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What is stopping everyone from getting both Deso and S&Y? You can probably squeeze in Orchid too. Why argue over it? The only core item I really think should always be in any build is Armlet, and even then, some people skip it too.
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On May 04 2013 07:44 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:41 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:39 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:18 wherebugsgo wrote:
[quote]
well, you should probably source your statement then.
It's hard to strictly mathematically compare the two when one only amplifies physical damage and the other amplifies all damage, with the amplifications being of different magnitudes. On a rough comparison they come out equal because of this difference.
We can come up with arbitrary numbers that will make one item look better than the other, but the only situation in which I would rather take deso over orchid is if my team has 5 carries (and in that situation it might still be better to go orchid, since we'd probably be severely lacking disables, and there'd be a better deso carrier most likely anyway) They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that. and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise. You see the problem with this? What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team? Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes. On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational". I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items. Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does). EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. Two things here: halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost. The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid. You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason. Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know  Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. My point is you should all shut up because you're a bunch of idiots going around in circles. Deso has its uses, Orchid has its uses as well. They don't overlap in how you use them or what you're going for when you build them. Both are situational and often times worse than going SnY which I think everyone has agreed, should be standard on him. How has this not been clear for 2+ pages now? Well, just as an experiment, can you explain what uses deso on naix actually has? He certainly isn't a pushing carry, and he's not like BH where the deso would be really useful for an initiating crit or something like that. Why is deso better than other items on naix? In what situations? I can't think of very many, if any at all. http://dotabuff.com/players/90892734/matches?hero=lifestealer&game_mode=&match_type=realBurning builds Deso in pubs, if you think pub builds matter at all.
well, he builds orchid too. lol.
On May 04 2013 07:44 LeLoup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:41 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:39 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:18 wherebugsgo wrote:
[quote]
well, you should probably source your statement then.
It's hard to strictly mathematically compare the two when one only amplifies physical damage and the other amplifies all damage, with the amplifications being of different magnitudes. On a rough comparison they come out equal because of this difference.
We can come up with arbitrary numbers that will make one item look better than the other, but the only situation in which I would rather take deso over orchid is if my team has 5 carries (and in that situation it might still be better to go orchid, since we'd probably be severely lacking disables, and there'd be a better deso carrier most likely anyway) They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that. and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise. You see the problem with this? What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team? Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes. On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational". I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items. Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does). EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. Two things here: halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost. The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid. You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason. Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. My point is you should all shut up because you're a bunch of idiots going around in circles. Deso has its uses, Orchid has its uses as well. They don't overlap in how you use them or what you're going for when you build them. Both are situational and often times worse than going SnY which I think everyone has agreed, should be standard on him. How has this not been clear for 2+ pages now? Well, just as an experiment, can you explain what uses deso on naix actually has? He certainly isn't a pushing carry, and he's not like BH where the deso would be really useful for an initiating crit or something like that. Why is deso better than other items on naix? In what situations? I can't think of very many, if any at all. You said it yourself, Deso is a pushing item, it allows you to quickly take towers getting map control faster. That is the reason to get it. If you're running Naix in a lineup with a heavy pushing strat you can use the desolator to grab key towers (mid/bot tier 2) and then grab a quick rosh using the desolator buff so that when you push T3 early, you have the desolator damage and the aegis making your push that much harder to defend against and allowing you to get more damage on the tower than normal. Also if you ever have a storm on your team. EDIT: and even then that is just deso over orchid, not over SnY
right, but on a pushing team you almost always have someone else who is better off building deso than you. Any team that has furion, or TA, or weaver, for example.
I would agree that if you really want pushing power and you have someone else who will build an orchid, it might be better to go for deso, but I think if you're choosing to forego AC over deso in that case that's also a mistake-AC is undoubtedly the best item for that.
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On May 04 2013 07:48 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:44 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:41 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:39 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:
[quote]
They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that. and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise. You see the problem with this? What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team? Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes. On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:
[quote]
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational".
I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items.
Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does).
EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. Two things here: halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost. The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid. You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason. Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. My point is you should all shut up because you're a bunch of idiots going around in circles. Deso has its uses, Orchid has its uses as well. They don't overlap in how you use them or what you're going for when you build them. Both are situational and often times worse than going SnY which I think everyone has agreed, should be standard on him. How has this not been clear for 2+ pages now? Well, just as an experiment, can you explain what uses deso on naix actually has? He certainly isn't a pushing carry, and he's not like BH where the deso would be really useful for an initiating crit or something like that. Why is deso better than other items on naix? In what situations? I can't think of very many, if any at all. http://dotabuff.com/players/90892734/matches?hero=lifestealer&game_mode=&match_type=realBurning builds Deso in pubs, if you think pub builds matter at all. well, he builds orchid too. lol.
