52 TheYango wrote:
TBH from reading Fletcher's posts, most of the "fucked up" games that come in are for people that are stacking with wide MMR differences making the game suck for people it tries to fill into the middle. For every stack that has an enormous MMR gap between the players, you have to find a game for them--and you just end up having people get shafted by this when they're the middle player that gets filled into a pair of stacks. Even though the teams are balanced, games are just fundamentally shitty when you have games like that--but how do you solve that issue without prohibiting those players from playing with their friends? Sounds like they've made it so that they balance around the lowest level ELO player on the team. Which seems right, because that's exactly how HoN and League do it as far as I know. On July 20 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2013 03:37 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 03:25 maru~ wrote:On July 20 2013 03:17 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 TheYango wrote:"Try-hard" is pretty subjective. Honestly I don't see why you're distinguishing between a "non-tryhard" player who chooses not to buy wards and a "tryhard" player who is trying but is just bad so forgets to buy them/doesn't know where to play them. The only distinction I can see is that the "tryhard" player might be at an MMR reflected by how well he does when he tries hard, but then ruins games where he fucks around at the same MMR--but really if people want to find ways to make their MMR not representative of their actual skill, they will regardless. On July 20 2013 02:56 ch33psh33p wrote:
Stop taking the word tryhard so literally. All he meant is one queue where people play seriously, and one where people do whatever the fuck they want.
The problem is that in a lot of cases, the line between someone who isn't playing seriously and one who is playing seriously but just isn't that good is pretty blurry. There's always going to be issues with any matchmaking system, but there's more issues with putting everyone into one que. Valve keeps saying they want to keep new players from being abused, and yet they refuse to separate the more competitive/serious part of the community away from the new players. If you're playing in the more serious que, you're gonna just have to expect tempers to flare. That's how it has always been in IHLs, and anyone that has played DotA 1 has known that everything from RGC, Dotalicious, GArena, IHCS, DXD, etc. has always had tons of flaming for bad play. It's not an issue with the system itself, it's an issue with the community. However, now you have all of the same tryhard/serious players/pubstars all in the same que with players that are new/trying to improve, and all of a sudden you have tons of flaming, far more than before. Except that new players don't get matched with experienced/strong players. "Tryhard" is just a bullshit excuse. The only issue that arises from only having 1 player pool is that if you are a strong player but just want to goof around instead of playing seriously you can't really do that, but then you could play some casual inhouses or something. See Valve MM changelog. It still happens if you que with a player that is vastly below you in skill level too. On July 20 2013 03:32 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2013 03:25 maru~ wrote:On July 20 2013 03:17 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 TheYango wrote:
"Try-hard" is pretty subjective. Honestly I don't see why you're distinguishing between a "non-tryhard" player who chooses not to buy wards and a "tryhard" player who is trying but is just bad so forgets to buy them/doesn't know where to play them. The only distinction I can see is that the "tryhard" player might be at an MMR reflected by how well he does when he tries hard, but then ruins games where he fucks around at the same MMR--but really if people want to find ways to make their MMR not representative of their actual skill, they will regardless.
