On February 06 2013 06:15 Numy wrote: A lot of heroes require setup disables to be more effective. Stating that you think his ability is bad because it works better with a setup is rather silly. AA dual lanes are insanely good it's just that dual lanes aren't as strong as they used to be. Don't forget vortex is huge range so it's very good for scouting. AA also used to be really good in mid.
Would you rather have AA's cold feet or Leshrac's split earth?
Because, cold feet is AA's best ability by a zillion miles (pre-6), whereas on lesh split earth is good, but so is edict. And I take Lesh's stun over AA's every time. Whatever. I wanted to stop arguing this.
Oh yeah, I was also gonna say that I thought AA was better in a 3v3 compared to a 2v2 lane situation, since his E gains relevance (although admittedly cold feet is single target). Dunno. Haven't every played him in a tri vs tri situation, I'll admit.
I've (and i'm sure others) have been wondering how good chilling touch is in a trilane vs trilane situation - anyone have any experience trying to run this?
IIRC navi picked up an AA and chilling touch won them a level 1 5v5 teamfight.
Problem with tri on tri is that your supports don't really have any fall back to get levels and AA needs levels badly.
To the quote: Leshrac and AA fill completely different purposes as a support. Comparing one spell to another isn't really usefull if you ignore the purpose behind picking the hero. AA provides global map presence and safe aoe burst in teamfights. Leshrac has a greater lane burst potential but doesn't provide the global presence nor does he provide safe aoe in teamfight(Lightning build is superior to edict these days outside of some situations I feel, like zero contested pushing) Currently Lesh most likely fits more into the game because lane pressure/roaming is just more useful but that doesn't mean AA is a bad hero.
Oh yeah - I totally agree about trilanes with AA, but I was just curious how strong chilling touch is in those kind of scenarios.
I'd be really really interestes in AA picking up solo mid with an aggressive tri lane lineup, AA grabs chill touch at lvl 1 and you pick a tri team that is crazy strong at lvl 1. you group up and go into their jungle at lvl 1 AA uses chill tocuh to secure FB if opportunity presents itself, and otherwise AA uses chill touch on the tri lane just before going back to mid and they use that chill touch to harrass the crap and force minute 1 salves.
On February 06 2013 07:13 Sn0_Man wrote: Then what does AA do solo mid?
Oh, AFK for level 6. Gotcha. Man, I must be nearly uniquely bad with AA ulti. Everybody treats it like a ravage or something.
AA is quite a good solo mid in fact. He's not as strong as TA but he used to be used to beat up on invoker back in the day(Now anyone beats invoker). Remember bulba going mid AA a few times and using his ulti to effect small skirmishes. Hell in the international you had iceiceice invoker + AA(can't remember who it was) wreck. I think Yango was right, this is a pointless discussion since you won't change your mind and everyone else seems to be in agreement.
On February 06 2013 07:13 Sn0_Man wrote: Then what does AA do solo mid?
E: Oh, AFK for level 6. Gotcha. Man, I must be nearly uniquely bad with AA ulti. Everybody treats it like a ravage or something.
AA solo mid gets even better when the safe lane has to use the courier early to ferry more regen instead of getting the bottle for mid (or risk giving up kills in safe lane)
On February 06 2013 07:13 Sn0_Man wrote: Then what does AA do solo mid?
Oh, AFK for level 6. Gotcha. Man, I must be nearly uniquely bad with AA ulti. Everybody treats it like a ravage or something.
AA is quite a good solo mid in fact. He's not as strong as TA but he used to be used to beat up on invoker back in the day(Now anyone beats invoker). Remember bulba going mid AA a few times and using his ulti to effect small skirmishes. Hell in the international you had iceiceice invoker + AA(can't remember who it was) wreck. I think Yango was right, this is a pointless discussion since you won't change your mind and everyone else seems to be in agreement.
I legitimately don't understand how AA beats anybody mid. I mean, yeah he is 600 range with a good animation. Buuuuuut thats about it isn't it? I mean, at least invoker can go QW and control runes with wex runspeed and out-harass with quas regen?
AA doesn't even have decent lasthit damage (44-54) although obviously invoker's is worse.
Another question then: why don't we see shadow shaman anymore. Is it due to the death of the "push meta"?
Cold Feet becomes free damage in trades. You can't stand and trade against AA who Cold Feets you, you either run or you eat the stun. Either way you eat free autoattack damage.
Obviously he seems bad when you just use Cold Feet as a mediocre nuke, but as a spell that forces your opponent to run when he doesn't want to, it's strong.
Rhasta gets crushed by facerush heroes like Night Stalker and Bounty Hunter.
On February 06 2013 06:15 Numy wrote: A lot of heroes require setup disables to be more effective. Stating that you think his ability is bad because it works better with a setup is rather silly. AA dual lanes are insanely good it's just that dual lanes aren't as strong as they used to be. Don't forget vortex is huge range so it's very good for scouting. AA also used to be really good in mid.
