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IRC chatter should remain in IRC - http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=tl.dota2

Posts that relate to topics with their own thread, such as in News, Tournaments or Strategy should go in those threads.
Jinxed
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States6450 Posts
June 01 2013 17:05 GMT
#59501
On June 02 2013 01:24 Comeh wrote:
Honestly, I'll be surprised if DK (really depends on how much this bottle crow hurts him), Alchemist, and Kunkka (if you consider him one) aren't the top carries of the next patch.


Honestly I think we'll see a lot more Doom this year as well. Now being able to stop passives like Feast is going to be pretty big even without the ags change.
LiquidDota Staff"LeLoup is a great name pls undo." -Liquid`Nazgul
BurningSera
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Ireland19621 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-01 18:02:16
June 01 2013 18:00 GMT
#59502
Holy that love letter to omni <3

And ya seriously it would be so damn cool to see a properly run #2 Omni (or even #1 because i am crazy) in a multi cores line up. Omni is actually a very good snowballer (some scary memories that i met some carry omni in some one-sided games...very rare though) and now that agha gives the team 2x Glyph, I can totally see him to get picked to run as a semi-carry against some multiple pushers line up (that would go into mid/late game that's it).


Also for anyone who loves the Mirana Lion set, I have talked to the maker of the set and indeed the set wasn't completed in the first place and somehow valve released it >_> He said that valve still wants him to finish it so we can expect improved version of it in future, its in-game model looks really meh but here is the hope!!!
is 2017, stop being lame, fuck's sakes. 'Can't wait for the rise of the cakes and humanity's last stand tbqh.'
hooahah
Profile Joined October 2011
3752 Posts
June 01 2013 18:12 GMT
#59503
On June 02 2013 00:57 BlitzerSC wrote:
Are the chances of dropping a rare item ( courier, announcer, and so on ) the same as dropping let's say a common item ?


I legit think that the chances of getting a rare item go up the worse you play. I.E. play like utter crap, feed, have the worst kda in the match - get the best item while everyone else (especially the best players) get chests. It's how I got all my extra rare couriers/wards/items.
Kazzoo
Profile Joined October 2010
France368 Posts
June 01 2013 18:30 GMT
#59504
I smell confirmation bias.
Shit's random.
hooahah
Profile Joined October 2011
3752 Posts
June 01 2013 18:39 GMT
#59505
http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/1003

It makes sense on a business level.
Yoshi-
Profile Joined October 2008
Germany10227 Posts
June 01 2013 18:44 GMT
#59506
Yea totally I just had a game where I had like 4 deaths and everyone else in the game was just feeding, I got nothing, while everyone else got an item.
Najda
Profile Joined June 2010
United States3765 Posts
June 01 2013 18:45 GMT
#59507
On June 02 2013 03:39 hooahah wrote:
http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/1003

It makes sense on a business level.


And thats how conspiracies are born.
Incze
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Romania2058 Posts
June 01 2013 19:04 GMT
#59508
On June 02 2013 03:12 hooahah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2013 00:57 BlitzerSC wrote:
Are the chances of dropping a rare item ( courier, announcer, and so on ) the same as dropping let's say a common item ?


I legit think that the chances of getting a rare item go up the worse you play. I.E. play like utter crap, feed, have the worst kda in the match - get the best item while everyone else (especially the best players) get chests. It's how I got all my extra rare couriers/wards/items.


Relevant: + Show Spoiler +
Religion: Buckethead
Adrian_mx
Profile Joined April 2010
Mexico1880 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-01 19:29:54
June 01 2013 19:24 GMT
#59509
I wonder what the top teir hereos are gonna be for may
edit: found it
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1I6sDPRv_kidxwSdHW-xK6Kat0gpzgwESxyFRaM8az4c/pub
我是冠军
RuskiPanda
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2906 Posts
June 01 2013 19:41 GMT
#59510
Omni doesn't really see play I feel because mid roles are generally playmakers and even if you do have a decent laning phase it just doesn't have the same terror as a roaming high level QoP/Storm/Skywrath/etc.
FinestHour
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18466 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-01 19:58:40
June 01 2013 19:55 GMT
#59511
someone said that you need like 65 views of ti3 games for max courier effect time to start dling
why did they change anti mage glaives again wtf
thug life.                                                       MVP/ex-
NB
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Netherlands12045 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-01 20:31:08
June 01 2013 20:26 GMT
#59512
protip: unequip coal/snow before using taunt. I wasted so much coal T_T... Anyone know the exact cd of taunt usage?

