On January 17 2013 08:05 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: I'm just pointing out that adding easy mode isn't going to change anything because some people are not going to be as try hard as you unless you get a full stack and clarify your intentions beforehand. Some people play games to have fun rather than trying to get everybody on the team 100% win rates. Playing to win is often at the expense of fun unless your sole desire is to win every game no matter what.
Who has fun losing all the time? No one, thats who.. Everyone plays to win. Thats why we play dota, to own nerds ^^
You can easily have fun while you're losing and not everyone plays to win. The fun isn't sucked out of the game just because you lost the game.
Really? It sucks losing games because two players fight over mid or 2 carries fight over the safelane. Sure it's fun to mess around, you don't have to pick top tier heros all the time or go optimal items. No one is saying that at all. What is NOT FUN is joining a game and having teammates raging before creeps even spawn. It's a headache and frankly makes the game seem more like wasted time than anything else.
I play with friends who are incredibly new to the game very often, it mostly resulst in us losing(70% or so of the time). But it's still fun. I never play for the sake of winning, i play to have fun, that's what games are for me, entertainment. Winning is neat and all and i don't throw games just because and i'll obviously do my best to help my team, but if we lose, whatever. I can still have fun.
Nightstalker is a pretty fun offlane. If you grab a stout shield you can 1v1 almost any ranged support that tries to push you out of lane at level 1 (with void spam). All you need to do is get to ~ level 6-7 by first night and you can leave and go kill kids with just boots and a wand.
On January 17 2013 08:05 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: I'm just pointing out that adding easy mode isn't going to change anything because some people are not going to be as try hard as you unless you get a full stack and clarify your intentions beforehand. Some people play games to have fun rather than trying to get everybody on the team 100% win rates. Playing to win is often at the expense of fun unless your sole desire is to win every game no matter what.
Who has fun losing all the time? No one, thats who.. Everyone plays to win. Thats why we play dota, to own nerds ^^
You can easily have fun while you're losing and not everyone plays to win. The fun isn't sucked out of the game just because you lost the game.
Really? It sucks losing games because two players fight over mid or 2 carries fight over the safelane. Sure it's fun to mess around, you don't have to pick top tier heros all the time or go optimal items. No one is saying that at all. What is NOT FUN is joining a game and having teammates raging before creeps even spawn. It's a headache and frankly makes the game seem more like wasted time than anything else.
On January 17 2013 09:20 KezseN wrote: So for the offlane, what are the good hero options?
At the top of my head: WR, Mirana, Beastmaster, DS?
Not sure if Rubick, or sometimes juggernaut is a good option.
This is assuming the enemy has a good duo pick like PL/KOTL or Sven + Stunner
To beat PL KotL you need some combination that can kill them. They're about sustained harassment not engaging in a man fight.
Any dual stun lane is going to be a try to sneak as much exp as possible lane no matter what hero you're playing. You might get a little farm from ion shell as dark seer, but you shouldn't be getting exp when they can come kill you at any moment.
I think you are confusing me and another poster... I never said anything about EM
I dont think POTM is a good offlane at all, she needs too much farm :/
These guys are for soloing the offlane yea?
Yeah, some are way easier to do in pubs but all are commonly used for solo offlane. Furion and Lone Druid has their own way of doing it by standing at your own tier 1 tower while using bear/treants and pulling the enemy creepwave to you. Like screw up their patching before they reach your creeps. An example would be pulling them between the tier 1 + tier 2 tower and make the creeps follow you all the way to the tower where your hero sits safe.
The rest are pretty straight forward. Clockwerk is one of the more difficult heroes to solo offlane with.
With beastmaster you use boar at level 3 to stack ancients and then clear them with wild axes once you manage to get a soul ring. If the enemy lane is pretty weak and lets you farm then just go for that (although you can still stack for later) but usually thats what you're forced to do.
On January 17 2013 09:56 KezseN wrote: How is Bounty good assuming the opponent warded well? Every last hit he can do would be hard wouldn't it?
WR Is nice too i reckon. Scales alright into late game as well.
Enigma would have to convert creeps and that is all?
Beastmaster would have to use his axes and wild call to spot incoming ganks?
CLinkz can just windwalk away and use his searin arrows to help last hitting?
Hopefully i'm getting this right because i always ward their pull camps to prevent those stacks
Bounty is not a carry. He only needs level 6 to incredibly useful. This means he doesn't need to lasthit much at all, should just try and sit and leech xp. Track is an amazing ability which helps your enitre team gets a lot of gold from every kill you manage to get. Bounty should be roaming a lot after lvl 6 trying to pick off heroes with a little bit of help.
A very common lower level mistake is that they think bounty is supposed to carry but he is really made to gank.
Enigma / Furion / Lone Druid are harder offlane heroes and are kinda weird in pubs. But they work if the players know what they are doing.
Beastmaster tries to leech xp while stacking the ancient. He and tinker are really good ancient-stack killing heroes. Unfortunaly it isnt as good anymore since Valve put a cap on how many times you could stack.
