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On January 16 2013 18:38 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 18:31 TheKefka wrote:
Can someone explain to me one thing,because it really boggles my mind.
If I have a situation where I'm farming in the easy lane,lets say as radiant and my opponent is solo laning against me and my support.I get off a perfect lane freeze right outta range of my tower and the other guy can't farm at all,if he pokes his head out he'll either wind up dead or take massive damage.Why does every support,in this situation,that I have played with start pulling?All off a sudden I loose my freeze and can't hold the creeps anymore,the tower starts hitting them and than the new wave just pushes forward and gives the other guy experience.
Like is this just people being bad and not rationally thinking or do they need the jungle xp and gold that bad,because if it's just xp than they can just sit in the lane and leech it from there,or even behind the trees.
I can understand it if the enemy leaves the lane altogether than fuck you just start pushing and take the tower,but if he's in the lane still lvl 1 than wouldn't it make more sense to keep him that way?
Just tuned into Maelks stream and the support on the enemy team did the same thing.For the first 3 minutes Maelk couldn't farm at all,couldn't even cross half the lane and suddenly disruptor starts pulling and gyro looses the freeze on the bottom tower lol. If the carry and support both do it right then the lane should still freeze.
Well I'm interested in how you do that.
If I loose a wave because my support is pulling and I'm lvl 3 I won't be able to tank a wave in front of my tower.Even if I move around to kite it there's going to be another wave coming after that will just be too much eventually.
My lane opponent will just walk up to the wave than because I sure can't fight him if there's almost 2 creep waves in front of me.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 16 2013 18:38 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 18:31 TheKefka wrote:
Can someone explain to me one thing,because it really boggles my mind.
If I have a situation where I'm farming in the easy lane,lets say as radiant and my opponent is solo laning against me and my support.I get off a perfect lane freeze right outta range of my tower and the other guy can't farm at all,if he pokes his head out he'll either wind up dead or take massive damage.Why does every support,in this situation,that I have played with start pulling?All off a sudden I loose my freeze and can't hold the creeps anymore,the tower starts hitting them and than the new wave just pushes forward and gives the other guy experience.
Like is this just people being bad and not rationally thinking or do they need the jungle xp and gold that bad,because if it's just xp than they can just sit in the lane and leech it from there,or even behind the trees.
I can understand it if the enemy leaves the lane altogether than fuck you just start pushing and take the tower,but if he's in the lane still lvl 1 than wouldn't it make more sense to keep him that way?
Just tuned into Maelks stream and the support on the enemy team did the same thing.For the first 3 minutes Maelk couldn't farm at all,couldn't even cross half the lane and suddenly disruptor starts pulling and gyro looses the freeze on the bottom tower lol. If the carry and support both do it right then the lane should still freeze.
This.
If you "lose" the freeze, it's because he pulled improperly and let creeps survive the pull. The lane won't push still unless the pull "leaks" creeps.
On January 16 2013 18:41 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 18:38 Kipsate wrote:On January 16 2013 18:31 TheKefka wrote:
Can someone explain to me one thing,because it really boggles my mind.
If I have a situation where I'm farming in the easy lane,lets say as radiant and my opponent is solo laning against me and my support.I get off a perfect lane freeze right outta range of my tower and the other guy can't farm at all,if he pokes his head out he'll either wind up dead or take massive damage.Why does every support,in this situation,that I have played with start pulling?All off a sudden I loose my freeze and can't hold the creeps anymore,the tower starts hitting them and than the new wave just pushes forward and gives the other guy experience.
Like is this just people being bad and not rationally thinking or do they need the jungle xp and gold that bad,because if it's just xp than they can just sit in the lane and leech it from there,or even behind the trees.
I can understand it if the enemy leaves the lane altogether than fuck you just start pushing and take the tower,but if he's in the lane still lvl 1 than wouldn't it make more sense to keep him that way?
