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United States47024 Posts
On February 07 2013 04:28 TheKefka wrote:
I don't agree with that as well actually.With that logic NA players and teams would be at the top of the world,but they aren't.Out of everyone they suck.Practice time has to do with how cheep the living conditions are in your environment imo.
Is anyone surprised at this point that the only teams that can hold their own against Asians are from eastern Europe?
In korea you get into a gaming house and you live there basically for free,you don't get a salary,but still you live for free.
China as far as I understand is ridic cheep(food,etc.).
No? The practice incentive in NA is ridiculously low because there's virtually no incentive to be the best. A big chunk of the scene are students/part-time players living out of someone else's pocket, and another chunk are players with streaming income that doesn't require them to play well or get better.
You're totally ignoring the growth phase where poor teams were living in apartments with no heating in the winter and subsisted off tournament winnings and expecting Western E-sports to instantly jump to the sponsored phase without undergoing any of the hardship that Asian players/teams took to get there.
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On February 07 2013 04:31 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 04:28 TheKefka wrote:
I don't agree with that as well actually.With that logic NA players and teams would be at the top of the world,but they aren't.Out of everyone they suck.Practice time has to do with how cheep the living conditions are in your environment imo.
Is anyone surprised at this point that the only teams that can hold their own against Asians are from eastern Europe?
In korea you get into a gaming house and you live there basically for free,you don't get a salary,but still you live for free.
China as far as I understand is ridic cheep(food,etc.). No? The practice incentive in NA is ridiculously low because there's virtually no incentive to be the best. A big chunk of the scene are students/part-time players living out of someone else's pocket, and another chunk are players with streaming income that doesn't require them to play well or get better.
Yea but that only applys to LoL(the really popular streamers) and EG in starcraft really.
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On February 07 2013 04:28 TheYango wrote:
It's also kind of funny that in the West people say that for E-sports to grow, teams can't rely on tournament winnings for their livelihood--when in fact, Asian E-sports grew out of fledgeling scenes that fostered stiff competition BECAUSE players were depending on tournament winnings for their livelihood (e.g. GO Team basically living solely out of Coach Cho's pocket + Xellos' tournament winnings).
Well part of the question isn't just how large the tournament pools are - but how consistent tournament pools are, how strict competition is (gaming from early 2000 is different from competitive gaming now in terms of what is expected of a progamer), the expectation of growth in the industry (starcraft is a unique exception to be sure), the cost of living, as well as other factors. The explosion of scbw in korea might have been more of an outlier / unique case rather than something to build a realistic expectation upon - in particular when you are comparing that to growth in Western gaming.
On February 07 2013 04:31 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 04:28 TheKefka wrote:
I don't agree with that as well actually.With that logic NA players and teams would be at the top of the world,but they aren't.Out of everyone they suck.Practice time has to do with how cheep the living conditions are in your environment imo.
Is anyone surprised at this point that the only teams that can hold their own against Asians are from eastern Europe?
In korea you get into a gaming house and you live there basically for free,you don't get a salary,but still you live for free.
China as far as I understand is ridic cheep(food,etc.). No? The practice incentive in NA is ridiculously low because there's virtually no incentive to be the best. A big chunk of the scene are students/part-time players living out of someone else's pocket, and another chunk are players with streaming income that doesn't require them to play well or get better. You're totally ignoring the growth phase where poor teams were living in apartments with no heating in the winter and subsisted off tournament winnings and expecting Western E-sports to instantly jump to the sponsored phase without undergoing any of the hardship that Asian players/teams took to get there.
I wouldn't say that there isn't incentive to be the best, but rather the incentive isn't good enough. If you make 20k a year from being the best (EE's point of the video really), then what reward is there for practice? And if only a few teams can make that kind of money, and everyone else makes 2-4k a year, why quit your day job to practice more for the POSSIBILITY of making 10-20k, especially with the west's high cost of living?
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On February 07 2013 04:31 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 04:28 TheKefka wrote:
I don't agree with that as well actually.With that logic NA players and teams would be at the top of the world,but they aren't.Out of everyone they suck.Practice time has to do with how cheep the living conditions are in your environment imo.
Is anyone surprised at this point that the only teams that can hold their own against Asians are from eastern Europe?
In korea you get into a gaming house and you live there basically for free,you don't get a salary,but still you live for free.
China as far as I understand is ridic cheep(food,etc.). No? The practice incentive in NA is ridiculously low because there's virtually no incentive to be the best. A big chunk of the scene are students/part-time players living out of someone else's pocket, and another chunk are players with streaming income that doesn't require them to play well or get better.
