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On December 04 2012 03:36 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 03:34 Firebolt145 wrote:On December 04 2012 03:31 Cool Cat wrote:On December 04 2012 03:25 SKC wrote:
When someone plays with a shitty carry, missing last hits and dieing needlessly, the first thing on their mind is "We lost because we had no decent carry. If I don't play carry, we lose the game."
When someone plays with shitty support, no wards and no ganks, the first thing on their mind is "We lost because we had no decent supports. But if I don't play carry, we lose the game."
If you believe supports don't have the same impact on the game, why do you expect other people to believe it? And I don't think I've seen a single person that believe their were consistently the worse player in the game. I've met hundreds that believe they are ussually the best. And what does everyone say when that guy comes to the forum asking how to get out of "MMR hell with stupid teammates"? Pick a carry*, not a support.
This issue will never end until:
A) People suddenly start believing they can have as much impact on the game as a support as they do as a carry.
or
B) People stop believing they are always the best player on the random party and therefore must carry the team to victory.
Both seem highly unlikely.
*"Solo mid midgame hero" also applies, but the general idea is the same.
I've consistently believed that I was the worst player in the game multiple times, when either queueing with players I know are better than me, or playing in inhouse leagues with known players. You're the best player on your team 20% of the time, and the worst player on your team 20% of the time. Accept it and embrace it, and stop flaming those people that are having bad games, they have similar MMR to you for a reason. ^_^ If you've played enough games and the MMR system is good enough to put you where you belong*
Which isn't over 200 games, like some people believe. If you are really good, you get to very high in less than 10 games. If you have 50+ games, you shouldn't be too far off from your perfect MMR. You hardly see people with only 10 games complaining about it.
Ask anyone with smurfs, how hard it is to keep them down. Losing to bad players is surprisingly hard.
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
On December 04 2012 03:36 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 03:34 Firebolt145 wrote:On December 04 2012 03:31 Cool Cat wrote:On December 04 2012 03:25 SKC wrote:
When someone plays with a shitty carry, missing last hits and dieing needlessly, the first thing on their mind is "We lost because we had no decent carry. If I don't play carry, we lose the game."
When someone plays with shitty support, no wards and no ganks, the first thing on their mind is "We lost because we had no decent supports. But if I don't play carry, we lose the game."
If you believe supports don't have the same impact on the game, why do you expect other people to believe it? And I don't think I've seen a single person that believe their were consistently the worse player in the game. I've met hundreds that believe they are ussually the best. And what does everyone say when that guy comes to the forum asking how to get out of "MMR hell with stupid teammates"? Pick a carry*, not a support.
This issue will never end until:
A) People suddenly start believing they can have as much impact on the game as a support as they do as a carry.
or
B) People stop believing they are always the best player on the random party and therefore must carry the team to victory.
Both seem highly unlikely.
*"Solo mid midgame hero" also applies, but the general idea is the same.
I've consistently believed that I was the worst player in the game multiple times, when either queueing with players I know are better than me, or playing in inhouse leagues with known players. You're the best player on your team 20% of the time, and the worst player on your team 20% of the time. Accept it and embrace it, and stop flaming those people that are having bad games, they have similar MMR to you for a reason. ^_^ If you've played enough games and the MMR system is good enough to put you where you belong*
Stop encouraging excuses for reasons for people to be mad. Make love not war! ^_^
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On December 04 2012 03:04 Numy wrote:
People are still in the old mindset in which supports can't really have impact on game apart from warding. These days supports have to be active on the map and influence it in any way you can. If anything supports have to do what others do but without any of the farm.
very true, when I see some people support they never leave their lane 24/7, well behind the creepwave and never in any threatening position whatsoever,doing some half-assed harrassment and denying, then occassionally stacking and pulling, with no idea about lane control.
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Actually, I'd love to be the worst player on my team more often. You don't learn from stomping pubs and/or trying to teach noobs, you learn from getting "schooled". Its called that for a reason 
It can be hard to tell if people are "better" than you when there is a simple disagreement between team-mates though 
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On December 04 2012 03:38 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 03:36 PrinceXizor wrote:On December 04 2012 03:34 Firebolt145 wrote:On December 04 2012 03:31 Cool Cat wrote:On December 04 2012 03:25 SKC wrote:
When someone plays with a shitty carry, missing last hits and dieing needlessly, the first thing on their mind is "We lost because we had no decent carry. If I don't play carry, we lose the game."