Just tuned into Maelks stream and the support on the enemy team did the same thing.For the first 3 minutes Maelk couldn't farm at all,couldn't even cross half the lane and suddenly disruptor starts pulling and gyro looses the freeze on the bottom tower lol. If the carry and support both do it right then the lane should still freeze. Well I'm interested in how you do that. If I loose a wave because my support is pulling and I'm lvl 3 I won't be able to tank a wave in front of my tower.Even if I move around to kite it there's going to be another wave coming after that will just be too much eventually. My lane opponent will just walk up to the wave than because I sure can't fight him if there's almost 2 creep waves in front of me.
There will be no wave for him to get because it should be killed by the pull. He'd have to wait for the NEXT creep wave to get XP.
The only way there will be creeps for him to get/for the lane to push is if a) the creep pull lets some creeps survive (support didn't stack or double), or b) you let TOO many creeps build up when you were freezing the lane, and the creep wave doesn't die to the tower by the time the next wave comes (only should happen if you let almost an entire wave build up rather than controlling the creeps such that your creep wave and the enemy creep wave die at almost the same time).
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On January 16 2013 18:38 Gosi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 17:56 Slomo wrote:
Isn't there a menue option like "Enable shop hotkeys" ON/OFF ? Yeah but isn't that for some kind of new grid system from Valve? Like you shop with the numbers, 1 for the top item, 2 for the item under 1 etc etc. Fucking impossible to learn.
Forgive my ignorance but how is it impossible to learn if they just go down in order from 1 to 0
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On January 16 2013 18:41 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 18:38 Kipsate wrote:On January 16 2013 18:31 TheKefka wrote:
Can someone explain to me one thing,because it really boggles my mind.
If I have a situation where I'm farming in the easy lane,lets say as radiant and my opponent is solo laning against me and my support.I get off a perfect lane freeze right outta range of my tower and the other guy can't farm at all,if he pokes his head out he'll either wind up dead or take massive damage.Why does every support,in this situation,that I have played with start pulling?All off a sudden I loose my freeze and can't hold the creeps anymore,the tower starts hitting them and than the new wave just pushes forward and gives the other guy experience.
Like is this just people being bad and not rationally thinking or do they need the jungle xp and gold that bad,because if it's just xp than they can just sit in the lane and leech it from there,or even behind the trees.
I can understand it if the enemy leaves the lane altogether than fuck you just start pushing and take the tower,but if he's in the lane still lvl 1 than wouldn't it make more sense to keep him that way?
Just tuned into Maelks stream and the support on the enemy team did the same thing.For the first 3 minutes Maelk couldn't farm at all,couldn't even cross half the lane and suddenly disruptor starts pulling and gyro looses the freeze on the bottom tower lol. If the carry and support both do it right then the lane should still freeze. Well I'm interested in how you do that. If I loose a wave because my support is pulling and I'm lvl 3 I won't be able to tank a wave in front of my tower.Even if I move around to kite it there's going to be another wave coming after that will just be too much eventually. My lane opponent will just walk up to the wave than because I sure can't fight him if there's almost 2 creep waves in front of me.
Ideally you'll open stout shield so you can tank the wave. You open regen so that you can use it all on this very purpose as a safe laner. You have to react to how your support is pulling though. If he sucks he will indeed screw up your wave, but you can compensate by saving part of the creep wave. If your support is getting the entire creep wave killed (either by stacking and pulling or double pulling, doesn't matter) then you can kite the creeps into the tower and still freeze the lane. If he isn't getting all the creeps killed (aka he sucks and is screwing you over) then you need to tank the creepwave outside the tower radius. Then when the creeps rejoin the battle you can resume freezing the lane as you normally would. If you're getting a 0 xp zone on the hard laner then all the regen you and the support opened should be used for your tower tankage. Ideally you will also have a lane ward so you can go kill their offlaner should he decide to cross into no man's land.
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
I usually ask my supports (if I know them) to tell me when they stack before they even make the pull. Once they tell me they're about to stack I prepare by autoattacking more, pushing the lane a little that way.
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United States47024 Posts
If you freeze the lane perfectly there should be barely any "build-up" either way. When the enemy creep wave dies, the only creep(s) that should remain is the ranged creep, which you can kill just as the next waves arrive.