[quote]
The problem is that in a lot of cases, the line between someone who isn't playing seriously and one who is playing seriously but just isn't that good is pretty blurry. There's always going to be issues with any matchmaking system, but there's more issues with putting everyone into one que. Valve keeps saying they want to keep new players from being abused, and yet they refuse to separate the more competitive/serious part of the community away from the new players. If you're playing in the more serious que, you're gonna just have to expect tempers to flare. That's how it has always been in IHLs, and anyone that has played DotA 1 has known that everything from RGC, Dotalicious, GArena, IHCS, DXD, etc. has always had tons of flaming for bad play. It's not an issue with the system itself, it's an issue with the community. However, now you have all of the same tryhard/serious players/pubstars all in the same que with players that are new/trying to improve, and all of a sudden you have tons of flaming, far more than before. Except that new players don't get matched with experienced/strong players. "Tryhard" is just a bullshit excuse. The only issue that arises from only having 1 player pool is that if you are a strong player but just want to goof around instead of playing seriously you can't really do that, but then you could play some casual inhouses or something. The classic reasoning why a good player is matched with a new player is that it was done to "balance" the teams. That the strong player was SO good that the client couldn't find people to match them with, so it put them with some pubstar players and put one other strong player on the other team. I have always been very suspect of this claim and think it might be the Dunning and Kruger effect in full force, but that is just me. Smurf detection is pretty sensitive in DotA 2, so it's pretty easy that a newer player could just be naturally good at DotA 2 and spike their ELO up absurdly high. Maybe he read a few guides, watched tutorials, practiced vs bots, etc. and has a natural up on newer players. Not to mention that parties with big gaps in ELO/MMR will tend to have wacky teammates of wildly different MMRS. But having a ranked ladder will not fix that problem. The system will still be prone to errors in ELO/MMR caused by people getting a bunch of wins on a new account and then going "I'm ready for ranked" and getting stomped/fucking up the game. The simple fact of the matter is that you are connecting to 5 random people from god knowns where. There is no system valve can build that is going to make sure that those players are all going to be as serious about playing dota as you want them to be. You keep arguing that no one is going to be serious in a 'ranked' environment if the ranked environment is visible. That's a load of nonsense. If it's visible, you're gonna try as hard as you can just because you don't want to embarrass yourself and have a stain on your record. Not to mention ranked and non ranked ELO/MMR should be completely separated. I didn't say that. I said that it won't fix the match maknig problem you cited because there will be people in ranked who take the game less seriously than you. It won't remove that player that you rage at because he is playing wrong or incorrectly, because nothing can remove that player from the pool of people you play with. Look, you think a rank ladder would make your experience with Dota 2 better. I think it would make mine worse. We disagree. The world will keep spinning. Why would a non-serious player play ranked? That makes no sense at all. I said "Not serious enough for you", saying that there will always be talented players who don't take the game as seriously as you want them too. That there will always be someone to blame the loss on, pubstar or tryhard.
Then why would said talented player who is knowledgeable enough that there is an unranked que play ranked que. You're still not answering the question, just avoiding the argument.
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On July 20 2013 04:21 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 04:18 TheYango wrote:
I think he's raising the issue that there's drastically different perceptions about how serious someone thinks "serious" is. If you're playing a semi-competitive ranked/visible stats mode, you're gonna have to deal with rage. It's inherent in the way the game is built. The person that plays ranked in a non-serious fashion is going to probably end up on the lower end of the spectrum unless they are just really good at the game, in which case they could probably just win with whatever silly item build/skill build/hero they want to play. You'll still end up separating most of the community that wants to play a more serious game vs the ones who just want to play however they want, especially if you ended up making ranked CM mode.
Right, so you want a mode where you can rage and yell at people for fucking up and you want Valve to make a specific ladder for people who are willing to put up with your "serious" behaviour. Then you won't be reported or punished, becuase it is expected that someone is going to be that upset if someone fails at their role or makes a mistake.
As I said before, we disagree. I don't think a ranked ladder will improve Dota, only promote bad behaviour and ghettoize the other match making systems.
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On July 20 2013 04:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 04:21 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 04:18 TheYango wrote:
I think he's raising the issue that there's drastically different perceptions about how serious someone thinks "serious" is. If you're playing a semi-competitive ranked/visible stats mode, you're gonna have to deal with rage. It's inherent in the way the game is built. The person that plays ranked in a non-serious fashion is going to probably end up on the lower end of the spectrum unless they are just really good at the game, in which case they could probably just win with whatever silly item build/skill build/hero they want to play. You'll still end up separating most of the community that wants to play a more serious game vs the ones who just want to play however they want, especially if you ended up making ranked CM mode. Right, so you want a mode where you can rage and yell at people for fucking up and you want Valve to make a specific ladder for people who are willing to put up with your "serious" behaviour. Then you won't be reported or punished, becuase it is expected that someone is going to be that upset if someone fails at their role or makes a mistake.
Some people want a more serious ladder without having to deal with people who are going to lastpick random Meepo when you already have 4 picks down. All anyone with a more serious mindset is asking Valve to implement an OPTION for the more serious players. Right now you just have a shit fest most of the time, especially with the fact that the MM was broken for days on end for the past few weeks or so.