When someone plays with shitty support, no wards and no ganks, the first thing on their mind is "We lost because we had no decent supports. But if I don't play carry, we lose the game."
If you believe supports don't have the same impact on the game, why do you expect other people to believe it? And I don't think I've seen a single person that believe their were consistently the worse player in the game. I've met hundreds that believe they are ussually the best. And what does everyone say when that guy comes to the forum asking how to get out of "MMR hell with stupid teammates"? Pick a carry*, not a support.
This issue will never end until:
A) People suddenly start believing they can have as much impact on the game as a support as they do as a carry.
or
B) People stop believing they are always the best player on the random party and therefore must carry the team to victory.
Both seem highly unlikely.
*"Solo mid midgame hero" also applies, but the general idea is the same.
I've consistently believed that I was the worst player in the game multiple times, when either queueing with players I know are better than me, or playing in inhouse leagues with known players. You're the best player on your team 20% of the time, and the worst player on your team 20% of the time. Accept it and embrace it, and stop flaming those people that are having bad games, they have similar MMR to you for a reason. ^_^ If you've played enough games and the MMR system is good enough to put you where you belong* Which isn't over 200 games, like some people believe. If you are really good, you get to very high in less than 10 games. If you have 50+ games, you shouldn't be too far off from your perfect MMR. You hardly see people with only 10 games complaining about it.
unless major mmr changes occured in the last 3 months (since my last alt account creation) you can't get very high in 10 games. I went 16-0 on my latest alt all games hard carry with like 500-700gpm complete stomps and it didn't put that account into very high yet.
I think they may have made it slightly harder to rank up, but it's probably for the best. I'm not sure it's just winrate though unless valve has said that it is, I have 1 very active account and 2 semi-active accounts ranging from 51.4% to 59% win rate and all in 'very high', but I've seen friends with <50% still in very high. I suppose you could have a losing record and still be very high depending on which games you win/lose to maximize your mmr point gain.
Not really sure, I'm hardly an expert on mmr ladders, I do feel valves is pretty bad though and the lack of transparency is pretty awful.
I think it was Yango who had this idea but I think quality of games would instantly increase if we had seperate ladders.
We need something like:
EM Mode Unranked
Normal Unranked
Normal Ranked
and then some 5v5 team ranked ladders.
Right now the entire community is put into 1 giant pool. We get goofy players, tryhards, newbs and pros all getting sloted into the same games which is why it feels the mmr system doesn't work as well as it did in HoN imo.
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Yeah i'm 100% happy in every game where i'm the worst player on my team. because i know i adapt. if i make mistakes, i stop making them. i can't say the same about everyone else. Though i struggle to adapt when my mistake is "i trusted my teammate to fight and not run". I'm a terrible solo queue player because i always trust my team to do everything correct.
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On December 04 2012 03:49 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 03:38 SKC wrote:On December 04 2012 03:36 PrinceXizor wrote:On December 04 2012 03:34 Firebolt145 wrote:On December 04 2012 03:31 Cool Cat wrote:On December 04 2012 03:25 SKC wrote:
When someone plays with a shitty carry, missing last hits and dieing needlessly, the first thing on their mind is "We lost because we had no decent carry. If I don't play carry, we lose the game."
When someone plays with shitty support, no wards and no ganks, the first thing on their mind is "We lost because we had no decent supports. But if I don't play carry, we lose the game."
If you believe supports don't have the same impact on the game, why do you expect other people to believe it? And I don't think I've seen a single person that believe their were consistently the worse player in the game. I've met hundreds that believe they are ussually the best. And what does everyone say when that guy comes to the forum asking how to get out of "MMR hell with stupid teammates"? Pick a carry*, not a support.
This issue will never end until:
A) People suddenly start believing they can have as much impact on the game as a support as they do as a carry.
or
B) People stop believing they are always the best player on the random party and therefore must carry the team to victory.
Both seem highly unlikely.
*"Solo mid midgame hero" also applies, but the general idea is the same.