Would you rather have AA's cold feet or Leshrac's split earth?
Because, cold feet is AA's best ability by a zillion miles (pre-6), whereas on lesh split earth is good, but so is edict. And I take Lesh's stun over AA's every time. Whatever. I wanted to stop arguing this.
Oh yeah, I was also gonna say that I thought AA was better in a 3v3 compared to a 2v2 lane situation, since his E gains relevance (although admittedly cold feet is single target). Dunno. Haven't every played him in a tri vs tri situation, I'll admit.
I've (and i'm sure others) have been wondering how good chilling touch is in a trilane vs trilane situation - anyone have any experience trying to run this?
IIRC navi picked up an AA and chilling touch won them a level 1 5v5 teamfight.
Problem with tri on tri is that your supports don't really have any fall back to get levels and AA needs levels badly.
To the quote: Leshrac and AA fill completely different purposes as a support. Comparing one spell to another isn't really usefull if you ignore the purpose behind picking the hero. AA provides global map presence and safe aoe burst in teamfights. Leshrac has a greater lane burst potential but doesn't provide the global presence nor does he provide safe aoe in teamfight(Lightning build is superior to edict these days outside of some situations I feel, like zero contested pushing) Currently Lesh most likely fits more into the game because lane pressure/roaming is just more useful but that doesn't mean AA is a bad hero.
Oh yeah - I totally agree about trilanes with AA, but I was just curious how strong chilling touch is in those kind of scenarios.
I'd be really really interestes in AA picking up solo mid with an aggressive tri lane lineup, AA grabs chill touch at lvl 1 and you pick a tri team that is crazy strong at lvl 1. you group up and go into their jungle at lvl 1 AA uses chill tocuh to secure FB if opportunity presents itself, and otherwise AA uses chill touch on the tri lane just before going back to mid and they use that chill touch to harrass the crap and force minute 1 salves.
On February 06 2013 07:29 TheYango wrote: Cold Feet becomes free damage in trades. You can't stand and trade against AA who Cold Feets you, you either run or you eat the stun. Either way you eat free autoattack damage.
Obviously he seems bad when you just use Cold Feet as a mediocre nuke, but as a spell that forces your opponent to run when he doesn't want to, it's strong.
Rhasta gets crushed by facerush heroes like Night Stalker and Bounty Hunter.
Interesting, cuz Rhasta always felt strong against anything trying to tower dive you. Sheep one, Bind the other and wait for the TP support to arrive. I guess that breaks down when 3 stuns come to gank you or whatver, but who survives a triple-stun gank anyways? Okay qop/TA can but I dunno.
Obviously very squishy though. I suppose I'm describing this in a solo mid type role (always the way I preferred seeing him played). As a support he's squishy but so is, say, rubick who has seen a lot of play recently.
I just like Rhasta (not really playing him, but watching him)
You don't have mana to spam shock for harass/waveclear and enough for sheep/shackle. You also need like level 9 before you getting more levels in disables.
I think the point with aa mid is to use coldfeet when some creeps are low. So the enemy has to choose between running away and not contesting (all) lasthits or going for lasthits and eat the full damage/stun. I was in fact running aa mid vs sf with some success, but might just be another case of "anything works in pubs". But the full potential shows once you reach lvl 6, as you can now gank and get exp/gold in lane at the same time; if you plan to do so, you might also consider go coldfeet/stats. Sure he/she/it's not the best mid, but surely a useful situational pick I'd say.
You really need to think through how much damage AA ult does to realize how ridiculous of a skill it is.
At level 6: 250 impact damage + 100 overtime damage + shatter @ ~80-100 HP + ~70-250 negated healing (no regen + can't use wand) = 350 magic + 150-350 effective pure damage.
Higher effective damage than Lina ult even on a single target, much lower CD and mana cost, global range. The fact that its unreliable is more than matched by how insane the damage is if you can land them reliably.
I actually like all of AA's abilities. None of them are weak after the buff to chilling touch.
He's somewhat unique in having vortex, an aoe spell that lowers magic resistance (it's practically a free veil with a slow attached). The slow on it is just a bonus, and it's also possible to have two up at once due to the low CD. Really his issue is that all of his spells are strongest early game so that if he's played as a support you have to pick what you want to level, you can't have all of the spells maxed and none of them are 1 point wonders (chilling touch comes the closest on that). He also suffers from mana consumption issues early on until arcanes, and even after that can't support constant spamming of his spells.
The old build of going cold feet/stats in lane is something I see people do a lot in pubs, I don't like it. Vortex is just an insanely good spell for any sort of engagement while chilling touch doesn't ever really lose its relevance anymore. As a game drags on magic damage becomes more potent while physical gets less (as there's a cap to the amount of magic resistance you can get, while there is not one on armor). That's somewhat counter-intuitive with BKBs, but once bkbs are all down to 5 seconds is the time frame I'm talking about here.
