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United States47024 Posts
Chinese pub SB is seen off-lane occasionally. There are videos for the hero played by 820 and PIS.
Basically the idea is that you abuse your sick base stats (Bara has probably the best overall base combat stats of any level 1 hero--65 damage 5 armor 700 HP without any items) to be able to stay in lane until you have level 3 + boots--then you can gank with 1-1-1 + Boots. Successful ganks get you to Urn, which gives you sustainability and more burst damage. After that, follow-ups are some combination of Lothar's (bashes on the Lothar's break hit get the +MS from Lothar's invis, and you can use Lothar's during Charge without interrupting it), BKB, Armlet, MoM, with your lategame items being typical Str carry fare to round you out (Halberd, AC, etc.).
Skill order is very situational. Charge max was generally the best pre-patch, and probably still is. After that Haste vs. Bash depends on how farmed you are and the teams.
On June 06 2013 08:07 BurningSera wrote:
Skill build is 0-1-1 at lvl2, and then max charge and bash, situationally you can you have even points in bash+haste but charge should always be maxed first. I used to max haste first on the old bara but after several changes it is just not worth it anymore.
I think Bash/Haste are better at level 1/2 in easier lanes, but Charge can be good in lanes that will want to kill you--most can't kill you in 1 round of spells, and baiting out a full combo in exchange for a Salve and Charge CD vs. certain mana-limited lanes like CK or Sven lanes will let you get to level 3 at zero risk.
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YYF also released some dota2 bara vod too, so funny to see chuan screaming behind iirc.
The hero is pretty much the same post-patch with the slight buff.
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dota2 is patching! what is it?
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On June 06 2013 08:07 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 07:36 TheTenthDoc wrote:
What's the best skillbuild for breaking spirits now?
I always used to max bash with alternating points in charge and haste for amazing level 6 kills. Maxing charge seems to do...nothing at all now, so that doesn't seem to be the answer. The hero is about utilizing his crazy ganking power, farm your basic items and you go chasing people around the map. I always ask for bara swap just in case people go farming bara in my team >_< Skill build is 0-1-1 at lvl2, and then max charge and bash, situationally you can you have even points in bash+haste but charge should always be maxed first. I used to max haste first on the old bara but after several changes it is just not worth it anymore.
I just don't get maxing charge. It's 50 ms per level (no longer increasing stun duration any more than greater bash). Greater bash gives you over 30 damage per bash with naked boots (gets higher as you build ms items). Greater Bash also makes your ult actually a spell at level 7. A 2/0/4/1 SB with naked boots does 340*0.4+150+340*0.4=422 damage and stuns for 4.8* seconds (not counting normal attacks).
With max charge your damage from the abilities is 218 and you stun for 4.8* seconds. Once you factor in extra bash hits the damage and stun slides even more.
EDITed for assuming you get the stun duration from charge AND the bash on charge. Not sure if that's how it works.
Note that getting your aura only makes the damage discrepancy worse. A single bash makes it even better to level bash.
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^ Bara charge stun scales better than greater bash. There are charge ganks, but charge has a significant strength in being used as a chained stun post ulti later on.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 06 2013 09:06 TheTenthDoc wrote:
EDITed for assuming you get the stun duration from charge AND the bash on charge. Not sure if that's how it works.
The stun durations overlap (they are applied both at the moment you hit your target). The only thing you gain from the initial charge bash is the damage.