I've consistently believed that I was the worst player in the game multiple times, when either queueing with players I know are better than me, or playing in inhouse leagues with known players. You're the best player on your team 20% of the time, and the worst player on your team 20% of the time. Accept it and embrace it, and stop flaming those people that are having bad games, they have similar MMR to you for a reason. ^_^ If you've played enough games and the MMR system is good enough to put you where you belong* Which isn't over 200 games, like some people believe. If you are really good, you get to very high in less than 10 games. If you have 50+ games, you shouldn't be too far off from your perfect MMR. You hardly see people with only 10 games complaining about it. unless major mmr changes occured in the last 3 months (since my last alt account creation) you can't get very high in 10 games. I went 16-0 on my latest alt all games hard carry with like 500-700gpm complete stomps and it didn't put that account into very high yet. I think they may have made it slightly harder to rank up, but it's probably for the best. I'm not sure it's just winrate though unless valve has said that it is, I have 1 very active account and 2 semi-active accounts ranging from 51.4% to 59% win rate and all in 'very high', but I've seen friends with <50% still in very high. I suppose you could have a losing record and still be very high depending on which games you win/lose to maximize your mmr point gain. Not really sure, I'm hardly an expert on mmr ladders, I do feel valves is pretty bad though and the lack of transparency is pretty awful. I think it was Yango who had this idea but I think quality of games would instantly increase if we had seperate ladders. We need something like: EM Mode Unranked Normal Unranked Normal Ranked and then some 5v5 team ranked ladders. Right now the entire community is put into 1 giant pool. We get goofy players, tryhards, newbs and pros all getting sloted into the same games which is why it feels the mmr system doesn't work as well as it did in HoN imo.
I was sure I had heard about 10 games before on TL, so I did a quick search and found this:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255359¤tpage=1510#30197
"Even now smurfs don't work very well because the DotA MMR is actually extremely volatile, a friend of mine made a smurf and was back in very high within 10 games."
So yeah, it's "one of my friends" kind of story, so I can't really say it's 100% acurate, but it still shouldn't take long.
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It's actually a lot more difficult to get to (and stay) in very high MMR right now. had a smurf get to very high after about 50 wins. lost 1 game, and dropped to normal. Straight to normal. if you lose a game in an MMR bracket you are the lowest player in, it cripples your MMR under the current system.
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On December 04 2012 03:50 PrinceXizor wrote:
Yeah i'm 100% happy in every game where i'm the worst player on my team. because i know i adapt. if i make mistakes, i stop making them. i can't say the same about everyone else. Though i struggle to adapt when my mistake is "i trusted my teammate to fight and not run". I'm a terrible solo queue player because i always trust my team to do everything correct.
Yep, thats always the worst. 5 people gathering to push, I go "Guys, I've got ult, we can do this... Okay I'm going!" -> 4 people initiate, get an early kill, then teamfight implodes and you lost it 4-1 -> Faceless Void just TP'ed to farm a diff lane. "Hey, what happened to void?" "Bot lane had farm, you guys went without me". He TP'd after I said go
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Does Naix still deal 2 instances of damage per hit in Dota 2?
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From my experience, it takes around 4-5 straight wins for high and 15-20 or so for very high on a smurf, though something like 10 is possible if you either clicked one of the experienced option when making the smurf or are queuing with friends.
On December 04 2012 04:06 Appendix wrote:
Does Naix still deal 2 instances of damage per hit in Dota 2?
It does not appear so, the bonus damage is added to the attack and stacks with crit
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On December 04 2012 03:43 Gak2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 03:04 Numy wrote:
People are still in the old mindset in which supports can't really have impact on game apart from warding. These days supports have to be active on the map and influence it in any way you can. If anything supports have to do what others do but without any of the farm. very true, when I see some people support they never leave their lane 24/7, well behind the creepwave and never in any threatening position whatsoever,doing some half-assed harrassment and denying, then occassionally stacking and pulling, with no idea about lane control.
That describes supports in my MMR. As one of them though I think it's quite hard to improve out of, lazy baby sitting is easy and safe while roaming is scary.
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Also the pub meta of "if you have a jungle it counts as the support for that lane" is kinda to blame for the support babysit mentality as well.