If your "professional team" that has the plain goal of creating exposure and ad revenue for you from a business perspective doesn't practice well / doesn't bring results, the issues lies with the management. If someone higher up the hierarchy just plain sucks at his job, this type of shit happens.
You're totally ignoring the growth phase where poor teams were living in apartments with no heating in the winter and subsisted off tournament winnings and expecting Western E-sports to instantly jump to the sponsored phase without undergoing any of the hardship that Asian players/teams took to get there.
You can't compare China with Korea or the Western scene when it comes to what stages it has to go through. The equivalent of "no heating in the winter" in this case is more like "can't afford a Maid to do the dishes". The amount of people with no other option for the forseeable future than to make it as a pro is incredibly small.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 07 2013 04:33 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 04:31 TheYango wrote:On February 07 2013 04:28 TheKefka wrote:
I don't agree with that as well actually.With that logic NA players and teams would be at the top of the world,but they aren't.Out of everyone they suck.Practice time has to do with how cheep the living conditions are in your environment imo.
Is anyone surprised at this point that the only teams that can hold their own against Asians are from eastern Europe?
In korea you get into a gaming house and you live there basically for free,you don't get a salary,but still you live for free.
China as far as I understand is ridic cheep(food,etc.). No? The practice incentive in NA is ridiculously low because there's virtually no incentive to be the best. A big chunk of the scene are students/part-time players living out of someone else's pocket, and another chunk are players with streaming income that doesn't require them to play well or get better. Yea but that only applys to LoL(the really popular streamers) and EG in starcraft really.
The streaming part, sure. The students part? A lot of NA "progamers" in all games essentially only play their game of choice as a part-time job.
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On February 07 2013 04:36 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 04:33 TheKefka wrote:On February 07 2013 04:31 TheYango wrote:On February 07 2013 04:28 TheKefka wrote:
I don't agree with that as well actually.With that logic NA players and teams would be at the top of the world,but they aren't.Out of everyone they suck.Practice time has to do with how cheep the living conditions are in your environment imo.
Is anyone surprised at this point that the only teams that can hold their own against Asians are from eastern Europe?
In korea you get into a gaming house and you live there basically for free,you don't get a salary,but still you live for free.
China as far as I understand is ridic cheep(food,etc.). No? The practice incentive in NA is ridiculously low because there's virtually no incentive to be the best. A big chunk of the scene are students/part-time players living out of someone else's pocket, and another chunk are players with streaming income that doesn't require them to play well or get better. Yea but that only applys to LoL(the really popular streamers) and EG in starcraft really. The streaming part, sure. The students part? A lot of NA "progamers" in all games essentially only play their game of choice as a part-time job.
Because there is no money to make it a full time job.
That's the point.
Edit: i've kind of lost what we are talking about now.
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On February 07 2013 04:30 AirbladeOrange wrote:
Maybe it's just me but lately I have been running into people who are less friendly and much ruder in my games. I'm not in very high skilled games but I have probably been increasing in skill recently. The past couple days people have been very critical and insulting lately. Not too fun. I like chill friendly games. Am I in the minority here?
It kinda varies. There are definitely people in every skill bracket that rage uncontrollably and at the same time there are others that are chill about everything. A large part of it is just variance in people's moods. I'm mad after a 4 game losing streak pretty much always, no matter how chill I may be at other times.
So basically, it is just variance. If you like chill friendly games I recommend adding chill friendly players to your friends list and playing with them a lot.
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On February 07 2013 04:23 TheYango wrote:
I don't agree that practice time increases with bigger sponsorships.
Practice time increases with incentives to practice. A cutthroat competitive environment with a "less than #1 is nobody" or "perform or get replaced" attitude encourages practice. A stable income that's independent of your actual results and a streaming income that discourages real practice and encourages screwing around in solo queue aren't exactly good incentives to practice.
It's a mixture of both that many pro/ex-pros have pointed out, there comes a point where your sponsorship/team offers you a comfortable practice environment in which you can focus on the game without lapsing into a point of complacency in which income from sure things aside from winning and playing better supersedes self-improvement.
Also the west/east issue, LoL actually likely suffers less from that than other comparative games (starcraft comes to mind) due to the relative mechanical basis and ceiling being noticeably lower on an individual level. This, combined with Riot's patching and constant buffing/nerfing of champions and items based on their own perception of "metagame", rewards trying new things and (to a certain degree) makes the mastery of the game's mechanics not necessarily the sole element needed for eastern dominance of the scene. That's not to say that the eastern scene wont be stronger than the west, but as long as the game changes in a major way once a month and the relative mechanical gap remains manageable a dominance on the level of starcraft would likely not occur.
