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United States47024 Posts
On December 04 2012 00:49 red_b wrote:
I was talking about playing with a stack of people.
Obviously I have no expectations of good teams in solo MM.
The sad thing is that I want to play roles that aren't normally the ones I play once in a while but I feel compelled to rice constantly because the people I know are too nice to say "no, I will do that until you demonstrate you have some skill" so either I do it or we lose the majority of our games.
I don't like playing alone and I like including new people in our group as a general rule, but it disappoints me that at least 75% of them only want to play hard carry and then 90% of those people are absolutely horrendous at it. I don't want to play like Im by myself; if I did then I would just play alone.
See, the issues go hand in hand though.
If nobody plays 4th/5th position in pubs, why would you expect a random new person your friends find to have played 4th/5th position?
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Its just not funny to rely on someone when you soloqueue.
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On December 04 2012 01:07 Velr wrote:
In my experience there aren't really "to many" carries.
There are just too many Pos 1-3's in general and not enough 5's. and who is to blame? 4/5 in pubs is just 100% rolling dice and to get good at it you really need to have a decent team already else you can't practice it (at least not "seriously" because support does just not work "alone").
Disagree. Carry by my definition is a "hero that will greatly benefit from farm and items". Lets compare a faceless void and a CM. If a CM gets no farm, she still is useful and if she gets lots of farm, she can even be more useful. In comparison a faceless void with no farm will hardly contribute to a fight. Sure you can chrono and timewalk but apart from that you aint going to get much done.
What I mean is, picking certain heroes automatically slot you into the higher positions and will leave you gimped if you choose to play in positions 4/5. So yes, there can be "too many" carries in your team.
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On December 03 2012 21:58 Gosi wrote:
Ok, time for some theorycrafting.
Me and my friend had a smaller discussion today and I'm curious what your answers would be. So imagine if there was a bot that would play dota 100% perfectly and maximize the potential of every hero (like Automaton 2000 bot in sc2) and then replace one player in a top tier game. What hero would be the absolute deadliest for the opposing team?
My friend said Meepo because he think Meepo has the biggest skill cap and it would be just insane with a Meepo that would play with unlimited APM and also have the ability to last hit like no one else.
Me myself couldn't decide between SK or ES. My reasoing is that a SK/ES being played aboslutely perfect stunning as many as possible every time and maximize the damage with ultimates because of perfect positoning and reflexes would be just devastating. With those heroes the bot could also place perfect Fissure and Burrowstrike's as an escape mechanism for his team when they are in disadvantage and out of positon etc.
So a carry would get every last hit, caster would hit everything perfectly.
Medusa might be one because she's supposed to be able to dodge when she transforms.
Tinker with instant hex/cyclone animation cancel march laser rocket would be beyond most people. Even the best players switch from going march/rocket/rearm to just item spam rearm.
WR that not only hits every shackle, but does so at the smallest window would be very scary.
Enchantress that pulls every camp or a broodmother that micros every individual spiderling to safe line pull everything to farm all the supports would be subtler, but dominant.
And maybe magnataur with perfect skewers all the time.
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
On December 04 2012 01:28 igotmyown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 21:58 Gosi wrote:
Ok, time for some theorycrafting.
Me and my friend had a smaller discussion today and I'm curious what your answers would be. So imagine if there was a bot that would play dota 100% perfectly and maximize the potential of every hero (like Automaton 2000 bot in sc2) and then replace one player in a top tier game. What hero would be the absolute deadliest for the opposing team?
My friend said Meepo because he think Meepo has the biggest skill cap and it would be just insane with a Meepo that would play with unlimited APM and also have the ability to last hit like no one else.
Me myself couldn't decide between SK or ES. My reasoing is that a SK/ES being played aboslutely perfect stunning as many as possible every time and maximize the damage with ultimates because of perfect positoning and reflexes would be just devastating. With those heroes the bot could also place perfect Fissure and Burrowstrike's as an escape mechanism for his team when they are in disadvantage and out of positon etc. So a carry would get every last hit, caster would hit everything perfectly. Medusa might be one because she's supposed to be able to dodge when she transforms. Tinker with instant hex/cyclone animation cancel march laser rocket would be beyond most people. Even the best players switch from going march/rocket/rearm to just item spam rearm.WR that not only hits every shackle, but does so at the smallest window would be very scary. Enchantress that pulls every camp or a broodmother that micros every individual spiderling to safe line pull everything to farm all the supports would be subtler, but dominant. And maybe magnataur with perfect skewers all the time.