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On June 06 2013 08:45 TheYango wrote:Chinese pub SB is seen off-lane occasionally. There are videos for the hero played by 820 and PIS. Basically the idea is that you abuse your sick base stats (Bara has probably the best overall base combat stats of any level 1 hero--65 damage 5 armor 700 HP without any items) to be able to stay in lane until you have level 3 + boots--then you can gank with 1-1-1 + Boots. Successful ganks get you to Urn, which gives you sustainability and more burst damage. After that, follow-ups are some combination of Lothar's (bashes on the Lothar's break hit get the +MS from Lothar's invis, and you can use Lothar's during Charge without interrupting it), BKB, Armlet, MoM, with your lategame items being typical Str carry fare to round you out (Halberd, AC, etc.). Skill order is very situational. Charge max was generally the best pre-patch, and probably still is. After that Haste vs. Bash depends on how farmed you are and the teams. Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 08:07 BurningSera wrote:
Skill build is 0-1-1 at lvl2, and then max charge and bash, situationally you can you have even points in bash+haste but charge should always be maxed first. I used to max haste first on the old bara but after several changes it is just not worth it anymore. I think Bash/Haste are better at level 1/2 in easier lanes, but Charge can be good in lanes that will want to kill you--most can't kill you in 1 round of spells, and baiting out a full combo in exchange for a Salve and Charge CD vs. certain mana-limited lanes like CK or Sven lanes will let you get to level 3 at zero risk.
I've played SB, extensively, and he's very decent offlane.
Even single target calculations, with one bash (from charge), leveling charge stun provides more damage on average than leveling greater bash.
When you get two stuns (charge + ult), leveling bash provides more damage.
Empowering haste never gives more damage than leveling either one. In fact it gives way less damage, by orders of magnitude. It MIGHT be worth getting one level early to help chase down targets, though you can also orb of venom.
Contrary to what aui thought on his luminous changelog, you don't get charge of darkness movement speed when calculating greater bashes. If you play him, you'll notice that whenever you go through a creep, you go from your typical movement speed to the +12 or 15 or 17% from going through units while greater bashing.
Lothars is silly, if you can get away with mask of madness. The latter gets you to almost max movement speed with full empowering haste (and the greater bash movement speed buff.
Orchid is very good on him, similar to orchid clinks. In solo killing it's the #2 item behind mask of madness (which effectively gives around 208 damage), and even in team fights, you can silence a support. The problem in a full teamfight is that unless the carry is very squishy, your damage doesn't scale well enough that you can kill a bkb carry unless they focus you. And supports often have ghost scepters by the time you have bkb from an offlane. If you have orchid, you still have a 5 second silence on their warlock or whatever, ghost scepter or not.
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On June 06 2013 09:15 PrinceXizor wrote:
^ Bara charge stun scales better than greater bash. There are charge ganks, but charge has a significant strength in being used as a chained stun post ulti later on.
...in which case if you have greater bash that chained charge stun will deal much, much more damage. And when both are down your right clicks will actually do something. Especially if you have a +MS item.
It's not like leveling charge drops the CD.
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On June 06 2013 09:15 PrinceXizor wrote:
^ Bara charge stun scales better than greater bash. There are charge ganks, but charge has a significant strength in being used as a chained stun post ulti later on.
Hey didn't you bring up offlane bara way back when? :D It's gonna be a thing!
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On June 06 2013 09:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 09:15 PrinceXizor wrote:
^ Bara charge stun scales better than greater bash. There are charge ganks, but charge has a significant strength in being used as a chained stun post ulti later on. ...in which case if you have greater bash that chained charge stun will deal much, much more damage. And when both are down your right clicks will actually do something. It's not like leveling charge drops the CD.
damage is far from important compared to total duration stunned during ganks.
On June 06 2013 09:23 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 09:15 PrinceXizor wrote:
^ Bara charge stun scales better than greater bash. There are charge ganks, but charge has a significant strength in being used as a chained stun post ulti later on. Hey didn't you bring up offlane bara way back when? :D It's gonna be a thing!
Yeah, he's pretty decent at it. i never thought it's be crazy strong, but i definitely saw it as a useful tool. and now china does it xD, ever since they buffed his starting stats like crazy it was probably inevitable, especially since so much of my theory was based on old empower haste buffing his base stats to be enough to offlane.
