|
|
On June 29 2013 10:26 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 10:18 icystorage wrote:On June 29 2013 10:15 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 29 2013 10:14 icystorage wrote:On June 29 2013 10:12 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 29 2013 10:10 TheYango wrote:On June 29 2013 10:06 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 29 2013 09:33 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Speaking of OD mid... who even does well against him or can at least go even? I can't think of a single matchup that could be good. Maybe lone druid? Venomancer does pretty well, lion as well. they don't win the lane unless you outplay the OD though. but both do pretty well. but they definitely aren't standard mids anymore. Lion gets crushed unless you're talking to setting up ganks. He has fairly low base damage already and unless OD gets really unlucky, Lion won't have mana at 6 for a full combo, which means OD shouldn't die unless he gets cocky. Venomancer is ok, but pretty much has to rely on his passive. Shouldn't you be just draining mana from OD so he has to bottle crow to keep astraling you? inherently giving you the mana to get a lvl 6 combo off to kill OD. you cant pull of the combo if your max mana pool is low (due to int steal) even when you have full mana uhhhh. when he has to bottle crow to keep astrals he'll have a window that the int steal wears off, which is the point of it. i'm aware how heroes work. but the duration of the steal is 60 seconds... yeah and the 30 seconds it takes to bottle crow should get you up to 24 int back which is 312 mana which is like 8 mana off of a full combo. if he's spamming astral on you that is. if he's not you'll have the 320 mana to spend unless you mismanage your mana somehow with a 2/0/3/1 build. OD shouldn't ever have enough mana to astral you more than twice without needing to refill a bottle with that. and its not exactly possible for OD to drain you below 10 mana so you can't drain him.
your talking as if OD will just stand there when you drain him. as yango as said, he has a larger right click damage. even if you get level 1 mana drain, its just 80 mana total and 4 second channeling, those 4 seconds is enough time to kill you. you cant trade right click damage, you could impale him and hex (assuming you have the mana for it) but i doubt lion could win
|
United States47024 Posts
He won't have Hex because he's leveling 2-0-3-1 lol.
Here's your dilemma PX. If you come to lane with Null Talisman, OD will just fight you level 1, trade out a Salve and force you to wait for Tango healing by trading down to like 100 HP (OD has FAR better level 1 base stats). You have to take Impale level 1 to disengage from this or you lose every lasthit on the first 2 waves waiting for Tango healing. But if you take Impale on the first wave, you can't start draining him till level 2, meaning you're at -8 Intel before that happens because he'll Astral you twice. Which means before you even ever get a chance to Drain him, he's maintained a +8/-8 damage difference.
|
I never said you win vs OD, just you do well enough and go even. you can contest last hits fine if you control creep health well at level 1, level 2 is more of the same, level 3 every astral you drain his mana in return, level 5 drain is enough to pressure him to have to do something or stop astrals, but you don't get many last hits, and then level 6 you can get a kill.
and you shouldn't die except with a gank to OD, and OD shouldn't die before 6 except to a gank as well, IF OD plays too cautiously at level 6 and you can't get a kill, you just roam and dominate another lane that can't handle the finger.
|
United States47024 Posts
Actually, now that I think about it, how did you even getting a 7 damage swing out of a Null Talisman?
Null Talisman is +6 Int, +3 damage, which is +9. Tango + Salve + 3 Branch + Mantle is +6 Intel, meaning the Null only gives you a 3 damage swing.
|
On June 29 2013 10:40 PrinceXizor wrote:
I never said you win vs OD, just you do well enough and go even. you can contest last hits fine if you control creep health well at level 1, level 2 is more of the same, level 3 every astral you drain his mana in return, level 5 drain is enough to pressure him to have to do something or stop astrals, but you don't get many last hits, and then level 6 you can get a kill.
so at level 3, he astrals you, upon returning, you immediately drain him, but OD just stands there and hits you. for 4 seconds.
|
On June 29 2013 10:41 TheYango wrote:
Actually, now that I think about it, how did you even getting a 7 damage swing out of a Null Talisman?
Null Talisman is +6 Int, +3 damage, which is +9. Tango + Salve + 3 Branch + Mantle is +6 Intel, meaning the Null only gives you a 3 damage swing.
i was going the standard bottle rush item build out of OD, not a mantle start.