On June 02 2013 04:55 FinestHour wrote:
someone said that you need like 65 views of ti3 games for max courier effect time to start dling
why did they change anti mage glaives again wtf

70 views here, it looks like shit :-/ Just gona wait for the mounts
Im daed. Follow me @TL_NB
Shaella
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
United States14828 Posts
June 01 2013 21:17 GMT
#59513
Gonna start playing DK more now, any suggestions on item builds?

I think the logical progression is like

Drums>Armlet>HotD>BKB>luxury

Not sure if Treads or Phase are better tho
don't tell me to provide a legend for those charts cause we already got shaella in this thread - eieio | Bulba is my waifu
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
June 01 2013 21:19 GMT
#59514
On June 02 2013 06:17 Shaella wrote:
Gonna start playing DK more now, any suggestions on item builds?

I think the logical progression is like

Drums>Armlet>HotD>BKB>luxury

Not sure if Treads or Phase are better tho


What lane, how much farm
Shaella
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
United States14828 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-01 21:27:09
June 01 2013 21:26 GMT
#59515
On June 02 2013 06:19 Numy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2013 06:17 Shaella wrote:
Gonna start playing DK more now, any suggestions on item builds?

I think the logical progression is like

Drums>Armlet>HotD>BKB>luxury

Not sure if Treads or Phase are better tho


What lane, how much farm

Either safe or mid
i tend to FARM HARD
don't tell me to provide a legend for those charts cause we already got shaella in this thread - eieio | Bulba is my waifu
ch33psh33p
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
7650 Posts
June 01 2013 21:28 GMT
#59516
On June 02 2013 06:26 Shaella wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2013 06:19 Numy wrote:
On June 02 2013 06:17 Shaella wrote:
Gonna start playing DK more now, any suggestions on item builds?

I think the logical progression is like

Drums>Armlet>HotD>BKB>luxury

Not sure if Treads or Phase are better tho


What lane, how much farm

Either safe or mid
i tend to FARM HARD


Then mid is not for you. Mid DK is oriented towards a heavy mid game push, taking advantage of his ability to take towers and push creep waves with a maxed fire breath.

You tend to get a BKB / Shadowblade and just go for it.

If you're playing safe lane DK, and you farm HARD, you'd naturally be building for the late game.
secret - never again
Darkren
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1841 Posts
June 01 2013 21:48 GMT
#59517
On June 02 2013 01:58 Talron wrote:
So about an other hero: Omniknight. I love this hero since forever, so I'd be happy to see him in competetive play. So I actually wonder why he's fallen off popularity, because he was popular as a solo mid during 6.70 [someone correct me if I am wrong about the version], because he's only recieved buffs ever since.

+ Show Spoiler +
6.77 - Purification cast range rescaled from 400/500/600/700 to 700
6.76 - Purification cooldown decreased from 12 to 10
6.76 - Movement speed increased from 300 to 305
6.75 - Degen Aura AoE increased from 300 to 315
6.72 - Purification cast range increased from 400 to 400/500/600/700
6.70 - Degen Aura now also reduces attack speed (same values as the movement speed
6.70 - reduction)
6.68 - Movement speed increased by 5
6.67 - Repel Duration decreased from 5/10/15/20 duration to 6/8/10/12
6.67 - Repel Cooldown decreased from 20 to 14
6.67 - Repel Mana cost decreased from 60/70/80/90 to 50
6.57 - Lowered Omniknight's base movement speed by 5
6.55 - Decreased Guardian Angel AOE and duration a bit
6.50 - Changed Purification's damage type to Pure

Taken from: http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=395166


So let's have a look at him, by first looking at his stats.

Startdmg: 51-61 -> Decent. Nothing special. Good enough to lasthit properly
Starting Armor: 4.1 -> It's okay, at least he's no Doom or Alchemist
Strength 20 + 2.65 -> Pretty okay for a melee caster, makes him durable enough to do his job and not easy to focus down
Agility 15 + 1.75 -> Okay, so he doesn't get much armor and AS, but that's nothing he despereately needs
Intelligence 17 + 1.8 -> For being a caster it's a bit low, but there are more than enough items to cover his mana needs

Skillset:

Purification: Not only is this a 360 HP heal, it also damages surrounding targets, resulting not only in 360 dmg, but actually in a 720 hp swing as you heal your target at the same time, if you'd take a 1v1 fight for example. That's huge. Oh, and did I mention it only has a 10 sec CD and a nice 700 castrange? This skill is the saving grace for your xboct-like carry who's going in ballsdeep. The only downside of this skill is the quite high manacost of 160 on level 4. But as Omni naturally goes for some mana items, that isn't too much of a problem, especially if he isn't the only one getting mana replenishment support in his team.