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United States47024 Posts
Charge MS is actually a big deal. 150 MS when approaching is actually very significant early game (Boots are only 50 MS, and the difference between Boots and no-Boots ganks is night and day). This is not something that seems that significant until you've played with both builds (I used to max Bash before seeing this done in Chinese pub games).
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On June 06 2013 09:06 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 08:07 BurningSera wrote:On June 06 2013 07:36 TheTenthDoc wrote:
What's the best skillbuild for breaking spirits now?
I always used to max bash with alternating points in charge and haste for amazing level 6 kills. Maxing charge seems to do...nothing at all now, so that doesn't seem to be the answer. The hero is about utilizing his crazy ganking power, farm your basic items and you go chasing people around the map. I always ask for bara swap just in case people go farming bara in my team >_< Skill build is 0-1-1 at lvl2, and then max charge and bash, situationally you can you have even points in bash+haste but charge should always be maxed first. I used to max haste first on the old bara but after several changes it is just not worth it anymore. I just don't get maxing charge. It's 50 ms per level (no longer increasing stun duration any more than greater bash). Greater bash gives you over 30 damage per bash with naked boots (gets higher as you build ms items). Greater Bash also makes your ult actually a spell at level 7. A 2/0/4/1 SB with naked boots does 340*0.4+150+340*0.4=422 damage and stuns for 4.4 seconds (not counting normal attacks). With max charge your damage from the abilities is 218 and you stun for 4.8* seconds. Once you factor in extra bash hits the damage and stun slides even more. EDITed for assuming you get the stun duration from charge AND the bash on charge. Not sure if that's how it works. Note that getting your aura only makes the damage discrepancy worse. A single bash makes it even better to level bash.
Well if your bara kept bashing so frequently with 2-0-4-1 then i dont see why not lol.
My pov is the charge speed that matters, the increased charged speed is very noticeable with each leveled up for effective ganking. Admittedly you can just leave it at lvl3 charge (2s stun) but i found that the rhythm of the game usually just fly through from lvl8 to lvl14 if you were constantly ganking effectively (so you get every spells maxed anyway) and charge helps you with that. Don't forget that there is cd of bash.
Charge stun applied first but overlaps with the stun duration from greater bash, you get around 2-4s stun on the target with maxing charge+bash.
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Finally, a big problem with spirit breaker is that his ult takes one second to "cast", so you're losing one second of dps. If you're able to, ult->charge will actually do more damage than charge->ult, because you are going
ult->charge: pause ult stun, dps/see if you proc bash, charge, dps
vs
charge->ult: charge, dps for a half second, then you must ult immediately to chain stun say a blinker, dps
So you're losing that full second of ulting in dps in the latter case.
However, if you charge first in a teamfight, you can run through their team and bash them on the way.
Edit: I would level charge, bash, charge, bash, charge, bash ult bash charge etc unless I don't have teammates and have to chase a tanky hero. In that case you might get one level of haste somewhere appropriate.
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charge is .4s extra stun per level
bash is like ~35 damage per bash per level
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On June 06 2013 09:24 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 09:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 06 2013 09:15 PrinceXizor wrote:
^ Bara charge stun scales better than greater bash. There are charge ganks, but charge has a significant strength in being used as a chained stun post ulti later on. ...in which case if you have greater bash that chained charge stun will deal much, much more damage. And when both are down your right clicks will actually do something. It's not like leveling charge drops the CD. damage is far from important compared to total duration stunned during ganks.
Leveling it also increases the duration of your stuns on enemies you charge through.
I can see it on supportbreakers. But you 100% sacrifice the ability to solo kill by maxing charge.
On June 06 2013 09:27 Dead9 wrote:
charge is .4s extra stun per level
bash is like ~35 damage per bash per level
Bash increases the stun of your bashes by 0.2 seconds/level (and if you chain bashes it's more than the 35 damage).