For PL, figuring out which one the real PL is shouldn't honestly be the problem, simply using dust and then hitting the batch with AOEs will likely allow you to figure out which PL is real in most circumstances, the issue becomes killing a hero with 25 armor and +20% magic resistance and 2.5k hp while his illusions shred everything
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On February 07 2013 04:36 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 04:33 TheKefka wrote:On February 07 2013 04:31 TheYango wrote:On February 07 2013 04:28 TheKefka wrote:
I don't agree with that as well actually.With that logic NA players and teams would be at the top of the world,but they aren't.Out of everyone they suck.Practice time has to do with how cheep the living conditions are in your environment imo.
Is anyone surprised at this point that the only teams that can hold their own against Asians are from eastern Europe?
In korea you get into a gaming house and you live there basically for free,you don't get a salary,but still you live for free.
China as far as I understand is ridic cheep(food,etc.). No? The practice incentive in NA is ridiculously low because there's virtually no incentive to be the best. A big chunk of the scene are students/part-time players living out of someone else's pocket, and another chunk are players with streaming income that doesn't require them to play well or get better. Yea but that only applys to LoL(the really popular streamers) and EG in starcraft really. The streaming part, sure. The students part? A lot of NA "progamers" in all games essentially only play their game of choice as a part-time job.
Well yea that's because they can't just drop everything and become a progamer if they want.As far as know you have to pay a shitload of money to be able to go to a university in the US right?
Here you can pass a entrance exam and get into college for free,hell if you drop out and than transfer to something else you still get to study first time for free.I don't know how it's in Asia and I get the "Asian parents" thing,but in Korea you still get a roof over your head and food at least from a team,if you drop out of college in the US you are basically fucked,so how can someone dedicate a lot of time to games when there is no infrastructure and they aren't even sure they are going to be able to live from it for even a year?
What happened to people like regi,hotshot,dyrus,etc. is basically the equivalent of winning the lottery.
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On February 07 2013 04:36 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 04:33 TheKefka wrote:On February 07 2013 04:31 TheYango wrote:On February 07 2013 04:28 TheKefka wrote:
I don't agree with that as well actually.With that logic NA players and teams would be at the top of the world,but they aren't.Out of everyone they suck.Practice time has to do with how cheep the living conditions are in your environment imo.
Is anyone surprised at this point that the only teams that can hold their own against Asians are from eastern Europe?
In korea you get into a gaming house and you live there basically for free,you don't get a salary,but still you live for free.
China as far as I understand is ridic cheep(food,etc.). No? The practice incentive in NA is ridiculously low because there's virtually no incentive to be the best. A big chunk of the scene are students/part-time players living out of someone else's pocket, and another chunk are players with streaming income that doesn't require them to play well or get better. Yea but that only applys to LoL(the really popular streamers) and EG in starcraft really. The streaming part, sure. The students part? A lot of NA "progamers" in all games essentially only play their game of choice as a part-time job.
Assume you have the money to sponsor such a team and want them to promote your products. Would you let that shit fly?
No, because it would be bad for business. If a sponsor lets a team get away with solo q as practice and streaming into their own pockets while living of his sponsorships then, quite frankly, that sponsor and his team deserves to have no success whatsoever. If they still do have success despite this the competition between sponsors isn't big enough. Which brings us back to "more viewers, more sponsors, more money".
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On February 07 2013 04:23 TheYango wrote:
I don't agree that practice time increases with bigger sponsorships.
Practice time increases with incentives to practice. A cutthroat competitive environment with a "less than #1 is nobody" or "perform or get replaced" attitude encourages practice. A stable income that's independent of your actual results and a streaming income that discourages real practice and encourages screwing around in solo queue aren't exactly good incentives to practice.
So what you are saying is.... Perfect is shit?
+ Show Spoiler +
^^
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On February 07 2013 04:51 Kishin2 wrote:
What a confusing debate.
I'm one of the main persons in the debate, and I'm not sure what we are debating anymore.
Something something there isn't enough money something something.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 07 2013 04:40 Kupon3ss wrote:
It's a mixture of both that many pro/ex-pros have pointed out, there comes a point where your sponsorship/team offers you a comfortable practice environment in which you can focus on the game without lapsing into a point of complacency in which income from sure things aside from winning and playing better supersedes self-improvement.