You were the one saying one of those items should never be built.
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On May 04 2013 07:49 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:48 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:44 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:41 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:39 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:
[quote]
and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise.
You see the problem with this?
What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team?
Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes.
[quote]
Two things here:
halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost.
The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid.
You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason.
Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. My point is you should all shut up because you're a bunch of idiots going around in circles. Deso has its uses, Orchid has its uses as well. They don't overlap in how you use them or what you're going for when you build them. Both are situational and often times worse than going SnY which I think everyone has agreed, should be standard on him. How has this not been clear for 2+ pages now? Well, just as an experiment, can you explain what uses deso on naix actually has? He certainly isn't a pushing carry, and he's not like BH where the deso would be really useful for an initiating crit or something like that. Why is deso better than other items on naix? In what situations? I can't think of very many, if any at all. http://dotabuff.com/players/90892734/matches?hero=lifestealer&game_mode=&match_type=realBurning builds Deso in pubs, if you think pub builds matter at all. well, he builds orchid too. lol. You were the one saying one of those items should never be built.
and I do think that Burning's build is bad
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I think that settles it. You can't argue with stats. Perhaps we should make a graph.
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On May 04 2013 07:51 SKC wrote:I think that settles it. You can't argue with stats. Perhaps we should make a graph.
55.82% winrate on armlet, guess we should be building rapier rapier rapier eblade now
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On May 04 2013 07:48 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:44 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:41 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:39 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:
[quote]
They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that. and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise. You see the problem with this? What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team? Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes. On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:
[quote]
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational".
I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items.
Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does).
EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. Two things here: halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost. The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid. You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason. Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. My point is you should all shut up because you're a bunch of idiots going around in circles. Deso has its uses, Orchid has its uses as well. They don't overlap in how you use them or what you're going for when you build them. Both are situational and often times worse than going SnY which I think everyone has agreed, should be standard on him. How has this not been clear for 2+ pages now? Well, just as an experiment, can you explain what uses deso on naix actually has? He certainly isn't a pushing carry, and he's not like BH where the deso would be really useful for an initiating crit or something like that. Why is deso better than other items on naix? In what situations? I can't think of very many, if any at all. http://dotabuff.com/players/90892734/matches?hero=lifestealer&game_mode=&match_type=realBurning builds Deso in pubs, if you think pub builds matter at all. well, he builds orchid too. lol. Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:44 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:41 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:39 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:
[quote]
They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that. and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise. You see the problem with this? What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team? Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes. On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:
[quote]
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational".
I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items.
Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does).
EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. Two things here: halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost. The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid. You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason. Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. My point is you should all shut up because you're a bunch of idiots going around in circles. Deso has its uses, Orchid has its uses as well. They don't overlap in how you use them or what you're going for when you build them. Both are situational and often times worse than going SnY which I think everyone has agreed, should be standard on him. How has this not been clear for 2+ pages now? Well, just as an experiment, can you explain what uses deso on naix actually has? He certainly isn't a pushing carry, and he's not like BH where the deso would be really useful for an initiating crit or something like that. Why is deso better than other items on naix? In what situations? I can't think of very many, if any at all. You said it yourself, Deso is a pushing item, it allows you to quickly take towers getting map control faster. That is the reason to get it. If you're running Naix in a lineup with a heavy pushing strat you can use the desolator to grab key towers (mid/bot tier 2) and then grab a quick rosh using the desolator buff so that when you push T3 early, you have the desolator damage and the aegis making your push that much harder to defend against and allowing you to get more damage on the tower than normal. Also if you ever have a storm on your team. EDIT: and even then that is just deso over orchid, not over SnY right, but on a pushing team you almost always have someone else who is better off building deso than you. Any team that has furion, or TA, or weaver, for example. I would agree that if you really want pushing power and you have someone else who will build an orchid, it might be better to go for deso, but I think if you're choosing to forego AC over deso in that case that's also a mistake-AC is undoubtedly the best item for that.
