EPTGeneral Discussion - Page 2732
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On May 04 2013 06:56 Kipsate wrote: Why are people even comparing Orchid and Desolator. You get the Orchid for the Silence, not for the damage or the damage amplification part. That's vastly oversimplifying it, seeing as for Orchid's silence to be compelling compared to other item actives in that price range, you have to be making use of it's ganking/solo-killing potential as an item, particularly on a hero like Naix for whom the mana stats are largely superfluous. I don't think "they have a Storm/QoP/Puck" is on its own enough of a compelling reason to buy Orchid if you're going straight into teamfights and not making use of the item's usefulness for ganking/solo-killing at all. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On May 04 2013 07:00 TheYango wrote: That's vastly oversimplifying it, seeing as for Orchid's silence to be compelling compared to other item actives in that price range, you have to be making use of it's ganking/solo-killing potential as an item, particularly on a hero like Naix for whom the mana stats are largely superfluous. I don't think "they have a Storm/QoP/Puck" is on its own enough of a compelling reason to buy Orchid if you're going straight into teamfights and not making use of the item's usefulness for ganking/solo-killing at all. I disagree with this. You can buy S+Y for the same price and you don't need to justify its price by ganking and solo killing. S+Y literally gives nothing to your team and its usefulness on naix itself is approximately equivalent. Obviously their uses are different, but their costs are generally the same. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On May 04 2013 07:00 TheYango wrote: That's vastly oversimplifying it, seeing as for Orchid's silence to be compelling compared to other item actives in that price range, you have to be making use of it's ganking/solo-killing potential as an item, particularly on a hero like Naix for whom the mana stats are largely superfluous. I don't think "they have a Storm/QoP/Puck" is on its own enough of a compelling reason to buy Orchid if you're going straight into teamfights and not making use of the item's usefulness for ganking/solo-killing at all. Well, in my opinion, maybe i'm wrong about this, but I think orchid can have nearly the same effect in locking down these kind of heroes in fights that are completely dependent on timely spell castings (ie, storm spirit jumping around in fights or puck getting a silence off...if you are quick enough) as a sheep stick until a BKB is up. Obviously, its up to the discretion of the Naix player whether or not its worth picking up orchid before a BKB becomes relevant and if they can take considerable advantage in the game with it, but I don't see how its not effective in a teamfight? On May 04 2013 07:00 TheYango wrote: Show nested quote + That's vastly oversimplifying it, seeing as for Orchid's silence to be compelling compared to other item actives in that price range, you have to be making use of it's ganking/solo-killing potential as an item, particularly on a hero like Naix for whom the mana stats are largely superfluous. I don't think "they have a Storm/QoP/Puck" is on its own enough of a compelling reason to buy Orchid if you're going straight into teamfights and not making use of the item's usefulness for ganking/solo-killing at all. I disagree with this. You can buy S+Y for the same price and you don't need to justify its price by ganking and solo killing. S+Y literally gives nothing to your team and its usefulness on naix itself is approximately equivalent. Obviously their uses are different, but their costs are generally the same. I also disagree with this - but to keep it short, sometimes providing damage in a teamfight is utility. Naix is vulnerable to kiting / mobility hinderers - S&Y is a really solid way to deal with this. If he is kited well, he eventually becomes an empty slot. 90% of my Naix games, I'll build S&Y or a Basher after armlet. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On May 04 2013 07:03 wherebugsgo wrote: You can buy S+Y for the same price and you don't need to justify its price by ganking and solo killing. S+Y literally gives nothing to your team and its usefulness on naix itself is approximately equivalent. Obviously their uses are different, but their costs are generally the same. "Usefulness on Naix itself is approximately equivalent" what? Movement speed is one of the best teamfight stats for Naix due to the hero's lack of an engagement skill. It's why "racecar" Naix even became so successful in the first place and why S&Y is compelling on the hero. It gives roughly equivalent damage stats, but also gives 300 HP and a little over 2 armor and a very critical 12% MS. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On May 04 2013 07:03 Comeh wrote: Well, in my opinion, maybe i'm wrong about this, but I think orchid can have nearly the same effect in locking down these kind of heroes in fights that are completely dependent on timely spell castings (ie, storm spirit jumping around in fights or puck getting a silence off...if you are quick enough) as a sheep stick until a BKB is up. Obviously, its up to the discretion of the Naix player whether or not its worth picking up orchid before a BKB becomes relevant and if they can take considerable advantage in the game with it, but I don't see how its not effective in a teamfight? I also disagree with this - but to keep it short, sometimes providing damage in a teamfight is utility. Naix is vulnerable to kiting / mobility hinderers - S&Y is a really solid way to deal with this. you can argue that orchid is a great way to deal with that too. You sacrifice the maim chance and the 12% movespeed and health but you gain damage and the silence effect. If you're getting disabled, if you can silence the disabler then it doesn't matter how fast you're moving. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On May 04 2013 07:03 wherebugsgo wrote: I disagree with this. You can buy S+Y for the same price and you don't need to justify its price by ganking and solo killing. S+Y literally gives nothing to your team and its usefulness on naix itself is approximately equivalent. Obviously their uses are different, but their costs are generally the same. S + Y is more than just stats. With the other pieces around it like phase boots and drums you get a shit ton of movement speed out of it. It's better for farming, getting around the map, and its utility in a team fight can't be as easily seen as an orchid, but it's there in that you can chase down targets and maim. Its benefits for just naix in particular is much greater than an orchid. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On May 04 2013 07:07 wherebugsgo wrote: You sacrifice the maim chance and the 12% movespeed and health but you gain damage and the silence effect. If you're getting disabled, if you can silence the disabler then it doesn't matter how fast you're moving. That happens in small fights, but in 5v5 fights, it's more likely the opposite is true--that you silenced someone with a disable, but it doesn't matter because someone else has a different spell for you. There's not going to be just 1 disabler and 4 other heroes who do nothing. It's more likely the case that 3-4 heroes have relevant disables. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On May 04 2013 07:07 Itsmedudeman wrote: S + Y is more than just stats. With the other pieces around it like phase boots and drums you get a shit ton of movement speed out of it. It's better for farming, getting around the map, and its utility in a team fight can't be as easily seen as an orchid, but it's there in that you can chase down targets and maim. Its benefits for just naix in particular is much greater than an orchid. I agree that the movespeed is good, and that its use is different. In a fight overall though I think their effects are approximately equivalent. You get kited less with faster movespeed but you have to face less disables/don't have to deal with people using spells to get away from you if you have the silence. You also get more damage with orchid. For 4100 g you have a choice between those 3 items and when picking among the 3 I think orchid is overlooked a bit too often. | ||