With regard to Riot's salary though, this isn't quite the same. Riot can't offer the possibility of a raise to players that perform better (the promise of salary increase acts as further incentive even for a player with a stable salary already) because of the necessity of being fair to all teams. Plus in neither LoL nor DotA do Asian pros stream for income--maybe once in a while in their off-hours.
TBH I think people need to decide where they stand on streaming. Blurring the line between the player as a competitor and the player as an entertainer arguably hurts the incentive to practice, and its increasingly awkward as organizations make the assumption of streaming/stream income.
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On February 07 2013 04:57 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 04:40 Kupon3ss wrote:
It's a mixture of both that many pro/ex-pros have pointed out, there comes a point where your sponsorship/team offers you a comfortable practice environment in which you can focus on the game without lapsing into a point of complacency in which income from sure things aside from winning and playing better supersedes self-improvement. With regard to Riot's salary though, this isn't quite the same. Riot can't offer the possibility of a raise to players that perform better (the promise of salary increase acts as further incentive even for a player with a stable salary already) because of the necessity of being fair to all teams. Plus in neither LoL nor DotA do Asian pros stream for income--maybe once in a while in their off-hours.
Or sometimes they promise to do it every day in off hours (chuan) xD
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Not the case tho but I'm fairly sure PIS makes a good amount of cash only by posting his vods in "Youtube".
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United States47024 Posts
On February 07 2013 05:01 duoform wrote:
Not the case tho but I'm fairly sure PIS makes a good amount of cash only by posting his vods in "Youtube".
Team Greedy can only really be considered a semi-pro team to begin with though.
PIS/09 represent the fact that "player as a competitor"/"player as an entertainer" are much more well-distinguished in China--nobody in the business of making Youku VODs are current full-time pros.
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On February 07 2013 04:36 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 04:36 TheYango wrote:On February 07 2013 04:33 TheKefka wrote:On February 07 2013 04:31 TheYango wrote:On February 07 2013 04:28 TheKefka wrote:
I don't agree with that as well actually.With that logic NA players and teams would be at the top of the world,but they aren't.Out of everyone they suck.Practice time has to do with how cheep the living conditions are in your environment imo.
Is anyone surprised at this point that the only teams that can hold their own against Asians are from eastern Europe?
In korea you get into a gaming house and you live there basically for free,you don't get a salary,but still you live for free.
China as far as I understand is ridic cheep(food,etc.). No? The practice incentive in NA is ridiculously low because there's virtually no incentive to be the best. A big chunk of the scene are students/part-time players living out of someone else's pocket, and another chunk are players with streaming income that doesn't require them to play well or get better. Yea but that only applys to LoL(the really popular streamers) and EG in starcraft really. The streaming part, sure. The students part? A lot of NA "progamers" in all games essentially only play their game of choice as a part-time job. Because there is no money to make it a full time job. That's the point. Edit: i've kind of lost what we are talking about now.
If you get a respectable college degree you can make so much more money in a shitty entry level position than probably 100% of DOTA players. Not to mention your pay will likely increase with time and experience, rather than decrease and end within a decade.
Like only the kids with no proper guidance or foresight or thought for their future would give up a college education to play games. Even success stories like EE are making miniscule amounts of money compared to those who actually get real world jobs.
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On February 07 2013 05:01 duoform wrote:
Not the case tho but I'm fairly sure PIS makes a good amount of cash only by posting his vods in "Youtube".
^ I am fcking addicted to vods from 2009/pis/820 and nada is starting to join this vod business.
I was typing a long reply to the discussion but then fck that i'll post the key points from my opinion:
1) dont like/dont care about EE at all so even if he pulled a 'destiny' of jumping into LoL i still wouldnt give a damn.
2) Have to mention that Merlini has the right attitude, he is basically making his stream as a product to sell well (and it does). Maybe EE should learn to stream/ learn to be loved by people.
3) Chuan is the only must watch stream for me atm (along with all those vods from 2009/pis etc) and then sing/dendi/merlini and then funnik/aui from time to time.
4) I dont see anything wrong with Riot pumping in money to feed the players but it is a pure business decision in the end of day and who knows if that made a new standard in esport? I dislike what they do because they will probably stop doing that if dota2 failed (just saying), sponsor is the real way to do it but who knows this may develop into something big AND THUS real sponsors will come in.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.deviantart.com/download/329472898/shadow_fiend___nevermore_by_keenzo-d5g5qwy.png<br>Yeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh)
