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On July 12 2013 08:36 GentleDrill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 08:14 Mataza wrote:
You're actually correct that Hellfirebolt max first is better for fighting. My only gripe is that it still isn't very good.
Comparing his basic skills across the board, critical strike is the only one that's actually quite good.
His stun is outshone in damage and availability(mana) by many heroes. Only strong point is slightly faster cooldown.
His vampiric aura was inferior to Naix's old lifesteal aura and comparable skills.
His crit is 3rd best in the game, after Juggernaut's Blade Dance and Mortred's Coup de Grace.
If you want to play Skeleking to his strengths you will have a hard time, since he doesn't really have any.
Just about the only thing he has going for him right now is that he can be jungled from lvl 1.
Sven got a makeover and became awesome. Skeleking got a makeover at the same time and stayed just as bad.
/rant How can you talk about SK's remake and not even mention the thing that was remade? And what are these other stuns that outshine his? Sven's trades out the 2 seconds of slow for 25 damage, aoe, 75 range (all good) but double the cooldown, and their mana is comparable. CK's averages out to about the same damage and less stun at level 1, but quite alot less damage and more stun at max level (taking mean values), and has slightly less range, but a faster projectile, so on average it's probably slightly better but no more. And their mana is comparable. You can start comparing it to stuns on supports that might have big draws, but they all also have drawbacks. Lesh and Lina's are delayed. Lion and Nyx's are worse disables at level 1. And it's not really fair to compare to the stuns on supports because that's a different class of hero. I'm not claiming that Hellfire Blast is the best stun/nuke in the game but it's at worse slightly worse than any others that exist. I'm not sure how you reason that a theoretical four 2-second-stuns-plus-2-second-slows from one hero in a teamfight isn't good (it's probably unrealistic but if any hero ever did that much in any one teamfight it'd be ridiculous). And what's the point comparing to skills that don't exist anymore?
If you want to make this serious, then you should take into account his full skillset in unison.
Skele has a stun he can barely support mana wise, a crit and a lifesteal aura. His ultimate is that he is reborn if he has the mana and doesn't have it on cd.
On top of that he has 300 ms which is at best average and crappy agi gain.
Crit and lifesteal work together to make him a durable rightclicker. His ultimate helps reinforce that too.
What this skillset wants is to manfight. Lock horns and right click each other as hard as you can. Win against your enemy because of your lifesteal.
The 2 flaws is that people can just walk away from him and that burst damage exists and excels(and he lacks it). People that can coordinate their spells can explode heroes in a few seconds and doing that is much better than killing people with right clicking.
His stun is the odd man out here.
A: It is not enough to stop people from running away.
B: Its damage is average. It is not a good contribution to bursting someone down.
20% slow for 2 seconds isn't the redeeming quality it needs. Slowing someone 20% for 2 seconds is just slightly better than hitting him with an orb of venom, which gives 12% slow for 4 seconds. Out of experience, anything below 35% slow barely qualifies as debuff.
That SK is slowish and his stun has a short cast range just adds insult to injury.
Also if I may quote myself
On July 12 2013 08:14 Mataza wrote:
You're actually correct that Hellfirebolt max first is better for fighting. My only gripe is that it still isn't very good.
[...]
Just about the only thing he has going for him right now is that he can be jungled from lvl 1.
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On July 12 2013 08:32 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 08:12 TheYango wrote:On July 12 2013 07:19 Mataza wrote:
Total damage: 80 / 160 / 230 / 300
source: playdota
Crit increases your neutral farm speed if nothing else. In a drawn out fight you will probably not be stunned the whole time. Leoric isn't the type of hero of hero that wants short bursty fights in my opinion.
If you focus on hellfirebolt, then in the end you will get a weak version of Sven.
Even getting a soul ring, and items that increase mana pool and without his ultimate he will get maybe 4 stuns out around lvl 11.
That's just not that good. I wanted to type a response to this post, but everything that came to mind would have been banworthy. Yango bot is unstable, can we get r1ch in here to reboot? I'm scared.
Should we start running for the hills before the ban spree comes?
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the free-to-play fantasy combat strategy game
this is how USA TODAY called LoL, i thought its interesting to share 
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Hi folks !
I've grown quite fond of Dota recently. Watched a bunch and just played against bots etc, but the bots have grown boring. So my question is: Are most people as angry as I hear they are? Cheers
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Eh, some games people are jerks, some games they're cool, most games they're alright. I just grow a thick skin and ignore the jerks.