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On December 04 2012 04:10 durecell wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 03:43 Gak2 wrote:On December 04 2012 03:04 Numy wrote:
People are still in the old mindset in which supports can't really have impact on game apart from warding. These days supports have to be active on the map and influence it in any way you can. If anything supports have to do what others do but without any of the farm. very true, when I see some people support they never leave their lane 24/7, well behind the creepwave and never in any threatening position whatsoever,doing some half-assed harrassment and denying, then occassionally stacking and pulling, with no idea about lane control. That describes supports in my MMR. As one of them though I think it's quite hard to improve out of, lazy baby sitting is easy and safe while roaming is scary.
I see this a lot on my smurf (includes pugs from TL). So much so that I almost always decide to just go Furion and jungle so I don't get hindered by their play.
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On December 04 2012 04:07 Kupon3ss wrote:From my experience, it takes around 4-5 straight wins for high and 15-20 or so for very high on a smurf, though something like 10 is possible if you either clicked one of the experienced option when making the smurf or are queuing with friends. Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 04:06 Appendix wrote:
Does Naix still deal 2 instances of damage per hit in Dota 2? It does not appear so, the bonus damage is added to the attack and stacks with crit
I wish it did though -.- would be better against TA.
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On December 04 2012 04:26 Pseudoku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 04:07 Kupon3ss wrote:From my experience, it takes around 4-5 straight wins for high and 15-20 or so for very high on a smurf, though something like 10 is possible if you either clicked one of the experienced option when making the smurf or are queuing with friends. On December 04 2012 04:06 Appendix wrote:
Does Naix still deal 2 instances of damage per hit in Dota 2? It does not appear so, the bonus damage is added to the attack and stacks with crit I wish it did though -.- would be better against TA.
Yes, it's better with mjollnir too
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United States47024 Posts
On December 04 2012 04:26 Pseudoku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 04:07 Kupon3ss wrote:From my experience, it takes around 4-5 straight wins for high and 15-20 or so for very high on a smurf, though something like 10 is possible if you either clicked one of the experienced option when making the smurf or are queuing with friends. On December 04 2012 04:06 Appendix wrote:
Does Naix still deal 2 instances of damage per hit in Dota 2? It does not appear so, the bonus damage is added to the attack and stacks with crit I wish it did though -.- would be better against TA.
It's not the only thing that got consolidated into one damage instance--part of why she's so much stronger in DotA 2.
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On December 04 2012 03:04 Numy wrote:
People are still in the old mindset in which supports can't really have impact on game apart from warding. These days supports have to be active on the map and influence it in any way you can. If anything supports have to do what others do but without any of the farm.
And more often you see team needs the support to kill for them. You ward, you gank, you gave your life to your team and then team still need you to carry them.
I dislike very much of the 'position' system back then because dota to me can work in any form with any line up. However, i feel like it is the most efficient system for a ladder like system as in dota2 (MM system) matched 10 similar skill people together in one game which technically it makes your game to be near CW-like games and THEN people dont have a clue how to play X hero on X position.
Simply put, using one mmr for a team orientated game with 100+ heroes just doesn't work.
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On December 04 2012 05:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 04:26 Pseudoku wrote:On December 04 2012 04:07 Kupon3ss wrote:From my experience, it takes around 4-5 straight wins for high and 15-20 or so for very high on a smurf, though something like 10 is possible if you either clicked one of the experienced option when making the smurf or are queuing with friends. On December 04 2012 04:06 Appendix wrote:
Does Naix still deal 2 instances of damage per hit in Dota 2? It does not appear so, the bonus damage is added to the attack and stacks with crit I wish it did though -.- would be better against TA. It's not the only thing that got consolidated into one damage instance--part of why she's so much stronger in DotA 2.
no more stop spamming greater bashes, or empowered haste (pre sb change)
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I dunno, I agree TA got some ninja buffs due to damage instances being consolidated, and I agree that she doesn't need them (at all), but what bothers me is still Centaur. And to an extent drow, but really Centaur. Maybe I'm spoiled due to how fast recent patches have been, but I really want 6.76C or something to reduce the global presence of both heroes.
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EPT
