|
|
On May 04 2013 07:18 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:15 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. the point is that it does-if it has similar damage dealing ability AND it has utility, there is literally no reason to ever choose the pure damage item. The more interesting comparison is S+Y and orchid, because both items have clear situations in which one is better than the other, and they are also almost identical in cost and buildup. It doesn't have similar damage dealing ability. On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:09 Comeh wrote:
Alright - imagine a situation where storm spirit jumps in and pulls a hero away. You throw down a silence on SS, and he's dumb and doesn't have a BKB. You've effectively made the fight 5v4 for 6 seconds. Are there other disables? Probably, but you've taken out one of their key cores during the fight.
Again, not saying its the best item choice always, but that silence can win you the teamfight. Not always, but it can be a factor. That begs the question of why Storm would engage a fight like that when you have an Orchid and he doesn't have BKB. Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying. On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. We've moved past that - we are talking about the utility that an orchid can provide through the game. Seems we haven't. well, you should probably source your statement then. It's hard to strictly mathematically compare the two when one only amplifies physical damage and the other amplifies all damage, with the amplifications being of different magnitudes. On a rough comparison they come out equal because of this difference. We can come up with arbitrary numbers that will make one item look better than the other, but the only situation in which I would rather take deso over orchid is if my team has 5 carries (and in that situation it might still be better to go orchid, since we'd probably be severely lacking disables, and there'd be a better deso carrier most likely anyway)
They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. Resulting in less damage overall. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source for that.
|
On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational". I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items.
Personally, I think Naix has really solid fighting ability with every regard except mobility. His damage output is very good (and orchid doesn't hurt in this department - 30 damage 30 AS 30% increase - 25% res), he has a free BKB, a free AS increase, sustainability, and a way to semi-initiate / help focus down a hero. I never feel like I need flat damage on LS, as he doesn't lack that, but rather I feel like I need a way to lock down heroes in teamfights (basher / abyssal, I guess you could say Orchid here), or generally just good items with multipurposes (S&Y, AC).
Most Naix games I play, I get Phase (drums) armlet S&Y AC (unless a lot of magic issues or I really really feel like I need a heart) + another item.
Heavens Halberd is a pretty good item on him - but I wouldn't outright compare it to Orchid. Its the difference between locking down a carry vs locking down some spell caster, I suppose. it becomes of a decision of how the fight is going to work out, how you are prioritizing targeting and whatnot. The evasion is really nice though.
Edit:I probably wouldn't ever build Deso on Naix...There are very few situations where I feel like its an item I would prefer.
|
On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:18 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:15 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. the point is that it does-if it has similar damage dealing ability AND it has utility, there is literally no reason to ever choose the pure damage item. The more interesting comparison is S+Y and orchid, because both items have clear situations in which one is better than the other, and they are also almost identical in cost and buildup. It doesn't have similar damage dealing ability. On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:09 Comeh wrote:
Alright - imagine a situation where storm spirit jumps in and pulls a hero away. You throw down a silence on SS, and he's dumb and doesn't have a BKB. You've effectively made the fight 5v4 for 6 seconds. Are there other disables? Probably, but you've taken out one of their key cores during the fight.
Again, not saying its the best item choice always, but that silence can win you the teamfight. Not always, but it can be a factor. That begs the question of why Storm would engage a fight like that when you have an Orchid and he doesn't have BKB. Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying. On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. We've moved past that - we are talking about the utility that an orchid can provide through the game. Seems we haven't. well, you should probably source your statement then. It's hard to strictly mathematically compare the two when one only amplifies physical damage and the other amplifies all damage, with the amplifications being of different magnitudes. On a rough comparison they come out equal because of this difference. We can come up with arbitrary numbers that will make one item look better than the other, but the only situation in which I would rather take deso over orchid is if my team has 5 carries (and in that situation it might still be better to go orchid, since we'd probably be severely lacking disables, and there'd be a better deso carrier most likely anyway) They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that.
and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise.
You see the problem with this?
What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team?
Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes.
On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational". I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items. Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does). EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard.
Two things here:
halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost.
The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid.
You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason.
|
On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:
You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason.
Sorry i just really need to quote this. Bahaha.
|
United States47024 Posts
If your point was to say that Deso is built way more often than it should be, I agree with that, lol.
You could have just said that straight-up rather than making this roundabout argument with Orchid.
