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On June 29 2013 11:01 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 10:59 SKC wrote:On June 29 2013 10:58 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 29 2013 10:51 Firebolt145 wrote:
There is no way lion wins against OD. Any time you walk up to him to mana drain he'll just imprison you instead of himself. Bottle rush isn't the standard either, it's only situational against some heroes.
And even if he doesn't get to astral imprison you much he'll still out last hit you. doesn't win, just goes even. you drain after the astral on you, so he can't do anything but run uphill toward you to hit you or run away and take the full drain, or attack from low ground and do well solely based on miss chance. he'll out last hit you overall, but he can't shut you down too hard. level 5 is the hardest level. but at level your cooldown is 4 seconds shorter on mana drain than astral, so you can drain on CD and get a full drain off pretty easily. its not too bad overall if you play well. Him getting all the last hits and you getting a kill, while having a very suboptimal build is not going even. He gets most. at level 1 you can contest them and its up to whether his timing is significantly better than yours or not, level 2 is similar but he has more of an advantage going in. level 3 you can start being a dick to him, level 4 give you a little more bully room, level 5 is rough, level 6 you get a kill. he shouldn't be getting every last hit, but he's definitely not shut down by any means.
How can you contest them at level 1-2? One astral and you are done.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 29 2013 11:01 Shinbi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 10:59 run.at.me wrote:
Wouldn't silencer be an annoying mid? Provided he had a bottle, once lvl 3 spamming curse of silent and running back so od is forced to astral himself Why would he astral himself instead of Silencer, or am I forgetting something about Silencer?
CotS has longer range than Astral.
Of course, in that scenario there's no actual incentive for the OD to even bother breaking CotS. If you're going to walk away from the creep wave, he'll just take the CotS damage and lasthit without you interrupting him.
On June 29 2013 11:02 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 11:01 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 29 2013 10:59 SKC wrote:On June 29 2013 10:58 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 29 2013 10:51 Firebolt145 wrote:
There is no way lion wins against OD. Any time you walk up to him to mana drain he'll just imprison you instead of himself. Bottle rush isn't the standard either, it's only situational against some heroes.
And even if he doesn't get to astral imprison you much he'll still out last hit you. doesn't win, just goes even. you drain after the astral on you, so he can't do anything but run uphill toward you to hit you or run away and take the full drain, or attack from low ground and do well solely based on miss chance. he'll out last hit you overall, but he can't shut you down too hard. level 5 is the hardest level. but at level your cooldown is 4 seconds shorter on mana drain than astral, so you can drain on CD and get a full drain off pretty easily. its not too bad overall if you play well. Him getting all the last hits and you getting a kill, while having a very suboptimal build is not going even. He gets most. at level 1 you can contest them and its up to whether his timing is significantly better than yours or not, level 2 is similar but he has more of an advantage going in. level 3 you can start being a dick to him, level 4 give you a little more bully room, level 5 is rough, level 6 you get a kill. he shouldn't be getting every last hit, but he's definitely not shut down by any means. How can you contest them at level 1-2? One astral and you are done.
He made the flimsy assumption that OD would start a Bottle rush start for whatever reason, and also assumed that OD would let him get away with starting no Salve.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
What's this whole xiao8 betting controversy all about? Are people in China actually having a problem with that he bet on a match that he isn't involved in? Or is this like "some people online" and not really anyone important, what's the extent of the drama.
Because I can't imagine the western community would care if Dendi bet on VP to beat Fnatic or something.
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On June 29 2013 11:02 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 11:01 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 29 2013 10:59 SKC wrote:On June 29 2013 10:58 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 29 2013 10:51 Firebolt145 wrote:
There is no way lion wins against OD. Any time you walk up to him to mana drain he'll just imprison you instead of himself. Bottle rush isn't the standard either, it's only situational against some heroes.
And even if he doesn't get to astral imprison you much he'll still out last hit you. doesn't win, just goes even. you drain after the astral on you, so he can't do anything but run uphill toward you to hit you or run away and take the full drain, or attack from low ground and do well solely based on miss chance. he'll out last hit you overall, but he can't shut you down too hard. level 5 is the hardest level. but at level your cooldown is 4 seconds shorter on mana drain than astral, so you can drain on CD and get a full drain off pretty easily. its not too bad overall if you play well. Him getting all the last hits and you getting a kill, while having a very suboptimal build is not going even. He gets most. at level 1 you can contest them and its up to whether his timing is significantly better than yours or not, level 2 is similar but he has more of an advantage going in. level 3 you can start being a dick to him, level 4 give you a little more bully room, level 5 is rough, level 6 you get a kill. he shouldn't be getting every last hit, but he's definitely not shut down by any means. How can you contest them at level 1-2? One astral and you are done.
a 12-14 damage difference isn't enough to make you completely fail at last hitting. in addition you have the ability to stun him and take a last hit and deny. while he can either save astral for that and be able to last hit from the top of the cliff fine (no vision for him and he has to run into creep wave even if he did) or he can astral away and then can lose last hits to good lion timing.