I don't really think the shackleshot/cold feet comparison works though - shackle can latch 2 targets instantly.
Having a lower str gain (1.4) than CM really doesn't help his case(his ridiculous agi gain (2.2) for an intelligence hero makes him a bit harder to kill with physical damage later on, I guess).
You get Stats at 2 and 4 in solo lanes because Vortex isn't going to do much in solo lanes. It's not mana-efficient for damage when the only thing benefiting from it is Cold Feet (though in duo/trilanes it's instrumental in kill attempts with another hero's nukes/disables). Chilling Touch isn't worth it at that level either because you're only using it on 1 person, and it has really high CD which is impractical for lane. The per-rank gain of Vortex also isn't that high, so being 2 ranks behind later is a decent tradeoff for stronger laning at early levels.
On February 06 2013 08:39 TheYango wrote: You get Stats at 2 and 4 in solo lanes because Vortex isn't going to do much in solo lanes. It's not mana-efficient for damage when the only thing benefiting from it is Cold Feet (though in duo/trilanes it's instrumental in kill attempts with another hero's nukes/disables). Chilling Touch isn't worth it at that level either because you're only using it on 1 person, and it has really high CD which is impractical for lane. The per-rank gain of Vortex also isn't that high, so being 2 ranks behind later is a decent tradeoff for stronger laning at early levels.
If you're saying that build for a solo mid AA I don't see a problem with stats there, but a single point in vortex for the small vision at 1500 range that you can gain is useful.
I was referring to duo/tri AA which is much more common than a solo AA. The mana efficiency of vortex is a problem for support AA's - but that's the type that need to use it the most. When teamfights are occurring when a support AA is level 7 and the AA only has 4 points in cold feet and one in his ult, there's usually a moment of "wow, I really wish he had more than just cold feet and his ult"
edit - I think it's been 500-600 games since I've seen a mid AA
Then we're in agreement. I generally get stats as a solo, and I get Vortex/Chilling in duo/trilanes. I wasn't aware that people still got stats at 2 and 4 on support AA.
Already had a sick comeback! Was playing Lina mid vs Tinker, had quite a rough time in lane. Lasers are annoying, but he couldn't cast many. Our team consisted of Tidehunter, Earthshaker, Anti-mage, me and Skeleton King. Opponents were Necrolyte, Clinkz, Doombringer, Axe, Tinker. Early game we were doing well. Up in kills and I was doing ok in cs. But mid game hit after Clinkz got a few kills and he started roaming with Orchid. Our towers fell really damn fast because many people died. We lost a big teamfight, and they got Roshan + pushed into our base. Our top & mid raxes fell, but Tidehunter, Earthshaker and Antimage combo'd their ults into one big boom. It was glorious. With their Clinkz on a 85s death timer, I held the base, nearly died to minions whilst defending our last tier 4 tower, and the rest of my team actually managed to edge out the win. Felt really satisfying!
It honestly feels like I can't do anything about dying in some instances though. Clinkz Orchids me and I'm dead in ~5 hits. Doom ults me and I just die because silenced and the damage ticks all my hp away. What to do against this? I tried building BKB, but it takes such a damn long time to get the money when you get killed all the time. And if I stay in base I'm not getting any money at all.
On February 06 2013 08:48 Doctorbeat wrote: Playing my first DotA2 matches atm. Single draft.
Already had a sick comeback! Was playing Lina mid vs Tinker, had quite a rough time in lane. Lasers are annoying, but he couldn't cast many. Our team consisted of Tidehunter, Earthshaker, Anti-mage, me and Skeleton King. Opponents were Necrolyte, Clinkz, Doombringer, Axe, Tinker. Early game we were doing well. Up in kills and I was doing ok in cs. But mid game hit after Clinkz got a few kills and he started roaming with Orchid. Our towers fell really damn fast because many people died. We lost a big teamfight, and they got Roshan + pushed into our base. Our top & mid raxes fell, but Tidehunter, Earthshaker and Antimage combo'd their ults into one big boom. It was glorious. With their Clinkz on a 85s death timer, I held the base, nearly died to minions whilst defending our last tier 4 tower, and the rest of my team actually managed to edge out the win. Felt really satisfying!
It honestly feels like I can't do anything about dying in some instances though. Clinkz Orchids me and I'm dead in ~5 hits. Doom ults me and I just die because silenced and the damage ticks all my hp away. What to do against this? I tried building BKB, but it takes such a damn long time to get the money when you get killed all the time. And if I stay in base I'm not getting any money at all.
If you're a poor support player you want to make bracers for hitpoints (urn is superior generally if your team doesn't have one already). If you need more slot efficient items then you can pick up a vit booster.
EPT