I'll point out that it's bought too often on a lot of other heroes as well, BH being one of them.
Deso on BH was compelling in the very specific scenario where Lothar's BH still worked, making his damage so high as to make the Deso -armor more compelling than other potential damage items.
|
On May 04 2013 07:28 TheYango wrote:
If your point was to say that Deso is built way more often than it should be, I agree with that, lol.
You could have just said that straight-up rather than making this roundabout argument with Orchid.
I think my original point was in response to what Aui said about people thinking critically about items.
My point was that if people actually thought critically about items, they wouldn't build deso instead of other items like Orchid or S+Y on lifestealer.
|
On May 04 2013 07:27 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:
You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason.
Sorry i just really need to quote this. Bahaha.
WWYYFD?
|
On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:18 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:15 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. the point is that it does-if it has similar damage dealing ability AND it has utility, there is literally no reason to ever choose the pure damage item. The more interesting comparison is S+Y and orchid, because both items have clear situations in which one is better than the other, and they are also almost identical in cost and buildup. It doesn't have similar damage dealing ability. On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:09 Comeh wrote:
Alright - imagine a situation where storm spirit jumps in and pulls a hero away. You throw down a silence on SS, and he's dumb and doesn't have a BKB. You've effectively made the fight 5v4 for 6 seconds. Are there other disables? Probably, but you've taken out one of their key cores during the fight.
Again, not saying its the best item choice always, but that silence can win you the teamfight. Not always, but it can be a factor. That begs the question of why Storm would engage a fight like that when you have an Orchid and he doesn't have BKB. Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying. On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. We've moved past that - we are talking about the utility that an orchid can provide through the game. Seems we haven't. well, you should probably source your statement then. It's hard to strictly mathematically compare the two when one only amplifies physical damage and the other amplifies all damage, with the amplifications being of different magnitudes. On a rough comparison they come out equal because of this difference. We can come up with arbitrary numbers that will make one item look better than the other, but the only situation in which I would rather take deso over orchid is if my team has 5 carries (and in that situation it might still be better to go orchid, since we'd probably be severely lacking disables, and there'd be a better deso carrier most likely anyway) They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that. and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise. You see the problem with this? What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team? Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes. Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational". I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items. Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does). EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. Two things here: halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost. The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid. You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason.
Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by the math posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it.
Saying people build Deso too often is very diferent from saying you should never build it because Orchid does the same damage and also has a silence.
|
On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:18 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:15 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. the point is that it does-if it has similar damage dealing ability AND it has utility, there is literally no reason to ever choose the pure damage item. The more interesting comparison is S+Y and orchid, because both items have clear situations in which one is better than the other, and they are also almost identical in cost and buildup. It doesn't have similar damage dealing ability. On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:09 Comeh wrote:
Alright - imagine a situation where storm spirit jumps in and pulls a hero away. You throw down a silence on SS, and he's dumb and doesn't have a BKB. You've effectively made the fight 5v4 for 6 seconds. Are there other disables? Probably, but you've taken out one of their key cores during the fight.
Again, not saying its the best item choice always, but that silence can win you the teamfight. Not always, but it can be a factor. That begs the question of why Storm would engage a fight like that when you have an Orchid and he doesn't have BKB. Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying. On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. We've moved past that - we are talking about the utility that an orchid can provide through the game. Seems we haven't. well, you should probably source your statement then. It's hard to strictly mathematically compare the two when one only amplifies physical damage and the other amplifies all damage, with the amplifications being of different magnitudes. On a rough comparison they come out equal because of this difference. We can come up with arbitrary numbers that will make one item look better than the other, but the only situation in which I would rather take deso over orchid is if my team has 5 carries (and in that situation it might still be better to go orchid, since we'd probably be severely lacking disables, and there'd be a better deso carrier most likely anyway) They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that. and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise. You see the problem with this? What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team? Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes. On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational". I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items. Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does). EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. Two things here: halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost. The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid. You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason. Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it.
Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS.
Minor detail...but...you know 
|
On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:18 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:15 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. the point is that it does-if it has similar damage dealing ability AND it has utility, there is literally no reason to ever choose the pure damage item. The more interesting comparison is S+Y and orchid, because both items have clear situations in which one is better than the other, and they are also almost identical in cost and buildup. It doesn't have similar damage dealing ability. On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:09 Comeh wrote:
Alright - imagine a situation where storm spirit jumps in and pulls a hero away. You throw down a silence on SS, and he's dumb and doesn't have a BKB. You've effectively made the fight 5v4 for 6 seconds. Are there other disables? Probably, but you've taken out one of their key cores during the fight.