But that is what it is about. You're not always going to have a weaver and how you play with one or a Furion is not the same as how you play without them. Not to mention that Furion and Weaver are both better split pushers than Naix so you won't play them the same way. Naix is better in 5v5s than those two, and you're still getting the utility of the deso at that point with the teamfight that is brought out by Naix. And you get it over AC if you don't have anyone else getting it obviously.
The lineup I have in mind is something along the lines of a team that has clock/puck/brew and a chen/enchantress focused on winning after grabbing the second aegis.
EDIT: Thinking about it as well, Ogre Magi makes for a hilariously great second support in this situation.
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On May 04 2013 07:53 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:51 SKC wrote:I think that settles it. You can't argue with stats. Perhaps we should make a graph. 55.82% winrate on armlet, guess we should be building rapier rapier rapier eblade now
negative.
armlet has 1.5 million games played. The more games played the more the winrate should normalize. Desolater has a higher win rate with 15x more games played than orchid.
deso > orchid.
pub dota > pro players > theory craft.
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87% with Dagon 5. We are clearly having the wrong argument.
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On May 04 2013 07:54 LeLoup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:48 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:44 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:41 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:39 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:
[quote]
and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise.
You see the problem with this?
What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team?
Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes.
[quote]
Two things here:
halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost.
The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid.
You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason.
Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. My point is you should all shut up because you're a bunch of idiots going around in circles. Deso has its uses, Orchid has its uses as well. They don't overlap in how you use them or what you're going for when you build them. Both are situational and often times worse than going SnY which I think everyone has agreed, should be standard on him. How has this not been clear for 2+ pages now? Well, just as an experiment, can you explain what uses deso on naix actually has? He certainly isn't a pushing carry, and he's not like BH where the deso would be really useful for an initiating crit or something like that. Why is deso better than other items on naix? In what situations? I can't think of very many, if any at all. http://dotabuff.com/players/90892734/matches?hero=lifestealer&game_mode=&match_type=realBurning builds Deso in pubs, if you think pub builds matter at all. well, he builds orchid too. lol. On May 04 2013 07:44 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:41 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:39 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:
[quote]
and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise.
You see the problem with this?
What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team?
Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes.
[quote]
Two things here:
halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost.
The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid.
You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason.
Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. My point is you should all shut up because you're a bunch of idiots going around in circles. Deso has its uses, Orchid has its uses as well. They don't overlap in how you use them or what you're going for when you build them. Both are situational and often times worse than going SnY which I think everyone has agreed, should be standard on him. How has this not been clear for 2+ pages now? Well, just as an experiment, can you explain what uses deso on naix actually has? He certainly isn't a pushing carry, and he's not like BH where the deso would be really useful for an initiating crit or something like that. Why is deso better than other items on naix? In what situations? I can't think of very many, if any at all. You said it yourself, Deso is a pushing item, it allows you to quickly take towers getting map control faster. That is the reason to get it. If you're running Naix in a lineup with a heavy pushing strat you can use the desolator to grab key towers (mid/bot tier 2) and then grab a quick rosh using the desolator buff so that when you push T3 early, you have the desolator damage and the aegis making your push that much harder to defend against and allowing you to get more damage on the tower than normal. Also if you ever have a storm on your team. EDIT: and even then that is just deso over orchid, not over SnY right, but on a pushing team you almost always have someone else who is better off building deso than you. Any team that has furion, or TA, or weaver, for example. I would agree that if you really want pushing power and you have someone else who will build an orchid, it might be better to go for deso, but I think if you're choosing to forego AC over deso in that case that's also a mistake-AC is undoubtedly the best item for that. But that is what it is about. You're not always going to have a weaver and how you play with one or a Furion is not the same as how you play without them. Not to mention that Furion and Weaver are both better split pushers than Naix so you won't play them the same way. Naix is better in 5v5s than those two, and you're still getting the utility of the deso at that point with the teamfight that is brought out by Naix. And you get it over AC if you don't have anyone else getting it obviously. The lineup I have in mind is something along the lines of a team that has clock/puck/brew and a chen/enchantress focused on winning after grabbing the second aegis.
right so in that situation the question would not be deso vs orchid but rather deso vs AC.
Why pick deso in that case? Because it's ~1k gold cheaper? Hardly a compelling reason.
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On May 04 2013 07:55 SKC wrote:
87% with Dagon 5. We are clearly having the wrong argument.
eblade, dagon, rapier.
ez game, ez life.