On June 29 2013 11:03 TheYango wrote:
He made the flimsy assumption that OD would start a Bottle rush start for whatever reason, and also assumed that OD would let him get away with starting no Salve.
you can afford the salve if you want to start salve on lion. its not like null talisman costs 504 gold.
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od vs lion isn't even close, od gets near freefarm versus lion
he'll be going like 60+/30+ easily in 10 minutes unless the side lanes rotate for you
like he doesn't even need to astral more than once a minute he can just sit there and lasthit
also outranging astral doesn't matter, you're trading one autoattack for an astral
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United States47024 Posts
How is it a 12-14 damage difference? It's 11 damage fundamentally, the first Astral makes it 19, and the second one makes it 27. Even if you're somehow not punished for starting Null Talisman, it's never going to be a 12-14 damage difference. No matter how much you drain, you're never going to be able to drain so much that he can't have at least 1 Astral debuff on you at all times. Past level 3 it will be a 20 damage difference minimum.
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On June 29 2013 11:10 TheYango wrote:
How is it a 12-14 damage difference? It's 11 damage fundamentally, the first Astral makes it 19, and the second one makes it 27. Even if you're somehow not punished for starting Null Talisman, it's never going to be a 12-14 damage difference.
null gives 9, which brings the difference to like 1, OD starts +6 damage that makes it 7 7+8 is 15. the first astral shouldn't be given up until the second wave, unless the OD dives at you i guess. so thats one wave at 6 damage, next wave at 15, and then third wave at like 23 if you get caught again in another astral, which you may or may not. depending on how you handle that second wave.
Its definitely not lion getting crushed though. its not easy and but its not awful.
as the existence of SF states, you can handle a -15 damage difference as a laner if you play well. so thats two waves of contention if you play properly.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 29 2013 11:13 PrinceXizor wrote:
null gives 9, which brings the difference to like 1, OD starts +6 damage that makes it 7 7+8 is 15. the first astral shouldn't be given up until the second wave, unless the OD dives at you i guess. so thats one wave at 6 damage, next wave at 15, and then third wave at like 23 if you get caught again in another astral, which you may or may not.
Its definitely not lion getting crushed.
Who the hell says that? The first Astral is cast on the first wave--at the moment the first creep of the wave is about to be in lasthit range at the very latest.
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On June 29 2013 11:13 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 11:10 TheYango wrote:
How is it a 12-14 damage difference? It's 11 damage fundamentally, the first Astral makes it 19, and the second one makes it 27. Even if you're somehow not punished for starting Null Talisman, it's never going to be a 12-14 damage difference. null gives 9, which brings the difference to like 1, OD starts +6 damage that makes it 7 7+8 is 15. the first astral shouldn't be given up until the second wave, unless the OD dives at you i guess. so thats one wave at 6 damage, next wave at 15, and then third wave at like 23 if you get caught again in another astral, which you may or may not. Its definitely not lion getting crushed.
Why wouldn't he agressively astral you in the first wave? There's not much you can do to prevent it.
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On June 29 2013 11:15 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 11:13 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 29 2013 11:10 TheYango wrote:
How is it a 12-14 damage difference? It's 11 damage fundamentally, the first Astral makes it 19, and the second one makes it 27. Even if you're somehow not punished for starting Null Talisman, it's never going to be a 12-14 damage difference. null gives 9, which brings the difference to like 1, OD starts +6 damage that makes it 7 7+8 is 15. the first astral shouldn't be given up until the second wave, unless the OD dives at you i guess. so thats one wave at 6 damage, next wave at 15, and then third wave at like 23 if you get caught again in another astral, which you may or may not. Its definitely not lion getting crushed. Why wouldn't he agressively astral you in the first wave? There's not much you can do to prevent it.
you just impale him + the creep to be last hit and walk away with the last hit and a hit on OD and he has to chase away from the wave (and miss last hits) to try to astral you. you should be on top of you cliff, so he has to get UP the cliff before he can even target you.
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On June 29 2013 11:16 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 11:15 SKC wrote:On June 29 2013 11:13 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 29 2013 11:10 TheYango wrote:
How is it a 12-14 damage difference? It's 11 damage fundamentally, the first Astral makes it 19, and the second one makes it 27. Even if you're somehow not punished for starting Null Talisman, it's never going to be a 12-14 damage difference. null gives 9, which brings the difference to like 1, OD starts +6 damage that makes it 7 7+8 is 15. the first astral shouldn't be given up until the second wave, unless the OD dives at you i guess. so thats one wave at 6 damage, next wave at 15, and then third wave at like 23 if you get caught again in another astral, which you may or may not. Its definitely not lion getting crushed. Why wouldn't he agressively astral you in the first wave? There's not much you can do to prevent it. you just impale him + the creep to be last hit and walk away with the last hit and a hit on OD and he has to chase away from the wave (and miss last hits) to try to astral you. you should be on top of you cliff, so he has to get UP the cliff before he can even target you.