Biggest reason for this is because item casts don't have animations, whereas laser and march both have relatively long cast animations. When you're entirely focused on perma sheeping someone, you don't want to risk casting a laser/march sometimes. It's another reason why a Dagon 5 is so good lategame.
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United States47024 Posts
WR that not only hits every shackle, but does so at the smallest window would be very scary.
See this starts to get into a semantics question of whether you consider perfect prediction of a player's movement 1 second into the future (which is what's requires to hit "perfect" shackles every time) within the ability of an AI.
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oh my...yesterday i wanted to scout ursa doing rosh with venges wave of terror, and i just happened to get the freaking last hit : D is this of use for some dota movie makers?
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On December 04 2012 01:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +WR that not only hits every shackle, but does so at the smallest window would be very scary. See this starts to get into a semantics question of whether you consider perfect prediction of a player's movement 1 second into the future (which is what's requires to hit "perfect" shackles every time) within the ability of an AI.
Well, the original post in question talked about 100% perfection.
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On December 04 2012 01:07 Velr wrote:
In my experience there aren't really "to many" carries.
There are just too many Pos 1-3's in general and not enough 5's. and who is to blame? 4/5 in pubs is just 100% rolling dice and to get good at it you really need to have a decent team already else you can't practice it (at least not "seriously" because support does just not work "alone").
I actually disagree with this. I have been playing a lot of support (practicing my bane and lion right now), and it's gotten me to a higher elo than I think I would otherwise be at. I'm not very good, but MMR has been matching me with people who know how to carry reasonably well, and better than I probably could in most situations. For the last twenty or thirty games I've played I've picked support, stacked, pulled, helped my lane-partner farm, buy chick/upgrade, ward whore, buy dust/sentries, counter-ward, and gank, all while letting carries farm (I end most of these games under 50cs, something I should try to improve upon eg using random jungle spawns) and I've actually been having a pretty decent time doing it. Maybe I'm getting lucky, but I actually feel like it's positively affecting the team to have someone in that position. Like I said, I'm still pretty bad. But I feel like having someone in the 5 position who actually gives a shit really helps a pub team, despite a lack of overall effective co-ordination.
At low ELO I would never do this (you gotta carry that shit), but it feels like it makes a difference once you hit higher MMR ratings.
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On December 04 2012 01:50 whoso wrote:
oh my...yesterday i wanted to scout ursa doing rosh with venges wave of terror, and i just happened to get the freaking last hit : D is this of use for some dota movie makers?
should def submit it to wodota.
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On December 04 2012 01:27 Crissaegrim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:07 Velr wrote:
In my experience there aren't really "to many" carries.
There are just too many Pos 1-3's in general and not enough 5's. and who is to blame? 4/5 in pubs is just 100% rolling dice and to get good at it you really need to have a decent team already else you can't practice it (at least not "seriously" because support does just not work "alone").
Disagree. Carry by my definition is a "hero that will greatly benefit from farm and items". Lets compare a faceless void and a CM. If a CM gets no farm, she still is useful and if she gets lots of farm, she can even be more useful. In comparison a faceless void with no farm will hardly contribute to a fight. Sure you can chrono and timewalk but apart from that you aint going to get much done. What I mean is, picking certain heroes automatically slot you into the higher positions and will leave you gimped if you choose to play in positions 4/5. So yes, there can be "too many" carries in your team.
No?
A Carry is a hero that gets really, really strong if he achieves a certain level of farm.
CM, while getting stronger, can't ever dominate similary farmed carries/semicarries.
So to get a CM working you need teammates making it worth to sacrifice theoretical lategame power for early/mid advantages. Which, especially on low level, is not worth it. Therefore you don't see many supports expect when playing on an allready decent level and thats why there aren't as many "good" support players.
In short it's not worth it until you are allready at a decent level and personally I find it hard to play and hard to practise while not being very rewarding because you are nearly never "the guy" that obviously won that game. Which is fine when playing with mates seeing your "strat" work out.
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Just randomed meepo for the first time. It was okay, not as intensive labor as Chen.
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On December 04 2012 01:53 BallinWitStalin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:07 Velr wrote:
In my experience there aren't really "to many" carries.
There are just too many Pos 1-3's in general and not enough 5's. and who is to blame? 4/5 in pubs is just 100% rolling dice and to get good at it you really need to have a decent team already else you can't practice it (at least not "seriously" because support does just not work "alone").