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On July 12 2013 09:34 Mataza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 08:36 GentleDrill wrote:On July 12 2013 08:14 Mataza wrote:
You're actually correct that Hellfirebolt max first is better for fighting. My only gripe is that it still isn't very good.
Comparing his basic skills across the board, critical strike is the only one that's actually quite good.
His stun is outshone in damage and availability(mana) by many heroes. Only strong point is slightly faster cooldown.
His vampiric aura was inferior to Naix's old lifesteal aura and comparable skills.
His crit is 3rd best in the game, after Juggernaut's Blade Dance and Mortred's Coup de Grace.
If you want to play Skeleking to his strengths you will have a hard time, since he doesn't really have any.
Just about the only thing he has going for him right now is that he can be jungled from lvl 1.
Sven got a makeover and became awesome. Skeleking got a makeover at the same time and stayed just as bad.
/rant How can you talk about SK's remake and not even mention the thing that was remade? And what are these other stuns that outshine his? Sven's trades out the 2 seconds of slow for 25 damage, aoe, 75 range (all good) but double the cooldown, and their mana is comparable. CK's averages out to about the same damage and less stun at level 1, but quite alot less damage and more stun at max level (taking mean values), and has slightly less range, but a faster projectile, so on average it's probably slightly better but no more. And their mana is comparable. You can start comparing it to stuns on supports that might have big draws, but they all also have drawbacks. Lesh and Lina's are delayed. Lion and Nyx's are worse disables at level 1. And it's not really fair to compare to the stuns on supports because that's a different class of hero. I'm not claiming that Hellfire Blast is the best stun/nuke in the game but it's at worse slightly worse than any others that exist. I'm not sure how you reason that a theoretical four 2-second-stuns-plus-2-second-slows from one hero in a teamfight isn't good (it's probably unrealistic but if any hero ever did that much in any one teamfight it'd be ridiculous). And what's the point comparing to skills that don't exist anymore? If you want to make this serious, then you should take into account his full skillset in unison. Skele has a stun he can barely support mana wise, a crit and a lifesteal aura. His ultimate is that he is reborn if he has the mana and doesn't have it on cd. On top of that he has 300 ms which is at best average and crappy agi gain. Crit and lifesteal work together to make him a durable rightclicker. His ultimate helps reinforce that too. What this skillset wants is to manfight. Lock horns and right click each other as hard as you can. Win against your enemy because of your lifesteal. The 2 flaws is that people can just walk away from him and that burst damage exists and excels(and he lacks it). People that can coordinate their spells can explode heroes in a few seconds and doing that is much better than killing people with right clicking. His stun is the odd man out here. A: It is not enough to stop people from running away. B: Its damage is average. It is not a good contribution to bursting someone down. 20% slow for 2 seconds isn't the redeeming quality it needs. Slowing someone 20% for 2 seconds is just slightly better than hitting him with an orb of venom, which gives 12% slow for 4 seconds. Out of experience, anything below 35% slow barely qualifies as debuff. That SK is slowish and his stun has a short cast range just adds insult to injury. Also if I may quote myself Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 08:14 Mataza wrote:
You're actually correct that Hellfirebolt max first is better for fighting. My only gripe is that it still isn't very good.
[...]
Just about the only thing he has going for him right now is that he can be jungled from lvl 1.
Well yeah that's pretty much all true (I wouldn't personally call his slow as hell jungle potential with vamp aura level 1 even worth considering as a strength, but that's moot), but you're moving the goalposts: I was responding to your saying his stun was relatively bad (which you seemed to mean "in isolation", and compared directly to other stuns), now you're saying it's not so much that it's bad, it's that it's not outstanding enough by itself to mitigate his other issues. That's a different discussion. A relevant one to talk about, certainly, but I still don't buy that Hellfire Blast is worse than so many other stuns like you said in the first place. If CK had it instead of Chaos Bolt, he'd barely be worse. And there are no carries with a good stun + nuke that don't have mana issues.
I don't actually think his crit is that good by itself, for the record. You can say it's the fourth best in the game, sure (after PA, Jugg, and Daedalus), or you could say it's the fifth worst (counting Lycan's shapeshift crit but not his wolves' crit). It's barely ahead of Brew's by 1.25% average dps increase, and Brew's skill gives him evasion as well. I think the new active has great situational potential from level 2 all the way to extreme lategame, so it needs to be considered in any fair discussion. Whether it solves his overall issues is another matter, but I will point out that you consider one of those issue to be that he doesn't contribute well to bursting somebody down. 20% max HP removal that goes through magic immunity is pretty good for that purpose.