Again, not saying its the best item choice always, but that silence can win you the teamfight. Not always, but it can be a factor. That begs the question of why Storm would engage a fight like that when you have an Orchid and he doesn't have BKB. Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying. On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. We've moved past that - we are talking about the utility that an orchid can provide through the game. Seems we haven't. well, you should probably source your statement then. It's hard to strictly mathematically compare the two when one only amplifies physical damage and the other amplifies all damage, with the amplifications being of different magnitudes. On a rough comparison they come out equal because of this difference. We can come up with arbitrary numbers that will make one item look better than the other, but the only situation in which I would rather take deso over orchid is if my team has 5 carries (and in that situation it might still be better to go orchid, since we'd probably be severely lacking disables, and there'd be a better deso carrier most likely anyway) They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that. and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise. You see the problem with this? What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team? Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes. On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational". I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items. Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does). EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. Two things here: halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost. The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid. You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason. Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Saying people build Deso too often is very diferent from saying you should never build it because Orchid does the same damage and also has a silence.
Again, you're just arguing hypotheticals.
We can argue that all day. The damage output difference will completely depend on your frame of reference.
On May 04 2013 07:27 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:
You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason.
Sorry i just really need to quote this. Bahaha.
check this out
http://dotabuff.com/players/90045009/matches?hero=lifestealer&game_mode=&match_type=real
|
On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:18 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:15 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. the point is that it does-if it has similar damage dealing ability AND it has utility, there is literally no reason to ever choose the pure damage item. The more interesting comparison is S+Y and orchid, because both items have clear situations in which one is better than the other, and they are also almost identical in cost and buildup. It doesn't have similar damage dealing ability. On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:09 Comeh wrote:
Alright - imagine a situation where storm spirit jumps in and pulls a hero away. You throw down a silence on SS, and he's dumb and doesn't have a BKB. You've effectively made the fight 5v4 for 6 seconds. Are there other disables? Probably, but you've taken out one of their key cores during the fight.
Again, not saying its the best item choice always, but that silence can win you the teamfight. Not always, but it can be a factor. That begs the question of why Storm would engage a fight like that when you have an Orchid and he doesn't have BKB. Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying. On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. We've moved past that - we are talking about the utility that an orchid can provide through the game. Seems we haven't. well, you should probably source your statement then. It's hard to strictly mathematically compare the two when one only amplifies physical damage and the other amplifies all damage, with the amplifications being of different magnitudes. On a rough comparison they come out equal because of this difference. We can come up with arbitrary numbers that will make one item look better than the other, but the only situation in which I would rather take deso over orchid is if my team has 5 carries (and in that situation it might still be better to go orchid, since we'd probably be severely lacking disables, and there'd be a better deso carrier most likely anyway) They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that. and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise. You see the problem with this? What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team? Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes. On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational". I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items. Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does). EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. Two things here: halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost. The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid. You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason. Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know
I never said Orchid doesn't give you any damage though.
On May 04 2013 07:32 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:18 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:15 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. the point is that it does-if it has similar damage dealing ability AND it has utility, there is literally no reason to ever choose the pure damage item. The more interesting comparison is S+Y and orchid, because both items have clear situations in which one is better than the other, and they are also almost identical in cost and buildup. It doesn't have similar damage dealing ability. On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:09 Comeh wrote:
Alright - imagine a situation where storm spirit jumps in and pulls a hero away. You throw down a silence on SS, and he's dumb and doesn't have a BKB. You've effectively made the fight 5v4 for 6 seconds. Are there other disables? Probably, but you've taken out one of their key cores during the fight.