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On May 04 2013 07:55 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:53 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:51 SKC wrote:I think that settles it. You can't argue with stats. Perhaps we should make a graph. 55.82% winrate on armlet, guess we should be building rapier rapier rapier eblade now negative. armlet has 1.5 million games played. The more games played the more the winrate should normalize. Desolater has a higher win rate with 15x more games played than orchid. deso > orchid. pub dota > pro players > theory craft.
I assume this means you are an advocate of battlefury over drums on gondar, since bfury has a higher winrate+more games :p
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On May 04 2013 08:00 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:55 crms wrote:On May 04 2013 07:53 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:51 SKC wrote:I think that settles it. You can't argue with stats. Perhaps we should make a graph. 55.82% winrate on armlet, guess we should be building rapier rapier rapier eblade now negative. armlet has 1.5 million games played. The more games played the more the winrate should normalize. Desolater has a higher win rate with 15x more games played than orchid. deso > orchid. pub dota > pro players > theory craft. I assume this means you are an advocate of battlefury over drums on gondar, since bfury has a higher winrate+more games :p
of course.
pub dota knows all! 
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On May 04 2013 07:55 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:54 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:48 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:44 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:41 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:39 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:
[quote]
Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. My point is you should all shut up because you're a bunch of idiots going around in circles. Deso has its uses, Orchid has its uses as well. They don't overlap in how you use them or what you're going for when you build them. Both are situational and often times worse than going SnY which I think everyone has agreed, should be standard on him. How has this not been clear for 2+ pages now? Well, just as an experiment, can you explain what uses deso on naix actually has? He certainly isn't a pushing carry, and he's not like BH where the deso would be really useful for an initiating crit or something like that. Why is deso better than other items on naix? In what situations? I can't think of very many, if any at all. http://dotabuff.com/players/90892734/matches?hero=lifestealer&game_mode=&match_type=realBurning builds Deso in pubs, if you think pub builds matter at all. well, he builds orchid too. lol. On May 04 2013 07:44 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:41 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:39 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:
[quote]
Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. My point is you should all shut up because you're a bunch of idiots going around in circles. Deso has its uses, Orchid has its uses as well. They don't overlap in how you use them or what you're going for when you build them. Both are situational and often times worse than going SnY which I think everyone has agreed, should be standard on him. How has this not been clear for 2+ pages now? Well, just as an experiment, can you explain what uses deso on naix actually has? He certainly isn't a pushing carry, and he's not like BH where the deso would be really useful for an initiating crit or something like that. Why is deso better than other items on naix? In what situations? I can't think of very many, if any at all. You said it yourself, Deso is a pushing item, it allows you to quickly take towers getting map control faster. That is the reason to get it. If you're running Naix in a lineup with a heavy pushing strat you can use the desolator to grab key towers (mid/bot tier 2) and then grab a quick rosh using the desolator buff so that when you push T3 early, you have the desolator damage and the aegis making your push that much harder to defend against and allowing you to get more damage on the tower than normal. Also if you ever have a storm on your team. EDIT: and even then that is just deso over orchid, not over SnY right, but on a pushing team you almost always have someone else who is better off building deso than you. Any team that has furion, or TA, or weaver, for example. I would agree that if you really want pushing power and you have someone else who will build an orchid, it might be better to go for deso, but I think if you're choosing to forego AC over deso in that case that's also a mistake-AC is undoubtedly the best item for that. But that is what it is about. You're not always going to have a weaver and how you play with one or a Furion is not the same as how you play without them. Not to mention that Furion and Weaver are both better split pushers than Naix so you won't play them the same way. Naix is better in 5v5s than those two, and you're still getting the utility of the deso at that point with the teamfight that is brought out by Naix. And you get it over AC if you don't have anyone else getting it obviously. The lineup I have in mind is something along the lines of a team that has clock/puck/brew and a chen/enchantress focused on winning after grabbing the second aegis. right so in that situation the question would not be deso vs orchid but rather deso vs AC. Why pick deso in that case? Because it's ~1k gold cheaper? Hardly a compelling reason.
I'm honestly starting to lack words for this....
You realize you're comparing a 35 attack speed item with a -5 aura to enemy units that is built to live longer to an item that gives +60 damage and -6 armor to everything you hit? You go for the damage item when you need damage, you go for the survivability when you need to live. If you're pushing T3 at that timing, you need damage, not survivability because you're looking to end the game fast.