So when your support pulls, there will be 1 fresh wave of creeps that enters tower, plus maybe an extra ranged creep. You and your tower will kill the creep wave, and the pull will kill your creep wave. So the next time creeps meet, it will be a fresh wave that meets right in front of your tower again.
It should never be the case where you're tanking 2 waves. If that's the case you let too many creeps build up.
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aight tnx for the explanation
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Normally the Problem is that the Pulled creeps don't finnish up the full wave because the Support did not denie/stack enough and you end up with 1 ranged and 1-2 more melee creeps for a wave. Freezing that gets hard...
But what I realized... Most supports (and carries) don't even realize that they should try to freeze the lane. It's always "hurrdurr" push... And if for once you are with a player that understands this there is for sure some guy on your team that feels like this lane should be pushed because it is too close to your tower -.-.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Don't be suprised that pubs are unable to do it, pubs rarely if ever can freeze lane in coordination with pulls due to either the support or the carry not doing it properly.
Sometimes its at the point where it was better not to block their pull camp because lane freezing with no pulling is the easiest thing in the world.
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On January 16 2013 18:55 Skullflower wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 18:38 Gosi wrote:On January 16 2013 17:56 Slomo wrote:
Isn't there a menue option like "Enable shop hotkeys" ON/OFF ? Yeah but isn't that for some kind of new grid system from Valve? Like you shop with the numbers, 1 for the top item, 2 for the item under 1 etc etc. Fucking impossible to learn. Forgive my ignorance but how is it impossible to learn if they just go down in order from 1 to 0
Well since everything is under different tabs you will have to remember in which tab you have what. Take Claymore and Ogre Club as an example, both of them are hotkey 9. To buy them you would have to press W9 or E9. So for basic items you will have to remember the number and the letter of the tab it is in (QWER). And for upgrades you will have to do the same but instead of QWER it is ASDFGH and a number. So in the heat of the moment it is just a mess and not practical at all like hotkeys should be.
Probably not impossible to learn but I think it's bad and you just better of with quick buying.
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On January 16 2013 18:41 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 18:38 Kipsate wrote:On January 16 2013 18:31 TheKefka wrote:
Can someone explain to me one thing,because it really boggles my mind.
If I have a situation where I'm farming in the easy lane,lets say as radiant and my opponent is solo laning against me and my support.I get off a perfect lane freeze right outta range of my tower and the other guy can't farm at all,if he pokes his head out he'll either wind up dead or take massive damage.Why does every support,in this situation,that I have played with start pulling?All off a sudden I loose my freeze and can't hold the creeps anymore,the tower starts hitting them and than the new wave just pushes forward and gives the other guy experience.
Like is this just people being bad and not rationally thinking or do they need the jungle xp and gold that bad,because if it's just xp than they can just sit in the lane and leech it from there,or even behind the trees.
I can understand it if the enemy leaves the lane altogether than fuck you just start pushing and take the tower,but if he's in the lane still lvl 1 than wouldn't it make more sense to keep him that way?
Just tuned into Maelks stream and the support on the enemy team did the same thing.For the first 3 minutes Maelk couldn't farm at all,couldn't even cross half the lane and suddenly disruptor starts pulling and gyro looses the freeze on the bottom tower lol. If the carry and support both do it right then the lane should still freeze. Well I'm interested in how you do that. If I loose a wave because my support is pulling and I'm lvl 3 I won't be able to tank a wave in front of my tower.Even if I move around to kite it there's going to be another wave coming after that will just be too much eventually. My lane opponent will just walk up to the wave than because I sure can't fight him if there's almost 2 creep waves in front of me.
like people have said above.
PMS is a good item for tanking creeps near tower. If you are range then it shouldnt even be a problem. From my experience is that it is usually the carry who doesnt have the experience to react when the support is pulling or he is not comfortable when support is pulling .