I like who you ad homenin me when you still haven't answered any of the arguments. Why would a talented player who just wants to mess around play ranked? Only reason why I can see this is if ranked has the shorter que times, but that's clearly not the case in a game like League of Legends (normals have a far higher population).
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So does anyone know when the eastern teams are going to start arriving in the US?
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On July 20 2013 04:27 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 04:24 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2013 04:21 superstartran wrote:On July 20 2013 04:18 TheYango wrote:
I think he's raising the issue that there's drastically different perceptions about how serious someone thinks "serious" is. If you're playing a semi-competitive ranked/visible stats mode, you're gonna have to deal with rage. It's inherent in the way the game is built. The person that plays ranked in a non-serious fashion is going to probably end up on the lower end of the spectrum unless they are just really good at the game, in which case they could probably just win with whatever silly item build/skill build/hero they want to play. You'll still end up separating most of the community that wants to play a more serious game vs the ones who just want to play however they want, especially if you ended up making ranked CM mode. Right, so you want a mode where you can rage and yell at people for fucking up and you want Valve to make a specific ladder for people who are willing to put up with your "serious" behaviour. Then you won't be reported or punished, becuase it is expected that someone is going to be that upset if someone fails at their role or makes a mistake. Some people want a more serious ladder without having to deal with people who are going to lastpick random Meepo when you already have 4 picks down. All anyone with a more serious mindset is asking Valve to implement an OPTION for the more serious players. Right now you just have a shit fest most of the time, especially with the fact that the MM was broken for days on end for the past few weeks or so. I like who you ad homenin me when you still haven't answered any of the arguments. Why would a talented player who just wants to mess around play ranked? Only reason why I can see this is if ranked has the shorter que times, but that's clearly not the case in a game like League of Legends (normals have a far higher population).
Look you feel the system would make a perfect world. It is my opinion that it wouldn't and there are flaws with doing so. We have had this discussion before and did not agree. I don't see a lot of point in engaging in it again. You clearly take Dota very seriously and I hope you can find players that do so as well.
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On July 20 2013 02:56 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 02:48 Xxazn4lyfe51xX wrote:On July 20 2013 02:17 superstartran wrote:
In other words. Make two ques. Ranked/Try Hard/Non Try hard. Problem solved. I'm sure you don't enjoy it when you get a pubstar that stomps you, nor do you enjoy it when a pubstar is on your team and is trying to tell you how you should play and what to do. This kind of thing is pointless. What happens when a guy in the "non try hard" queue buys wards? Ban him for being too try hard? A team gets KOTL PL, ban them for being too try hard? Some guy goes on a killing spree, ban him for being too try hard? Conversely, if a guy in the "try hard" queue ends up not buying wards at the start of the game, do you ban him for not trying hard enough? There's just no way to do this. What kind of counterarugment is this? Stop taking the word tryhard so literally. All he meant is one queue where people play seriously, and one where people do whatever the fuck they want. He didn't literally mean a non-effort allowed queue, just one where people don't compete for points or whatever. Fuck that word and your overreaction to it.
Your response is precisely the sentiment I was trying to highlight... How do you judge what is serious and what is not? How do you judge what "tryhard" means? If you think that "playing seriously" entails X Y and Z, but someone else thinks playing seriously simply means not intentionally feeding, how do you reconcile that between the two queues?
I'm quite aware that he didn't literally mean a "non-effort" queue. But where do you draw the line? I think people are being too idealistic if they think that all people who play "seriously" conform to the same standards as you do and that all people who just want to have fun in a non-serious environment don't want to do the best they can.
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The real reason I want visible rating is to laugh at people with lower rating than me.
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On July 20 2013 05:03 ChunderBoy wrote:
The real reason I want visible rating is to laugh at people with lower rating than me.
so you don't like laughing I take it?
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Ok, i have always been wondering this but is the puck phase shift in dota2 an intended change? I remember the shift is often last full duration instead of being able to cancel it mid way.(as well as being able to use items, cast spells before breaking out)
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EPT