Again, not saying its the best item choice always, but that silence can win you the teamfight. Not always, but it can be a factor. That begs the question of why Storm would engage a fight like that when you have an Orchid and he doesn't have BKB. Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying. On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. We've moved past that - we are talking about the utility that an orchid can provide through the game. Seems we haven't. well, you should probably source your statement then. It's hard to strictly mathematically compare the two when one only amplifies physical damage and the other amplifies all damage, with the amplifications being of different magnitudes. On a rough comparison they come out equal because of this difference. We can come up with arbitrary numbers that will make one item look better than the other, but the only situation in which I would rather take deso over orchid is if my team has 5 carries (and in that situation it might still be better to go orchid, since we'd probably be severely lacking disables, and there'd be a better deso carrier most likely anyway) They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that. and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise. You see the problem with this? What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team? Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes. On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational". I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items. Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does). EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. Two things here: halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost. The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid. You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason. Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Saying people build Deso too often is very diferent from saying you should never build it because Orchid does the same damage and also has a silence. Again, you're just arguing hypotheticals. We can argue that all day. The damage output difference will completely depend on your frame of reference. Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:27 Unleashing wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:
You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason.
Sorry i just really need to quote this. Bahaha. check this out http://dotabuff.com/players/90045009/matches?hero=lifestealer&game_mode=&match_type=real
If it depends, you can't say one is always better. That's the whole point. Unless you mean orchid does at leas as much damage and maybe a lot more damage.
|
On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:18 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:15 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. the point is that it does-if it has similar damage dealing ability AND it has utility, there is literally no reason to ever choose the pure damage item. The more interesting comparison is S+Y and orchid, because both items have clear situations in which one is better than the other, and they are also almost identical in cost and buildup. It doesn't have similar damage dealing ability. On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:09 Comeh wrote:
Alright - imagine a situation where storm spirit jumps in and pulls a hero away. You throw down a silence on SS, and he's dumb and doesn't have a BKB. You've effectively made the fight 5v4 for 6 seconds. Are there other disables? Probably, but you've taken out one of their key cores during the fight.
Again, not saying its the best item choice always, but that silence can win you the teamfight. Not always, but it can be a factor. That begs the question of why Storm would engage a fight like that when you have an Orchid and he doesn't have BKB. Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying. On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. We've moved past that - we are talking about the utility that an orchid can provide through the game. Seems we haven't. well, you should probably source your statement then. It's hard to strictly mathematically compare the two when one only amplifies physical damage and the other amplifies all damage, with the amplifications being of different magnitudes. On a rough comparison they come out equal because of this difference. We can come up with arbitrary numbers that will make one item look better than the other, but the only situation in which I would rather take deso over orchid is if my team has 5 carries (and in that situation it might still be better to go orchid, since we'd probably be severely lacking disables, and there'd be a better deso carrier most likely anyway) They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that. and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise. You see the problem with this? What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team? Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes. On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational". I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items. Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does). EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. Two things here: halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost. The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid. You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason. Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know
Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target
Minor detail, but you know
|
On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:18 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:15 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. the point is that it does-if it has similar damage dealing ability AND it has utility, there is literally no reason to ever choose the pure damage item. The more interesting comparison is S+Y and orchid, because both items have clear situations in which one is better than the other, and they are also almost identical in cost and buildup. It doesn't have similar damage dealing ability. On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:09 Comeh wrote:
Alright - imagine a situation where storm spirit jumps in and pulls a hero away. You throw down a silence on SS, and he's dumb and doesn't have a BKB. You've effectively made the fight 5v4 for 6 seconds. Are there other disables? Probably, but you've taken out one of their key cores during the fight.
Again, not saying its the best item choice always, but that silence can win you the teamfight. Not always, but it can be a factor. That begs the question of why Storm would engage a fight like that when you have an Orchid and he doesn't have BKB. Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying. On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. We've moved past that - we are talking about the utility that an orchid can provide through the game. Seems we haven't. well, you should probably source your statement then. It's hard to strictly mathematically compare the two when one only amplifies physical damage and the other amplifies all damage, with the amplifications being of different magnitudes. On a rough comparison they come out equal because of this difference. We can come up with arbitrary numbers that will make one item look better than the other, but the only situation in which I would rather take deso over orchid is if my team has 5 carries (and in that situation it might still be better to go orchid, since we'd probably be severely lacking disables, and there'd be a better deso carrier most likely anyway) They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that. and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise. You see the problem with this? What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team? Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes. On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational". I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items. Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does). EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. Two things here: halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost. The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid. You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason. Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Minor detail, but you know
it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere.