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fantasy combat strategy
FCRTS
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We should just call it Fantasy Action Real Time Strategy for shits and giggles.
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On July 12 2013 09:08 LAN-f34r wrote:Regardless of whether its a good crit or not, its still not a good early game skill. Crits are only effective mid-late game, when you have lots of DPS which the crits amplify. But then you have all skill maxed anyway so what you max first is moot. Stun is the only skill that is actually good early game (apart from the mortal strike thing which only needs one point anyway). As such, its the first skill you get. Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 08:32 crms wrote:On July 12 2013 08:12 TheYango wrote:On July 12 2013 07:19 Mataza wrote:
Total damage: 80 / 160 / 230 / 300
source: playdota
Crit increases your neutral farm speed if nothing else. In a drawn out fight you will probably not be stunned the whole time. Leoric isn't the type of hero of hero that wants short bursty fights in my opinion.
If you focus on hellfirebolt, then in the end you will get a weak version of Sven.
Even getting a soul ring, and items that increase mana pool and without his ultimate he will get maybe 4 stuns out around lvl 11.
That's just not that good. I wanted to type a response to this post, but everything that came to mind would have been banworthy. Yango bot is unstable, can we get r1ch in here to reboot? I'm scared. I wonder what happens if it breaks... Um... Drum is a bad item, and chinese players are bad at dota.
I found some quotes
TheYango has always wrote that:
Vanguard's the best early-midgame item.
Get linkens on weaver.
Valve always fixes reported bugs promptly.
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but combat is definitely better than action >.>
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On July 12 2013 10:29 rebdomine wrote:
We should just call it Fantasy Action Real Time Strategy for shits and giggles.
this..is..brilliant
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On July 12 2013 10:13 FinestHour wrote:
fantasy combat strategy
FCRTS
you forgot f2p
F2PFCRTS.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
On July 12 2013 10:29 rebdomine wrote:
We should just call it Fantasy Action Real Time Strategy for shits and giggles.
I did not pick up on this the first time I read it, well done rofl.
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still an inferior moba tho :{{{{{{{
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Logged on and pretty awesome how we are currently at $2,520,565 for the prize pool. It is getting close but if there is a sudden push as the International gets closer, we can get the Immortal Item price for reaching $2,600,000.
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On July 12 2013 10:11 GentleDrill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 09:34 Mataza wrote:On July 12 2013 08:36 GentleDrill wrote:On July 12 2013 08:14 Mataza wrote:
You're actually correct that Hellfirebolt max first is better for fighting. My only gripe is that it still isn't very good.
Comparing his basic skills across the board, critical strike is the only one that's actually quite good.
His stun is outshone in damage and availability(mana) by many heroes. Only strong point is slightly faster cooldown.
His vampiric aura was inferior to Naix's old lifesteal aura and comparable skills.
His crit is 3rd best in the game, after Juggernaut's Blade Dance and Mortred's Coup de Grace.
If you want to play Skeleking to his strengths you will have a hard time, since he doesn't really have any.
Just about the only thing he has going for him right now is that he can be jungled from lvl 1.
Sven got a makeover and became awesome. Skeleking got a makeover at the same time and stayed just as bad.