On June 29 2013 10:42 icystorage wrote:
so at level 3, he astrals you, upon returning, you immediately drain him, but OD just stands there and hits you. for 4 seconds.
you should be on high ground, and his range puts him on low ground, you have 10 int post astrals at level 3, which means you should have 130 mana, which is an impale -> mana drain (110 mana) which gives him 2 autos vs you from low ground, or one/2 from high ground but you get to hit him back.
|
United States47024 Posts
Except why would OD rush a Bottle without a Mantle or Circlet?
Bottle isn't even a must-buy on that hero--it's only a situational pickup for certain 1v1 lanes, so making an item start that hurts your level 1 with the expectation of getting 1 isn't something you should expect.
|
On June 29 2013 10:44 TheYango wrote:
Except why would OD rush a Bottle without a Mantle or Circlet?
Bottle isn't even a must-buy on that hero--it's only a situational pickup for certain 1v1 lanes, so making an item start that hurts your level 1 with the expectation of getting 1 isn't something you should expect.
if he doesn't get a bottle rush then he's entirely reliant on preventing your level 3 or he doesn't get to spam on you anymore and the lane gets worse and worse for him comparatively though
|
He only needs one early astral to get the advantage. Even if you level mana drain at level 1, he just has to play a bit passive until astral is out of CD and he can then astral on demand. Repeat every minute. You are seriously overestimating mana drain, if the target isn't close to you it won't take away that much mana. If OD is going bottle he definatelly has enough to handle the little you will drain before being interrupted.
Bottle rush is important for heroes that have a hard time getting LHs. 150-200g won't delay the bottle too much for OD.
|
United States47024 Posts
He still has Bottle before your level 3 with a Tango+Salve+Mantle+3 Branch start. That's only 7-8 creeps to get before level 3.
|
On June 29 2013 10:48 SKC wrote:
He only needs one early astral to get the advantage. Even if you level mana drain at level 1, he just has to play a bit passive until astral is out of CD and he can then astral on demand. Repeat every minute. You are seriously overestimating mana drain, if the target isn't close to you it won't take away that much mana. If OD is going bottle he definatelly has enough to handle the little you will drain before being interrupted.
if the creeps are in the river you can stand on the high ground and drain him post astral and he has to run to his t1 to break it. it takes away a LOT of mana in mid lane.
Like i said, you don't get crushed, and you make up a lot of ground with the level6 kill or roam. but you certainly don't BEAT OD. you just kind of each do your own shit (him getting high last hits, you getting level 6 and a kill), and everyone moves on. You can argue that its not worth sending a lion mid vs OD because its not worth sending someone that doesn't keep him from farming a lot, but thats arguing a choice more than how the lane goes. (and i'd agree in most comps its probably a bad idea to send lion mid vs OD, as the return isn't as useful)
|
Lalalaland34507 Posts
There is no way lion wins against OD. Any time you walk up to him to mana drain he'll just imprison you instead of himself. Bottle rush isn't the standard either, it's only situational against some heroes.
And even if he doesn't get to astral imprison you much he'll still out last hit you.
|
On June 29 2013 10:49 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 10:48 SKC wrote:
He only needs one early astral to get the advantage. Even if you level mana drain at level 1, he just has to play a bit passive until astral is out of CD and he can then astral on demand. Repeat every minute. You are seriously overestimating mana drain, if the target isn't close to you it won't take away that much mana. If OD is going bottle he definatelly has enough to handle the little you will drain before being interrupted. if the creeps are in the river you can stand on the high ground and drain him post astral and he has to run to his t1 to break it. it takes away a LOT of mana in mid lane. Like i said, you don't get crushed, and you make up a lot of ground with the level6 kill or roam. but you certainly don't BEAT OD. you just kind of each do your own shit (him getting high last hits, you getting level 6 and a kill), and everyone moves on. You can argue that its not worth sending a lion mid vs OD because its not worth sending someone that doesn't keep him from farming a lot, but thats arguing a choice more than how the lane goes. (and i'd agree in most comps its probably a bad idea to send lion mid vs OD, as the return isn't as useful)
If you are talking about the first astral, he will obviously astral you before you get to high ground. The others can be interrupted by astralling him.