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On May 04 2013 07:07 wherebugsgo wrote: you can argue that orchid is a great way to deal with that too. You sacrifice the maim chance and the 12% movespeed and health but you gain damage and the silence effect. If you're getting disabled, if you can silence the disabler then it doesn't matter how fast you're moving. More than anything, it depends on the game / situation more than the build. I think Orchid has situations where it can be a good pickup. I can also think of a lot of times where there is a better choice. Item build discussions when its situational are usually a little silly once we map out the fact that in some situations, some items are better than others. A good carry player (any position) will critically analyze the game they are in, recognize what item will be most effective when it is done building and map out how the game will be played in the following 10 minutes. On May 04 2013 07:07 TheYango wrote: That happens in small fights, but in 5v5 fights, it's more likely the opposite is true--that you silenced someone with a disable, but it doesn't matter because someone else has a different spell for you. There's not going to be just 1 disabler and 4 other heroes who do nothing. It's more likely the case that 3-4 heroes have relevant disables. Alright - imagine a situation where storm spirit jumps in and pulls a hero away. You throw down a silence on SS, and he's dumb and doesn't have a BKB. You've effectively made the fight 5v4 for 6 seconds. Are there other disables? Probably, but you've taken out one of their key cores during the fight. Again, not saying its the best item choice always, but that silence can win you the teamfight. Not always, but it can be a factor. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On May 04 2013 07:07 wherebugsgo wrote: you can argue that orchid is a great way to deal with that too. You sacrifice the maim chance and the 12% movespeed and health but you gain damage and the silence effect. If you're getting disabled, if you can silence the disabler then it doesn't matter how fast you're moving. Who's going to disable you? There's magnus, bane, batrider, all which go through the magic immunity effect, but it's much harder to get a good orchid effect off on those heroes than it seems. Maybe if you're gonna naix bomb with an initiator. Again, situational. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On May 04 2013 07:10 Itsmedudeman wrote: Who's going to disable you? There's magnus, bane, batrider, all which go through the magic immunity effect, but it's much harder to get a good orchid effect off on those heroes than it seems. Maybe if you're gonna naix bomb with an initiator. Again, situational. At least personally, when I play naix against any of these heroes, I would get orchid over deso/S+Y most of the time. I'd rather get S+Y against teams with primarily physical damage. For example, if I'm up against heroes like TA, Lycan, Sylla, etc. e: obviously it's not a hard and fast rule, highly situational depending on the enemy heroes | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On May 04 2013 07:09 Comeh wrote: Alright - imagine a situation where storm spirit jumps in and pulls a hero away. You throw down a silence on SS, and he's dumb and doesn't have a BKB. You've effectively made the fight 5v4 for 6 seconds. Are there other disables? Probably, but you've taken out one of their key cores during the fight. Again, not saying its the best item choice always, but that silence can win you the teamfight. Not always, but it can be a factor. That begs the question of why Storm would engage a fight like that when you have an Orchid and he doesn't have BKB. Its not like Naix builds anything else with Oblivion Staves, so you're not going to suddenly have a surprise Orchid in a fight. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On May 04 2013 07:12 TheYango wrote: That begs the question of why Storm would engage a fight like that when you have an Orchid and he doesn't have BKB. Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying. On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote: The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. We've moved past that - we are talking about the utility that an orchid can provide through the game. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote: The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. the point is that it does-if it has similar damage dealing ability AND it has utility, there is literally no reason to ever choose the pure damage item. The more interesting comparison is S+Y and orchid, because both items have clear situations in which one is better than the other, and they are also almost identical in cost and buildup. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On May 04 2013 07:14 wherebugsgo wrote: the point is that it does-if it has similar damage dealing ability AND it has utility, there is literally no reason to ever choose the pure damage item. The more interesting comparison is S+Y and orchid, because both items have clear situations in which one is better than the other, and they are also almost identical in cost and buildup. It doesn't have similar damage dealing ability. On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote: Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying. We've moved past that - we are talking about the utility that an orchid can provide through the game. It seems like we haven't. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote: Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying. Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational". I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items. Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does). EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On May 04 2013 07:15 SKC wrote: It doesn't have similar damage dealing ability. Seems we haven't. well, you should probably source your statement then. It's hard to strictly mathematically compare the two when one only amplifies physical damage and the other amplifies all damage, with the amplifications being of different magnitudes. On a rough comparison they come out equal because of this difference. We can come up with arbitrary numbers that will make one item look better than the other, but the only situation in which I would rather take deso over orchid is if my team has 5 carries (and in that situation it might still be better to go orchid, since we'd probably be severely lacking disables, and there'd be a better deso carrier most likely anyway) | ||
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