/rant How can you talk about SK's remake and not even mention the thing that was remade? And what are these other stuns that outshine his? Sven's trades out the 2 seconds of slow for 25 damage, aoe, 75 range (all good) but double the cooldown, and their mana is comparable. CK's averages out to about the same damage and less stun at level 1, but quite alot less damage and more stun at max level (taking mean values), and has slightly less range, but a faster projectile, so on average it's probably slightly better but no more. And their mana is comparable. You can start comparing it to stuns on supports that might have big draws, but they all also have drawbacks. Lesh and Lina's are delayed. Lion and Nyx's are worse disables at level 1. And it's not really fair to compare to the stuns on supports because that's a different class of hero. I'm not claiming that Hellfire Blast is the best stun/nuke in the game but it's at worse slightly worse than any others that exist. I'm not sure how you reason that a theoretical four 2-second-stuns-plus-2-second-slows from one hero in a teamfight isn't good (it's probably unrealistic but if any hero ever did that much in any one teamfight it'd be ridiculous). And what's the point comparing to skills that don't exist anymore? If you want to make this serious, then you should take into account his full skillset in unison. Skele has a stun he can barely support mana wise, a crit and a lifesteal aura. His ultimate is that he is reborn if he has the mana and doesn't have it on cd. On top of that he has 300 ms which is at best average and crappy agi gain. Crit and lifesteal work together to make him a durable rightclicker. His ultimate helps reinforce that too. What this skillset wants is to manfight. Lock horns and right click each other as hard as you can. Win against your enemy because of your lifesteal. The 2 flaws is that people can just walk away from him and that burst damage exists and excels(and he lacks it). People that can coordinate their spells can explode heroes in a few seconds and doing that is much better than killing people with right clicking. His stun is the odd man out here. A: It is not enough to stop people from running away. B: Its damage is average. It is not a good contribution to bursting someone down. 20% slow for 2 seconds isn't the redeeming quality it needs. Slowing someone 20% for 2 seconds is just slightly better than hitting him with an orb of venom, which gives 12% slow for 4 seconds. Out of experience, anything below 35% slow barely qualifies as debuff. That SK is slowish and his stun has a short cast range just adds insult to injury. Also if I may quote myself On July 12 2013 08:14 Mataza wrote:
You're actually correct that Hellfirebolt max first is better for fighting. My only gripe is that it still isn't very good.
[...]
Just about the only thing he has going for him right now is that he can be jungled from lvl 1.
Well yeah that's pretty much all true (I wouldn't personally call his slow as hell jungle potential with vamp aura level 1 even worth considering as a strength, but that's moot), but you're moving the goalposts: I was responding to your saying his stun was relatively bad (which you seemed to mean "in isolation", and compared directly to other stuns), now you're saying it's not so much that it's bad, it's that it's not outstanding enough by itself to mitigate his other issues. That's a different discussion. A relevant one to talk about, certainly, but I still don't buy that Hellfire Blast is worse than so many other stuns like you said in the first place. If CK had it instead of Chaos Bolt, he'd barely be worse. And there are no carries with a good stun + nuke that don't have mana issues. I don't actually think his crit is that good by itself, for the record. You can say it's the fourth best in the game, sure (after PA, Jugg, and Daedalus), or you could say it's the fifth worst (counting Lycan's shapeshift crit but not his wolves' crit). It's barely ahead of Brew's by 1.25% average dps increase, and Brew's skill gives him evasion as well. I think the new active has great situational potential from level 2 all the way to extreme lategame, so it needs to be considered in any fair discussion. Whether it solves his overall issues is another matter, but I will point out that you consider one of those issue to be that he doesn't contribute well to bursting somebody down. 20% max HP removal that goes through magic immunity is pretty good for that purpose.
In my original post I mentioned availability instead of simply mana for the reason that a tool is only as good as the means to deliver it.
And the thing about the stun is that it is mediocre in all aspects but its cooldown.
2 seconds is ok-ish. Venge's stun is slightly shorter, Fissure is slightly shorter, Impale is longer, Chaos Bolt is same length or longer, all the area stuns are between 1.6 and 2.75 seconds stun.
Its not especially cheap, the cast range isn't on the upper half of skills, the projectile speed is average.
As you said the crit isn't too good either. So the only things left are the lifesteal aura and ultimate.
And just having lifesteal and being tanky is not that great. People will just play around you, like a big rock. You can't kill a big rock, but besides falling over the rock poses no danger.
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On July 12 2013 10:51 Nilrem wrote:
Logged on and pretty awesome how we are currently at $2,520,565 for the prize pool. It is getting close but if there is a sudden push as the International gets closer, we can get the Immortal Item price for reaching $2,600,000.
80k is definitely possible by TI3
3.2m is a distant dream, especially with the steam sale that just started
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so much for techies after TI3 
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On July 12 2013 14:33 DoNotDisturb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 10:51 Nilrem wrote:
Logged on and pretty awesome how we are currently at $2,520,565 for the prize pool. It is getting close but if there is a sudden push as the International gets closer, we can get the Immortal Item price for reaching $2,600,000. 80k is definitely possible by TI3 3.2m is a distant dream, especially with the steam sale that just started
Yeah sorry Valve I can't spend anymore money on Dota 2 because STEAM SALE OMG VALVE TAKE MY MONEY!
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EPT