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bash chance is 17% and it has a cd of 1.5s
also with 3 levels in charge you can chain charge -> hit -> ulti instead of just charge -> ulti so you're not even losing out that much on damage
edit: also @igotmyown if you cancel the backswing on his ulti you can attack during the nether strike
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BEST PATCH EVER THANKS VALVE <33333
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United States47024 Posts
On June 06 2013 09:22 igotmyown wrote:
Empowering haste never gives more damage than leveling either one. In fact it gives way less damage, by orders of magnitude. It MIGHT be worth getting one level early to help chase down targets, though you can also orb of venom.
Contrary to what aui thought on his luminous changelog, you don't get charge of darkness movement speed when calculating greater bashes. If you play him, you'll notice that whenever you go through a creep, you go from your typical movement speed to the +12 or 15 or 17% from going through units while greater bashing.
Empowering Haste is gotten to help teammates follow up on ganks. Again, it depends on the team you have with you and how badly they need the MS to follow up on your gank targets (heroes with blinks, mobility skills, or long-range follow-up do not need the MS, while heroes that have to walk up to your gank targets benefit from having the aura so that they can start hitting them sooner).
On June 06 2013 09:22 igotmyown wrote:
Orchid is very good on him, similar to orchid clinks. In solo killing it's the #2 item behind mask of madness (which effectively gives around 208 damage), and even in team fights, you can silence a support. The problem in a full teamfight is that unless the carry is very squishy, your damage doesn't scale well enough that you can kill a bkb carry unless they focus you. And supports often have ghost scepters by the time you have bkb from an offlane. If you have orchid, you still have a 5 second silence on their warlock or whatever, ghost scepter or not.
The problem with Orchid is that SB does literally nothing with the mana, while Clinkz is a hero that actually uses the mana stats very well because he wants to have Searing Arrows on autocast, cast Death Pact on CD, and be able to use Strafe and Wind Walk whenever he wants--so his mana demands are actually pretty heavy.
SB has 2 skills with long CDs. The hero wastes 100% of the Orchid mana stats, which means you're paying 4k for 30 damage, 30 attack speed, and the active. The active is good, but it's not so good that it makes such mediocre cost-effectiveness compelling.
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On June 06 2013 09:27 igotmyown wrote:
Finally, a big problem with spirit breaker is that his ult takes one second to "cast", so you're losing one second of dps. If you're able to, ult->charge will actually do more damage than charge->ult, because you are going
ult->charge: pause ult stun, dps/see if you proc bash, charge, dps
vs
charge->ult: charge, dps for a half second, then you must ult immediately to chain stun say a blinker, dps
So you're losing that full second of ulting in dps in the latter case.
However, if you charge first in a teamfight, you can run through their team and bash them on the way.
Edit: I would level charge, bash, charge, bash, charge, bash ult bash charge etc unless I don't have teammates and have to chase a tanky hero. In that case you might get one level of haste somewhere appropriate.
in teamfights you should be ulting in then charging after that toward someone else.
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On June 06 2013 09:28 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 09:24 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 06 2013 09:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 06 2013 09:15 PrinceXizor wrote:
^ Bara charge stun scales better than greater bash. There are charge ganks, but charge has a significant strength in being used as a chained stun post ulti later on. ...in which case if you have greater bash that chained charge stun will deal much, much more damage. And when both are down your right clicks will actually do something. It's not like leveling charge drops the CD. damage is far from important compared to total duration stunned during ganks. Leveling it also increases the duration of your stuns on enemies you charge through. I can see it on supportbreakers. But you 100% sacrifice the ability to solo kill by maxing charge. Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 09:27 Dead9 wrote:
charge is .4s extra stun per level
bash is like ~35 damage per bash per level Bash increases the stun of your bashes by 0.2 seconds/level (and if you chain bashes it's more than the 35 damage).
The problem is 17% to bash if really low, so the damage done during the initial charge hit extra stun (and note that the longer stun will supercede the greater bash stun) is much greater. Also this is why spiritbreaker isn't great, 17% is too low to chain stun consistently.
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EPT