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On May 03 2013 17:32 Adrian_mx wrote:
Can anyone send me a bunch of good well played DotA 2 games?
I want to watch them before I go to bed rather than watching tv!
this.
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On May 04 2013 08:02 LeLoup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:55 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:54 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:48 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:44 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:41 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:39 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:[quote] Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. My point is you should all shut up because you're a bunch of idiots going around in circles. Deso has its uses, Orchid has its uses as well. They don't overlap in how you use them or what you're going for when you build them. Both are situational and often times worse than going SnY which I think everyone has agreed, should be standard on him. How has this not been clear for 2+ pages now? Well, just as an experiment, can you explain what uses deso on naix actually has? He certainly isn't a pushing carry, and he's not like BH where the deso would be really useful for an initiating crit or something like that. Why is deso better than other items on naix? In what situations? I can't think of very many, if any at all. http://dotabuff.com/players/90892734/matches?hero=lifestealer&game_mode=&match_type=realBurning builds Deso in pubs, if you think pub builds matter at all. well, he builds orchid too. lol. On May 04 2013 07:44 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:41 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:39 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:[quote] Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. My point is you should all shut up because you're a bunch of idiots going around in circles. Deso has its uses, Orchid has its uses as well. They don't overlap in how you use them or what you're going for when you build them. Both are situational and often times worse than going SnY which I think everyone has agreed, should be standard on him. How has this not been clear for 2+ pages now? Well, just as an experiment, can you explain what uses deso on naix actually has? He certainly isn't a pushing carry, and he's not like BH where the deso would be really useful for an initiating crit or something like that. Why is deso better than other items on naix? In what situations? I can't think of very many, if any at all. You said it yourself, Deso is a pushing item, it allows you to quickly take towers getting map control faster. That is the reason to get it. If you're running Naix in a lineup with a heavy pushing strat you can use the desolator to grab key towers (mid/bot tier 2) and then grab a quick rosh using the desolator buff so that when you push T3 early, you have the desolator damage and the aegis making your push that much harder to defend against and allowing you to get more damage on the tower than normal. Also if you ever have a storm on your team. EDIT: and even then that is just deso over orchid, not over SnY right, but on a pushing team you almost always have someone else who is better off building deso than you. Any team that has furion, or TA, or weaver, for example. I would agree that if you really want pushing power and you have someone else who will build an orchid, it might be better to go for deso, but I think if you're choosing to forego AC over deso in that case that's also a mistake-AC is undoubtedly the best item for that. But that is what it is about. You're not always going to have a weaver and how you play with one or a Furion is not the same as how you play without them. Not to mention that Furion and Weaver are both better split pushers than Naix so you won't play them the same way. Naix is better in 5v5s than those two, and you're still getting the utility of the deso at that point with the teamfight that is brought out by Naix. And you get it over AC if you don't have anyone else getting it obviously. The lineup I have in mind is something along the lines of a team that has clock/puck/brew and a chen/enchantress focused on winning after grabbing the second aegis. right so in that situation the question would not be deso vs orchid but rather deso vs AC. Why pick deso in that case? Because it's ~1k gold cheaper? Hardly a compelling reason. I'm honestly starting to lack words for this.... You realize you're comparing a 35 attack speed item with a -5 aura to enemy units that is built to live longer to an item that gives +60 damage and -6 armor to everything you hit? You go for the damage item when you need damage, you go for the survivability when you need to live. If you're pushing T3 at that timing, you need damage, not survivability because you're looking to end the game fast.
Well, a major part of Lifestealer is his lifesteal passive, which will take effect with higher attack speed. Plus attacking T3 having a -armour aura would really help to push, not to mention benefit the entire team.