The thing with pulling is that,
1) the support needs to pull at the right timing (when the creep wave is pushing near oppo tower, so the oppo is losing exp either way if he stayed on lane or go to the support)
more often the pulling timing may not be perfect but you can help the lane control by
2) be very aggresive on the oppo, forcing the oppo to deal with you so he couldnt go to your support
3) stay healthy by playing passively, only eating exp and last hit near your tower
Either way the hardlaner is losing exp, you should be able to 1v1 any oppo who is equal or lower level than you in the first place (with as much as last hit/deny when you can). In the case of 3), you are only sacrificing your last hits temporarily but it will be compensated by killing the oppo as soon your support come out (both of you should be at least same or higher levels than the oppo).
i can find some replay if you want some example, from top of my head is https://dotabuff.com/matches/100091270, morph just own magnus right there on the lane.
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You don't even need PMS for creep tanking. Stout shield has practically the same stats (only missing .86 armor) if you're just tanking creeps. PMS really shines when you're getting harassed by heroes heavily.
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There honestly has to be a better shortened version of poor man's shield.
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On January 16 2013 20:29 Itsmedudeman wrote:
There honestly has to be a better shortened version of poor man's shield.
Notice how the only female hero you get PMS on is Naga, that little whining bitch
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On January 16 2013 20:30 Qbek wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 20:29 Itsmedudeman wrote:
There honestly has to be a better shortened version of poor man's shield. Notice how the only female hero you get PMS on is Naga, that little whining bitch
pa
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are battlebonuses stackable? i mean if i stack those 2h battlebonuses all together 
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On January 16 2013 20:42 gaymon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 20:30 Qbek wrote:On January 16 2013 20:29 Itsmedudeman wrote:
There honestly has to be a better shortened version of poor man's shield. Notice how the only female hero you get PMS on is Naga, that little whining bitch pa
Oh yeah, there's even a comic about her
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On January 16 2013 19:13 Kipsate wrote:
Don't be suprised that pubs are unable to do it, pubs rarely if ever can freeze lane in coordination with pulls due to either the support or the carry not doing it properly.
Sometimes its at the point where it was better not to block their pull camp because lane freezing with no pulling is the easiest thing in the world.
I agree with Kipsate. Most "supports" in pubs do not practice double stacking before pulling or chaining of camps. They nearly always single pull which gives the enemy offlaner a ton of exp.
Proper pulling should result in that entire creep wave being killed by the Neutral Creeps, denying the enemy offlaner an entire creep wave of exp & potential gold....with the tower taking no(or little) damage.
Proper laning should be when lanes freeze in position, but that is very hard to achieve when your teammates have no idea what are they doing....or the purpose behind pulling.
They just copy what pros do without having any idea whatsoever is that a good idea.For example I have met people who just pull every single creep waves to jungle, despite the enemy pushing down on the tower resulting in the tower taking a ton of damage and being destroyed extremely early. Even after repeated requests that he should NOT pull the wave in order for the tower to be able to survive, he ignores me and continue doing so at every XX:15. That tower fell fast and resulted in map control over the jungle being lost....where he proceeds to continue "jungling" and dying every single time.
Reason? Selfishness. He wants the gold & exp from the jungle. But is it worth it?! Blah.
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I never get Stout/PMS/Vanguard on ranged heroes. It seems a waste and not cost-effective. Although, I almost always get Stout/PMS/Vanguard on melee heroes, even Ogre Magi, Nyx, etc.. I know it's odd but seems worth it to me.
BTW, a few posts back mentioned about changing recommended items on shop. How to do that?! I want to modify my recommend item lists with each hero if possible.
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On January 16 2013 21:23 trinxified wrote:I never get Stout/PMS/Vanguard on ranged heroes. It seems a waste and not cost-effective. Although, I almost always get Stout/PMS/Vanguard on melee heroes, even Ogre Magi, Nyx, etc.. I know it's odd but seems worth it to me. BTW, a few posts back mentioned about changing recommended items on shop. How to do that?! I want to modify my recommend item lists with each hero if possible.
You can try this program to edit items out of game, its slightly buggy but works for me 
http://code.google.com/p/d2ric/
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EPT