Repel: 6/8/10/12 seconds of magic immunity for only 50 Mana. Unlike BKB it doesn't decrease the more you use it. With the recent nerfs of BKB - not being able to sell it anymore and the 6.78 nerf of it going down to 4 seconds duration with 50 sec CD. Repel has a mere CD of 14 seconds, so it has a downtime of 2 seconds in theory and an even longer duration than a freshly bought BKB as soon as Repel is leveled up to 4. While I make this skill sound ridiculously OP, and honestly speaking I personally even think it is on the verge of being so, it also has it's drawbacks. You remove some buffs of your target, including DD rune [but can be used offensively] but more importantly your very own GA. So you have to play accordingly, which the situation won't always let you. Also the low castrange of 500 is not the best, but acceptable. The worst part about this skill however is, that it can be purged with Diffusal blade.

Degen Aura: This skill is somewhat meh. It's only an 315 AoE, but it reduces not only move-, but also attack speed. When you're tanky enough in later stages of the game and you can allow yourself to be in midst of the fight and stick to the enemy carry it matters. Can be decent to chase down fleeing enemy heroes as well. Other than that it's his only skill, that's not as strong as the rest of his skillset.

Finally his ultimate, Guardian Angel: You and your team get pretty much no physical damage for the duration of this ultimate, which is 5/6/7 seconds on a 150 second CD, with the high CD being the worst part about the whole skill. Other than that it only affects allies within a 600 AoE around you upon activation [Recently introduced ASU makes this skill global and affect buildings, acting as a secondary even better glyph]. Well what else is there to say? It's freaking physical damage immunity, if you could only combine this with magical immunity, to become pretty much completely unvulnerable ... Oh wait, we do have it in the form of Repel!

Pros:
- Strong heal
- Durable
- Strong Teamfight
- Can potentially give anyone a free BKB throughout the whole game
- Ulti is an iWin button in teamfights
- Requires little farm to be useful [Arcanes is almost all you really need, if you use your mana carefully]
- Smashes his hamemr into your opponents face

Cons:
- Melee and thus limited in his laning
- Mana dependant
- Low ganking potential, if any
- Level/Exp dependant
- Slow casting animation
- Purge screws him pretty badly, which is worse these days with the popularity of SD [tho he's also banned quite a lot these days]

Omni's potential place in the current metagame:
In my eyes he's the answer to CK+Wisp. Anyone focussed by them will be healed up, so it's easy to tell which CK is the real one and which ones are Phantasm illusions, since they will inevitably be in melee range. Repel even prevents any initiation in a heads on fight to begin with. No Reality Rift, no Casino Knight 4 second stuns, no Tether stun and no blue balls in your carries face. Relocate is another thing. Sure you could argue ASU preventing global ganks, but with the CD discreptancy of Relocate vs. GA this is a bit too far fetched to me. GA also buys a lot of time to let the Phantasm illusions run out / getting them killed in any way.
The before mentioned nerfs to BKB make him just even more viable. Sure your opponents can get a Diffusal to counter you, but they'll run out of charges eventually, as you can always cast your spells again and again. Keep in mind, that you also force them to spend money on something, they probably rather want to spend on other things. A bit similar to an invis hero, forcing his enemy to buy detection.

So the only thing left is how play him:
I'd say playing him as a #2 in a solo mid position isn't too far off. Let's look what the popular mid heroes these days are: Beastmaster, Kunkka, Alche, Magnus, DK, NA, Slark, Juggernaut, Puck, QoP, Batrider. I probably forgot some of the heroes, which are just picked occasionally, however the point I'm trying to make is: Against who of those would Omni have serious problems? Imo only against QoP & Batrider. Puck can silence, but usually won't go for more levels into Wanning Rift before level 8. Other than that Puck obviously has the ranged advantage, tho Omni obviously face trouble against most ranged heroes, as would most other melee heroes.
Apart from that I don't see him having major problems against any of these heroes, especially in a melee vs melee scenario. In terms of gankability Omni can protect himself quite nicely.

And now the question: Why doesn't Omni see any play? I am trying to see it from every angle possible, yet I fail to see other reasons than his laning and Purge being a major shutdown for him. And as I mentioned earlier with the current trends of solo mid being mostly dominated by melee heroes, the laning trends are going towards his favor these days. So only the Purge problem still exists, but that can't be it.

So I'm done for now with this self-reflection / rant / prediction of next top Hero thingy I just wrote. What you guys think? Am I just so off, what's the deal with that holy fella?