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On May 04 2013 08:02 LeLoup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:55 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:54 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:48 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:44 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:41 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:39 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:[quote] Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. My point is you should all shut up because you're a bunch of idiots going around in circles. Deso has its uses, Orchid has its uses as well. They don't overlap in how you use them or what you're going for when you build them. Both are situational and often times worse than going SnY which I think everyone has agreed, should be standard on him. How has this not been clear for 2+ pages now? Well, just as an experiment, can you explain what uses deso on naix actually has? He certainly isn't a pushing carry, and he's not like BH where the deso would be really useful for an initiating crit or something like that. Why is deso better than other items on naix? In what situations? I can't think of very many, if any at all. http://dotabuff.com/players/90892734/matches?hero=lifestealer&game_mode=&match_type=realBurning builds Deso in pubs, if you think pub builds matter at all. well, he builds orchid too. lol. On May 04 2013 07:44 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:41 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:39 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:[quote] Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. My point is you should all shut up because you're a bunch of idiots going around in circles. Deso has its uses, Orchid has its uses as well. They don't overlap in how you use them or what you're going for when you build them. Both are situational and often times worse than going SnY which I think everyone has agreed, should be standard on him. How has this not been clear for 2+ pages now? Well, just as an experiment, can you explain what uses deso on naix actually has? He certainly isn't a pushing carry, and he's not like BH where the deso would be really useful for an initiating crit or something like that. Why is deso better than other items on naix? In what situations? I can't think of very many, if any at all. You said it yourself, Deso is a pushing item, it allows you to quickly take towers getting map control faster. That is the reason to get it. If you're running Naix in a lineup with a heavy pushing strat you can use the desolator to grab key towers (mid/bot tier 2) and then grab a quick rosh using the desolator buff so that when you push T3 early, you have the desolator damage and the aegis making your push that much harder to defend against and allowing you to get more damage on the tower than normal. Also if you ever have a storm on your team. EDIT: and even then that is just deso over orchid, not over SnY right, but on a pushing team you almost always have someone else who is better off building deso than you. Any team that has furion, or TA, or weaver, for example. I would agree that if you really want pushing power and you have someone else who will build an orchid, it might be better to go for deso, but I think if you're choosing to forego AC over deso in that case that's also a mistake-AC is undoubtedly the best item for that. But that is what it is about. You're not always going to have a weaver and how you play with one or a Furion is not the same as how you play without them. Not to mention that Furion and Weaver are both better split pushers than Naix so you won't play them the same way. Naix is better in 5v5s than those two, and you're still getting the utility of the deso at that point with the teamfight that is brought out by Naix. And you get it over AC if you don't have anyone else getting it obviously. The lineup I have in mind is something along the lines of a team that has clock/puck/brew and a chen/enchantress focused on winning after grabbing the second aegis. right so in that situation the question would not be deso vs orchid but rather deso vs AC. Why pick deso in that case? Because it's ~1k gold cheaper? Hardly a compelling reason. I'm honestly starting to lack words for this.... You realize you're comparing a 35 attack speed item with a -5 aura to enemy units that is built to live longer to an item that gives +60 damage and -6 armor to everything you hit? You go for the damage item when you need damage, you go for the survivability when you need to live. If you're pushing T3 at that timing, you need damage, not survivability because you're looking to end the game fast.
You're saying as a pushing item, deso is better than AC? Wat?
AC helps your creeps tank, it gives your entire team +AS, and the only difference in the minus armor aura is 1 between deso and AC (AC works on towers, btw) and the massive difference in that you just have to stand there for AC vs actually hit everything for deso
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
On May 04 2013 08:02 Adrian_mx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 17:32 Adrian_mx wrote:
Can anyone send me a bunch of good well played DotA 2 games?
I want to watch them before I go to bed rather than watching tv! this.
Search on Youtube for BeyondTheSummit or JoinDota, something along those lines.
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On May 04 2013 07:49 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:48 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:44 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:41 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:39 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:
[quote]
and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise.
You see the problem with this?
What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team?
Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes.
[quote]
Two things here:
halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost.
The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid.
You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason.
Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. My point is you should all shut up because you're a bunch of idiots going around in circles. Deso has its uses, Orchid has its uses as well. They don't overlap in how you use them or what you're going for when you build them. Both are situational and often times worse than going SnY which I think everyone has agreed, should be standard on him. How has this not been clear for 2+ pages now? Well, just as an experiment, can you explain what uses deso on naix actually has? He certainly isn't a pushing carry, and he's not like BH where the deso would be really useful for an initiating crit or something like that. Why is deso better than other items on naix? In what situations? I can't think of very many, if any at all. http://dotabuff.com/players/90892734/matches?hero=lifestealer&game_mode=&match_type=realBurning builds Deso in pubs, if you think pub builds matter at all. well, he builds orchid too. lol. You were the one saying one of those items should never be built.
guys, you need to learn to think critically when new things come out instead of blindly flaming a build. Kappa.
This thread is growing so fast after i went to bed its hard to catch up lol.... Sleep is so overated.
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EPT