But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage.
|
On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:18 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:15 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. the point is that it does-if it has similar damage dealing ability AND it has utility, there is literally no reason to ever choose the pure damage item. The more interesting comparison is S+Y and orchid, because both items have clear situations in which one is better than the other, and they are also almost identical in cost and buildup. It doesn't have similar damage dealing ability. On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 TheYango wrote:
[quote]
That begs the question of why Storm would engage a fight like that when you have an Orchid and he doesn't have BKB. Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying. On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. We've moved past that - we are talking about the utility that an orchid can provide through the game. Seems we haven't. well, you should probably source your statement then. It's hard to strictly mathematically compare the two when one only amplifies physical damage and the other amplifies all damage, with the amplifications being of different magnitudes. On a rough comparison they come out equal because of this difference. We can come up with arbitrary numbers that will make one item look better than the other, but the only situation in which I would rather take deso over orchid is if my team has 5 carries (and in that situation it might still be better to go orchid, since we'd probably be severely lacking disables, and there'd be a better deso carrier most likely anyway) They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that. and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise. You see the problem with this? What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team? Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes. On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational". I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items. Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does). EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. Two things here: halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost. The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid. You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason. Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage.
The target being hit, if that makes you happy. But I was talking about the math posted before, which doesn't consider it. YYF also never built a single orchid on those pub stats, if that matters.
|
On May 04 2013 07:37 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:18 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:15 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:14 wherebugsgo wrote:
[quote]
the point is that it does-if it has similar damage dealing ability AND it has utility, there is literally no reason to ever choose the pure damage item.
The more interesting comparison is S+Y and orchid, because both items have clear situations in which one is better than the other, and they are also almost identical in cost and buildup. It doesn't have similar damage dealing ability. On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
[quote]
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
[quote]
We've moved past that - we are talking about the utility that an orchid can provide through the game. Seems we haven't. well, you should probably source your statement then. It's hard to strictly mathematically compare the two when one only amplifies physical damage and the other amplifies all damage, with the amplifications being of different magnitudes. On a rough comparison they come out equal because of this difference. We can come up with arbitrary numbers that will make one item look better than the other, but the only situation in which I would rather take deso over orchid is if my team has 5 carries (and in that situation it might still be better to go orchid, since we'd probably be severely lacking disables, and there'd be a better deso carrier most likely anyway) They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that. and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise. You see the problem with this? What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team? Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes. On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational". I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items. Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does). EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. Two things here: halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost. The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid. You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason. Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. The target being hit, if that makes you happy. YYF also never built a single orchid on those pub stats, if that matters.
yes he did.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/130566627
|
On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:18 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:15 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. the point is that it does-if it has similar damage dealing ability AND it has utility, there is literally no reason to ever choose the pure damage item. The more interesting comparison is S+Y and orchid, because both items have clear situations in which one is better than the other, and they are also almost identical in cost and buildup. It doesn't have similar damage dealing ability. On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:12 TheYango wrote:
[quote]
That begs the question of why Storm would engage a fight like that when you have an Orchid and he doesn't have BKB. Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying. On May 04 2013 07:12 SKC wrote:
The issue is when you try to rationalize an Orchid pick by saying it has similar damage dealing ability as a pure damage dealing item such as Deso. It's all about how much the active is worth and that changes a lot between games. You can't just do math like MKB vs Deso vs Buriza. Even there the math can be misleading. We've moved past that - we are talking about the utility that an orchid can provide through the game. Seems we haven't. well, you should probably source your statement then. It's hard to strictly mathematically compare the two when one only amplifies physical damage and the other amplifies all damage, with the amplifications being of different magnitudes. On a rough comparison they come out equal because of this difference. We can come up with arbitrary numbers that will make one item look better than the other, but the only situation in which I would rather take deso over orchid is if my team has 5 carries (and in that situation it might still be better to go orchid, since we'd probably be severely lacking disables, and there'd be a better deso carrier most likely anyway) They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that. and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise. You see the problem with this? What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team? Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes. On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational". I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items. Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does). EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. Two things here: halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost. The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid. You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason. Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage.
My point is you should all shut up because you're a bunch of idiots going around in circles. Deso has its uses, Orchid has its uses as well. They don't overlap in how you use them or what you're going for when you build them. Both are situational and often times worse than going SnY which I think everyone has agreed, should be standard on him.
How has this not been clear for 2+ pages now?
|
On May 04 2013 07:38 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:37 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:18 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:15 SKC wrote:
[quote]
It doesn't have similar damage dealing ability.