#E: Btw, I'm posting this here, as this imo is the only place to have a decent quality discussion of any DotA related forum.


From my personnal experience:

Mid :

If i lane mid as omni vs a good player i can at most get even, the only way to get kills is that if ur ennemy is melee and think he can burst u down before u cast ur purification and get a lucky heal in his face.

U mentioned to controll runes u would use purification to clear the wave, u agree to the fact that purification is 160 mana, but that is way too much for a hero with such a low int start and relatively low gain, bottles gives if u manage to snag the rune 75 mana X 3 = 225 mana, so u can at most with a full bottle and full mana pool do 3 purification, u simply get outclassed by alot of ranged heros, mag is a melee mid but his shock cost 90 mana, ta has a refraction for 90 mana that is more powerfull than a heal if used correctly ( and shes half melee half ranged), bm has a 120 nuke but the aoe is much larger and the damage is composite ( he also has the benefit of a powerfull aura and omni doesnt), Puck has a higher mana pool higher int gain (also range and multiple nukes and a way to dodge ur purification, i dont understand how u think u can win vs a puck) Od crushes u and laughs etc...., the only lane i could think of going well would be vs an axe mid.

Dual lane setup:

Goes really well or really bad depending on team comp and how pulls work, omni is a really strong support hero early on if u can land everything well but sometimes the games goes faster and u cant do shit.

Agressive tri:

Good if u have a blink initiator or some chains stunts as the ennemy will blow all their spells on one hero also and u can reverse that with a purification, its hard to play but can work

Works if u play the farmer in the lane or not, obviously its much easier if u get all the creeps as u can get all the mana items and substain yourself but this doesnt alwais happen in pubs so u gotta do what u gotta do.

Defensive trilane:
I think this is were omni shines most, his rightclick are not bad so lets say u have the third support pulling, ur number 1 gets initiated u stay back, come whack a bit wait for it puri, then if u can counterattack u can really destroy them.

Offlane:

I played alot of this.

I think this is really a nice position for omni, if ur not vs a bat or a ld i think u can do ok in this lane, if u start with stout shield u are survivable and u can abuse puri around lv 3 to get a nice advantage, omni also really snowballs with just his lvls and an arcane, while u may not alwais get the most gold in your lane, you can destroy teamfights if u stay back and have a good sense of what is dangerous for the next 5 sec and what can i do that will help me the most. This comes from playing the game a long time, i played this alot in wc3 and i can see teamfights much more clearly.

He also has the advantage as u mentionned of being really difficult to gank as a puri + running/tping will get you out of most troubles.

Also fast lv dictate alot a lv 5 omni isnt that dangerous a lv 7 one can fuck up your whole team.

I found that going for a arcane + forcestaff to work really well, force gives u that sometimes much needed burst into battle or escape right when puri wears off. Id like to mention that a bkb is also nice sometimes so u can bkb in fight and get ur spellshield on somebody more important but while hitting healing and ulting the shit.

I think the biggest obstacle to omni in comp scene is that he has shit base stat, shit relative gain all over and no easy way/clear way of getting xp unless the games snowballs in your favor
"Yeah, I send (hopefully) helpful PM's quite frequently. You don't have to warn/ban everything" - KadaverBB
Darkren
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1841 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-01 21:52:50
June 01 2013 21:50 GMT
#59518
On June 02 2013 06:17 Shaella wrote:
Gonna start playing DK more now, any suggestions on item builds?

I think the logical progression is like

Drums>Armlet>HotD>BKB>luxury

Not sure if Treads or Phase are better tho


if u are gearing towards that much farm and to farm hard like you said u should consider hotd before armlet to let u ancient stack with a neutral, that is how dk can get the biggest rice

I have a sort of bias towards phase boots, but i like in your face plays, if u intend to farm alot threads are probably better if u have ward coverage.

The +ias from threads is more important lategame than the + dmg from phase lategame
"Yeah, I send (hopefully) helpful PM's quite frequently. You don't have to warn/ban everything" - KadaverBB
Incze
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Romania2058 Posts
June 01 2013 22:26 GMT
#59519
Phase does allow you to kite/catch up better and move faster overall so it's your pick
Religion: Buckethead
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18919 Posts
June 01 2013 22:48 GMT
#59520
Ultimately, Omni is a hero thats relatively level hungry, has very little ganking utility, no stun, no easy way to harass other heroes and is somewhat weak mid, has no stun, has an ultimate that can be countered, has no stun, wants a decent amount of items...

He has a decent amount of utility though, he's can fit into lineups.
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