Yeah Clinkz windwalk away, prefer weaver over Clinkz on the solo offlane though. Clinkz invis are very slow in the start and he is supersquishy. Rather see him farming the safelane.
@Firebolt, I didn't forget about WR / Beastmaster, he mentioned them himself. And I had Enigma in my list.
Omni and Undying can both work, I just dont think it's very good.
All Bounty Hunter needs to do is to hit level 6. Any last hits he scores in lane is a bonus, but it's really the track mechanic that allows him to comeback midgame and make his presence felt.
Also, I think PotM isn't that bad of an offlaner. She does decent damage output midgame. It's only her transition towards the late game where she needs too much farm to be relevant.
It's not just Bounty's invis that allows him to off-lane.
He has 315 base MS, 6 base armor, 24 base Strength, and is melee (so benefits from melee Stout block), which makes his level 1 defensive stats among the highest in the game.
Something interesting pointed out on the dev forum.
In DotA 1, the pathing doesn't account for units you don't have vision of blocking your path. In DotA 2, if there's an obstruction, your unit pathing will take you around, even if you do not have vision of said obstruction.
Could be situationally useful.
This bug has been well-known for a very long time and has seen considerable use in competitive play. (Specifically makes it easier to find invisible heroes or juking heroes, and harder to do fissure blocks).
I think Clinkz is only solo laned if you're going offensive on their trilane (or them on yours). He needs farm to do anything and it will be hard to get that if you're offlaning versus a trilane. Unlike bounty hunter he is incredibly squishy.
On January 17 2013 08:05 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: I'm just pointing out that adding easy mode isn't going to change anything because some people are not going to be as try hard as you unless you get a full stack and clarify your intentions beforehand. Some people play games to have fun rather than trying to get everybody on the team 100% win rates. Playing to win is often at the expense of fun unless your sole desire is to win every game no matter what.
Who has fun losing all the time? No one, thats who.. Everyone plays to win. Thats why we play dota, to own nerds ^^
You can easily have fun while you're losing and not everyone plays to win. The fun isn't sucked out of the game just because you lost the game.
Really? It sucks losing games because two players fight over mid or 2 carries fight over the safelane. Sure it's fun to mess around, you don't have to pick top tier heros all the time or go optimal items. No one is saying that at all. What is NOT FUN is joining a game and having teammates raging before creeps even spawn. It's a headache and frankly makes the game seem more like wasted time than anything else.
and adding em isn't going to change that either.
On January 17 2013 09:20 KezseN wrote: So for the offlane, what are the good hero options?
At the top of my head: WR, Mirana, Beastmaster, DS?
Not sure if Rubick, or sometimes juggernaut is a good option.
This is assuming the enemy has a good duo pick like PL/KOTL or Sven + Stunner
To beat PL KotL you need some combination that can kill them. They're about sustained harassment not engaging in a man fight.
Any dual stun lane is going to be a try to sneak as much exp as possible lane no matter what hero you're playing. You might get a little farm from ion shell as dark seer, but you shouldn't be getting exp when they can come kill you at any moment.
I think you are confusing me and another poster... I never said anything about EM
The entire conversation was about how the addition of em would make matchmaking better.
Something interesting pointed out on the dev forum.
In DotA 1, the pathing doesn't account for units you don't have vision of blocking your path. In DotA 2, if there's an obstruction, your unit pathing will take you around, even if you do not have vision of said obstruction.
Could be situationally useful.
This bug has been well-known for a very long time and has seen considerable use in competitive play. (Specifically makes it easier to find invisible heroes or juking heroes, and harder to do fissure blocks).
Aren't there only 3 heroes in the game that use non-Windwalk-based Invis? Everything windwalk based causes you to path through everything anyway.
So the invisibility case only comes up with respect to Sand King, Riki, and Treant.
BH can also just say fuck it and roam anywhere he wants if the lane starts to go badly. You don't need to start ganking at 6, you're still an incredibly good ganker at level 2+.
Also, in terms of offlaning against a typical tri lane or dual lane, having the option to ancient stack or go to your own jungle and farm a bit is incredibly nice to have. But still, you don't need to do everything, you need to just do SOMETHING whether that be farm in lane somehow/roam/ancient stack/jungle/delay pushes.
Something interesting pointed out on the dev forum.
In DotA 1, the pathing doesn't account for units you don't have vision of blocking your path. In DotA 2, if there's an obstruction, your unit pathing will take you around, even if you do not have vision of said obstruction.
Could be situationally useful.
This bug has been well-known for a very long time and has seen considerable use in competitive play. (Specifically makes it easier to find invisible heroes or juking heroes, and harder to do fissure blocks).
Aren't there only 3 heroes in the game that use non-Windwalk-based Invis? Everything windwalk based causes you to path through everything anyway.
So the invisibility case only comes up with respect to Sand King, Riki, and Treant.
There is also Invis Runes Meld skill says nothing about having no collision etc Shadow amulet too
EPT