A lot of heroes don't die to OD and are able to get levels, but not last hits. If you claim Lion is a good hero against him, he must do better than most heroes do, which means contesting LHs at least a little bit.
|
United States47024 Posts
On June 29 2013 10:49 PrinceXizor wrote:
Like i said, you don't get crushed, and you make up a lot of ground with the level6 kill or roam. but you certainly don't BEAT OD. you just kind of each do your own shit (him getting high last hits, you getting level 6 and a kill), and everyone moves on. You can argue that its not worth sending a lion mid vs OD because its not worth sending someone that doesn't keep him from farming a lot, but thats arguing a choice more than how the lane goes. (and i'd agree in most comps its probably a bad idea to send lion mid vs OD, as the return isn't as useful)
You're expecting a Lion with 2-0-3-1 to roam with any effectiveness? You'll get a kill with ult, sure, but rank 2 Impale and no Hex leaves a lot to be desired in terms of actually getting kills in the sidelanes.
Mana Drain best ganking skill.
|
On June 29 2013 10:51 Firebolt145 wrote:
There is no way lion wins against OD. Any time you walk up to him to mana drain he'll just imprison you instead of himself. Bottle rush isn't the standard either, it's only situational against some heroes.
And even if he doesn't get to astral imprison you much he'll still out last hit you.
doesn't win, just goes even. you drain after the astral on you, so he can't do anything but run uphill toward you to hit you or run away and take the full drain, or attack from low ground and do well solely based on miss chance.
he'll out last hit you overall, but he can't shut you down too hard. level 5 is the hardest level. but at level your cooldown is 4 seconds shorter on mana drain than astral, so you can drain on CD and get a full drain off pretty easily. its not too bad overall if you play well.
On June 29 2013 10:55 TheYango wrote:
You're expecting a Lion with 2-0-3-1 to roam with any effectiveness? You'll get a kill with ult, sure, but rank 2 Impale and no Hex leaves a lot to be desired in terms of actually getting kills in the sidelanes.
Mana Drain best ganking skill.
Finger gets you a kill, which gets you a level, which gets you hex. all you need is that first kill to get rolling on lion. even from going a heavy mana drain build.
|
On June 29 2013 10:58 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 10:51 Firebolt145 wrote:
There is no way lion wins against OD. Any time you walk up to him to mana drain he'll just imprison you instead of himself. Bottle rush isn't the standard either, it's only situational against some heroes.
And even if he doesn't get to astral imprison you much he'll still out last hit you. doesn't win, just goes even. you drain after the astral on you, so he can't do anything but run uphill toward you to hit you or run away and take the full drain, or attack from low ground and do well solely based on miss chance. he'll out last hit you overall, but he can't shut you down too hard. level 5 is the hardest level. but at level your cooldown is 4 seconds shorter on mana drain than astral, so you can drain on CD and get a full drain off pretty easily. its not too bad overall if you play well.
Him getting all the last hits and you getting a kill, while having a very suboptimal build is not going even.
|
Wouldn't silencer be an annoying mid? Provided he had a bottle, once lvl 3 spamming curse of silent and running back so od is forced to astral himself
|
United States47024 Posts
On June 29 2013 10:58 PrinceXizor wrote:
Finger gets you a kill, which gets you a level, which gets you hex. all you need is that first kill to get rolling on lion. even from going a heavy mana drain build.
Fingering a support with XP split 2-3 ways will not give you a level. Unless you actually get the kill, you're actually going to be behind OD when you go back to mid because you've been gone for a minute.
|
On June 29 2013 10:59 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 10:58 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 29 2013 10:51 Firebolt145 wrote:
There is no way lion wins against OD. Any time you walk up to him to mana drain he'll just imprison you instead of himself. Bottle rush isn't the standard either, it's only situational against some heroes.
And even if he doesn't get to astral imprison you much he'll still out last hit you. doesn't win, just goes even. you drain after the astral on you, so he can't do anything but run uphill toward you to hit you or run away and take the full drain, or attack from low ground and do well solely based on miss chance. he'll out last hit you overall, but he can't shut you down too hard. level 5 is the hardest level. but at level your cooldown is 4 seconds shorter on mana drain than astral, so you can drain on CD and get a full drain off pretty easily. its not too bad overall if you play well. Him getting all the last hits and you getting a kill, while having a very suboptimal build is not going even.
He gets most. at level 1 you can contest them and its up to whether his timing is significantly better than yours or not, level 2 is similar but he has more of an advantage going in. level 3 you can start being a dick to him, level 4 give you a little more bully room, level 5 is rough, level 6 you get a kill. he shouldn't be getting every last hit, but he's definitely not shut down by any means.
don't forget you outrange astral with your autos so he has to run into the creep wave to astral you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