[quote]
Seems we haven't. well, you should probably source your statement then. It's hard to strictly mathematically compare the two when one only amplifies physical damage and the other amplifies all damage, with the amplifications being of different magnitudes. On a rough comparison they come out equal because of this difference. We can come up with arbitrary numbers that will make one item look better than the other, but the only situation in which I would rather take deso over orchid is if my team has 5 carries (and in that situation it might still be better to go orchid, since we'd probably be severely lacking disables, and there'd be a better deso carrier most likely anyway) They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that. and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise. You see the problem with this? What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team? Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes. On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational". I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items. Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does). EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. Two things here: halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost. The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid. You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason. Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. The target being hit, if that makes you happy. YYF also never built a single orchid on those pub stats, if that matters. yes he did. http://dotabuff.com/matches/130566627
Skipped one I guess, but that's one in 5 pages unless I missed another.
|
On May 04 2013 07:39 LeLoup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:18 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:15 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:14 wherebugsgo wrote:
[quote]
the point is that it does-if it has similar damage dealing ability AND it has utility, there is literally no reason to ever choose the pure damage item.
The more interesting comparison is S+Y and orchid, because both items have clear situations in which one is better than the other, and they are also almost identical in cost and buildup. It doesn't have similar damage dealing ability. On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
[quote]
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
[quote]
We've moved past that - we are talking about the utility that an orchid can provide through the game. Seems we haven't. well, you should probably source your statement then. It's hard to strictly mathematically compare the two when one only amplifies physical damage and the other amplifies all damage, with the amplifications being of different magnitudes. On a rough comparison they come out equal because of this difference. We can come up with arbitrary numbers that will make one item look better than the other, but the only situation in which I would rather take deso over orchid is if my team has 5 carries (and in that situation it might still be better to go orchid, since we'd probably be severely lacking disables, and there'd be a better deso carrier most likely anyway) They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that. and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise. You see the problem with this? What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team? Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes. On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational". I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items. Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does). EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. Two things here: halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost. The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid. You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason. Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. My point is you should all shut up because you're a bunch of idiots going around in circles. Deso has its uses, Orchid has its uses as well. They don't overlap in how you use them or what you're going for when you build them. Both are situational and often times worse than going SnY which I think everyone has agreed, should be standard on him. How has this not been clear for 2+ pages now?
Well, just as an experiment, can you explain what uses deso on naix actually has?
He certainly isn't a pushing carry, and he's not like BH where the deso would be really useful for an initiating crit or something like that. Why is deso better than other items on naix? In what situations?
I can't think of very many, if any at all.
|
On May 04 2013 07:41 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:39 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:18 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:15 SKC wrote:
[quote]
It doesn't have similar damage dealing ability.
[quote]
Seems we haven't. well, you should probably source your statement then. It's hard to strictly mathematically compare the two when one only amplifies physical damage and the other amplifies all damage, with the amplifications being of different magnitudes. On a rough comparison they come out equal because of this difference. We can come up with arbitrary numbers that will make one item look better than the other, but the only situation in which I would rather take deso over orchid is if my team has 5 carries (and in that situation it might still be better to go orchid, since we'd probably be severely lacking disables, and there'd be a better deso carrier most likely anyway) They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that. and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise. You see the problem with this? What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team? Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes. On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational". I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items. Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does). EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. Two things here: halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost. The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid. You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason. Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. My point is you should all shut up because you're a bunch of idiots going around in circles. Deso has its uses, Orchid has its uses as well. They don't overlap in how you use them or what you're going for when you build them. Both are situational and often times worse than going SnY which I think everyone has agreed, should be standard on him. How has this not been clear for 2+ pages now? Well, just as an experiment, can you explain what uses deso on naix actually has? He certainly isn't a pushing carry, and he's not like BH where the deso would be really useful for an initiating crit or something like that. Why is deso better than other items on naix? In what situations? I can't think of very many, if any at all.
http://dotabuff.com/players/90892734/matches?hero=lifestealer&game_mode=&match_type=real
Burning builds Deso in pubs, if you think pub builds matter at all.
|
On May 04 2013 07:41 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:39 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:34 LeLoup wrote:On May 04 2013 07:31 Comeh wrote:On May 04 2013 07:30 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:19 SKC wrote:On May 04 2013 07:18 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 04 2013 07:15 SKC wrote:
[quote]
It doesn't have similar damage dealing ability.