How would the creep be low enough for you to LH him? He will do it when they are in full health. If you stun him that's the sign he can just move even more agressivelly because you have nothing.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 29 2013 11:16 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 11:15 SKC wrote:On June 29 2013 11:13 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 29 2013 11:10 TheYango wrote:
How is it a 12-14 damage difference? It's 11 damage fundamentally, the first Astral makes it 19, and the second one makes it 27. Even if you're somehow not punished for starting Null Talisman, it's never going to be a 12-14 damage difference. null gives 9, which brings the difference to like 1, OD starts +6 damage that makes it 7 7+8 is 15. the first astral shouldn't be given up until the second wave, unless the OD dives at you i guess. so thats one wave at 6 damage, next wave at 15, and then third wave at like 23 if you get caught again in another astral, which you may or may not. Its definitely not lion getting crushed. Why wouldn't he agressively astral you in the first wave? There's not much you can do to prevent it. you just impale him + the creep to be last hit and walk away with the last hit and a hit on OD and he has to chase away from the wave (and miss last hits) to try to astral you. you should be on top of you cliff, so he has to get UP the cliff before he can even target you.
And what about the remaining 3 creeps? Do you just not get XP on them in order to not get Astralled?
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Did any of you guys get any player cards today? I haven't heard about these, maybe I missed it in the last compendium update. Are they just trading cards? I got Banana
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United States47024 Posts
On June 29 2013 11:19 Dankleteer wrote:
Did any of you guys get any player cards today? I haven't heard about these, maybe I missed it in the last compendium update. Are they just trading cards? I got Banana
There are unannounced bonuses for collecting them.
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On June 29 2013 11:18 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 11:16 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 29 2013 11:15 SKC wrote:On June 29 2013 11:13 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 29 2013 11:10 TheYango wrote:
How is it a 12-14 damage difference? It's 11 damage fundamentally, the first Astral makes it 19, and the second one makes it 27. Even if you're somehow not punished for starting Null Talisman, it's never going to be a 12-14 damage difference. null gives 9, which brings the difference to like 1, OD starts +6 damage that makes it 7 7+8 is 15. the first astral shouldn't be given up until the second wave, unless the OD dives at you i guess. so thats one wave at 6 damage, next wave at 15, and then third wave at like 23 if you get caught again in another astral, which you may or may not. Its definitely not lion getting crushed. Why wouldn't he agressively astral you in the first wave? There's not much you can do to prevent it. you just impale him + the creep to be last hit and walk away with the last hit and a hit on OD and he has to chase away from the wave (and miss last hits) to try to astral you. you should be on top of you cliff, so he has to get UP the cliff before he can even target you. How would the creep be low enough for you to LH him? He will do it when they are in full health. If you stun him that's the sign he can just move even more agressivelly because you have nothing.
? how is he going to astral me when i'm up the cliff, lion can last hit from cliff -> river OD can't see uphill without being on the other side of river or up your side. if you mean OD just dives headfirst at the as soon as the creep wave arrives you can attack impale attack and back off for 10 seconds, and he's not going to be able to get enough of the wave in that 10 seconds to make too much of a difference, and if he's positioning himself on your side of the cliff at level one... with OD... guess where your supports should be beelining.
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i saw arteezy doing well mid with syllabear vs funzis od on his stream
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United States47024 Posts
PX, attacking gives uphill vision. If you stay on high ground, he just needs to Astral you with the vision granted from you going for a lasthit.
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On June 29 2013 11:23 TheYango wrote:
PX, attacking gives uphill vision. If you stay on high ground, he just needs to Astral you with the vision granted from you going for a lasthit.
yeah i know. he has to position himself IN the creep wave for that to be in range though. you shouldn't be attacking until you are last hitting a creep.
in general for OD to do what he needs to do vs lion he has to put himself in bad positions the whole lane. and that's a recipe for disaster with OD.
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Even then, what prevents him from moving into your high ground when the creep waves clash? If you hit him, you give vision. If you stun him, he can be even more agressive.
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On June 29 2013 11:27 SKC wrote:
Even then, what prevents him from moving into your high ground when the creep waves clash? If you hit him, you give vision. If you stun him, he can be even more agressive.
the fact that he doesn't get anything out of it. you attack -> impale attack and back off for 10 seconds for impale CD, first creep starts to die about 7 seconds after, unless he's pushing the lane at you, you get back in time with impale to be fine for contesting most of the wave. if he's camping your highground for the whole wave he dies to a gank pretty easily. because he's OD.
anyway guys. i'm going out for the night.  . ttyl guys <3
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EPT