[quote]
Seems we haven't. well, you should probably source your statement then. It's hard to strictly mathematically compare the two when one only amplifies physical damage and the other amplifies all damage, with the amplifications being of different magnitudes. On a rough comparison they come out equal because of this difference. We can come up with arbitrary numbers that will make one item look better than the other, but the only situation in which I would rather take deso over orchid is if my team has 5 carries (and in that situation it might still be better to go orchid, since we'd probably be severely lacking disables, and there'd be a better deso carrier most likely anyway) They have comparable damage outputs while orchid's effect is active. So they only have comparable damage outputs in a portion of the damage you do, unless you do all your damage during Orchid's effect, in a target affected by it. It's really basic math, you don't really need a source from that. and one can argue again that deso only has a comparable damage output when you're attacking, or when your team's damage is more physical than otherwise. You see the problem with this? What happens if you're the only physical damage dealer on the team? Like I said, we can come up with hypotheticals that make one item look better than the other damage-wise. They are roughly the same for practical purposes. On May 04 2013 07:16 TheYango wrote:On May 04 2013 07:13 Comeh wrote:
Haha, again, discussions like these always end up to the point where you hit a wall, since everything is talked about in a vacuum. The item is fine situational is what i'm saying.
Well yeah, every item discussion reaches the point of "X item is situational". I just don't think that it's an item where you can justify it on pure heads-up teamfighting power. Because what you gain in potential utility is also lost in your up-front fighting ability due to the lack of actual stats compared to other items. Also the other item in the similar price range that's been dismissed is Halberd--which gives a much more rounded mix of up-front fighting stats, while also having the usefulness of taking a hero out of the fight (even though it won't be the same one that Orchid does). EDIT: I also just don't like the comparison to Deso in the first place because Deso is also not a compelling item outside of certain specific scenarios. Comparing situational item A to situational item B and saying situational item B is better than A because there are more situations where B is useful still doesn't sell B very hard. Two things here: halberd is primarily, IMO, a survivability item. You get it to prevent someone from attacking, and to take less damage. You use it on a farmed carry, and often it's a very good item when behind. It's a terrible item for damage on naix, much worse than any of the other options for similar cost. The second thing is that the reason deso should be included in the comparisons is because people build deso on naix so fucking often. It makes no sense (and pros used to build it in matches not that long ago too) given the math behind the other item choices, particularly S+Y and orchid. You'll never see YYF build deso, and for good reason. Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target, by posted before. How it helps your team in a teamfight, how many people are able to focus down that target, etc. are all things that change wildly each game, and it's why you can't just say Orchid always does the same damage a damage dealing item does. The target may be disrupted, you may get RPed during the duration, he may ghost scepter and run away, etc. The damage from the damage dealing item will always be there. If you can't actually do damage it's another issue entirely, but it has nothing to do with Orchid dealing more damage than it. Actually, orchid gives +30 DMG +30 AS. Minor detail...but...you know Orchid also does 0 damage if you are not attacking the target Minor detail, but you know it's actually wrong, like I already said before, arguing hypotheticals won't get us anywhere. But, unlike deso, you CAN deal damage with orchid without even hitting the target. Silence + your team attacking or silence + infest will do damage. My point is you should all shut up because you're a bunch of idiots going around in circles. Deso has its uses, Orchid has its uses as well. They don't overlap in how you use them or what you're going for when you build them. Both are situational and often times worse than going SnY which I think everyone has agreed, should be standard on him. How has this not been clear for 2+ pages now? Well, just as an experiment, can you explain what uses deso on naix actually has? He certainly isn't a pushing carry, and he's not like BH where the deso would be really useful for an initiating crit or something like that. Why is deso better than other items on naix? In what situations? I can't think of very many, if any at all.
You said it yourself, Deso is a pushing item, it allows you to quickly take towers getting map control faster. That is the reason to get it. If you're running Naix in a lineup with a heavy pushing strat you can use the desolator to grab key towers (mid/bot tier 2) and then grab a quick rosh using the desolator buff so that when you push T3 early, you have the desolator damage and the aegis making your push that much harder to defend against and allowing you to get more damage on the tower than normal.
Also if you ever have a storm on your team.
EDIT: and even then that is just deso over orchid, not over SnY
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