I actually disagree with this. I have been playing a lot of support (practicing my bane and lion right now), and it's gotten me to a higher elo than I think I would otherwise be at. I'm not very good, but MMR has been matching me with people who know how to carry reasonably well, and better than I probably could in most situations. For the last twenty or thirty games I've played I've picked support, stacked, pulled, helped my lane-partner farm, buy chick/upgrade, ward whore, buy dust/sentries, counter-ward, and gank, all while letting carries farm (I end most of these games under 50cs, something I should try to improve upon eg using random jungle spawns) and I've actually been having a pretty decent time doing it. Maybe I'm getting lucky, but I actually feel like it's positively affecting the team to have someone in that position. Like I said, I'm still pretty bad. But I feel like having someone in the 5 position who actually gives a shit really helps a pub team, despite a lack of overall effective co-ordination. At low ELO I would never do this (you gotta carry that shit), but it feels like it makes a difference once you hit higher MMR ratings.
So basically, you are saying that there are not enough 5 players right now, and that you can "carry" yourself to higher MMR by playing a decent 5 Position? I agree with that 100%
There isn't really a vicious circle of "1-3 are bad, so I have to play 1-3 since I can't support these bads" -> support player tries carry position and is (predictably) bad at it -> more supports think: "1-3 are bad, so... blah blah blah". At least, there isn't said circle for me because a game where I'm 1-4-8 at 25 mins and the game is hopelessly over is embarassing for me if I'm a carry (why is my farm so bad? prolly my fault, I should learn2rice or just play support) vs when I'm a support (I know I did what I could, but these carries stink. Meh, better luck next time). I used to think that I could rice pretty well, but that illusion is gone now. Accepting that you are bad is part of the learning process of Dota.
The ignore function is a godsend though, holy shit. I kinda wish there was a way to separately mute/ignore people though because I don't necessarily want to miss their type chat, I just don't always want some people's sound.
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On December 04 2012 01:07 Velr wrote:
In my experience there aren't really "to many" carries.
There are just too many Pos 1-3's in general and not enough 5's. and who is to blame? 4/5 in pubs is just 100% rolling dice and to get good at it you really need to have a decent team already else you can't practice it (at least not "seriously" because support does just not work "alone").
Speaking as a newbie (<100 games, started within the month, never played dota1/lol/hon) I like playing 5s in pubs. I like paying attention to wards and positioning rather than getting newbie tunnel vision on trying to last hit, and I feel like I'm learning more about how the game 'flows'.
And yeah, it's a gamble as to whether your team can actually get shit done (I have better winrates playing stuff in the pos 2-3 range), but it does feel good when after a glorious gank, the other team asks if you had warded. Damn right I did.
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People are still in the old mindset in which supports can't really have impact on game apart from warding. These days supports have to be active on the map and influence it in any way you can. If anything supports have to do what others do but without any of the farm.
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When someone plays with a shitty carry, missing last hits and dieing needlessly, the first thing on their mind is "We lost because we had no decent carry. If I don't play carry, we lose the game."
When someone plays with shitty support, no wards and no ganks, the first thing on their mind is "We lost because we had no decent supports. But if I don't play carry, we lose the game."
If you believe supports don't have the same impact on the game, why do you expect other people to believe it? And I don't think I've seen a single person that believe their were consistently the worse player in the game. I've met hundreds that believe they are ussually the best. And what does everyone say when that guy comes to the forum asking how to get out of "MMR hell with stupid teammates"? Pick a carry*, not a support.
This issue will never end until:
A) People suddenly start believing they can have as much impact on the game as a support as they do as a carry.
or
B) People stop believing they are always the best player on the random party and therefore must carry the team to victory.
Both seem highly unlikely.
*"Solo mid midgame hero" also applies, but the general idea is the same.
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On December 04 2012 03:25 SKC wrote:
When someone plays with a shitty carry, missing last hits and dieing needlessly, the first thing on their mind is "We lost because we had no decent carry. If I don't play carry, we lose the game."
When someone plays with shitty support, no wards and no ganks, the first thing on their mind is "We lost because we had no decent supports. But if I don't play carry, we lose the game."
If you believe supports don't have the same impact on the game, why do you expect other people to believe it? And I don't think I've seen a single person that believe their were consistently the worse player in the game. I've met hundreds that believe they are ussually the best. And what does everyone say when that guy comes to the forum asking how to get out of "MMR hell with stupid teammates"? Pick a carry*, not a support.
This issue will never end until:
A) People suddenly start believing they can have as much impact on the game as a support as they do as a carry.
or
B) People stop believing they are always the best player on the random party and therefore must carry the team to victory.
Both seem highly unlikely.
*"Solo mid midgame hero" also applies, but the general idea is the same.
I've consistently believed that I was the worst player in the game multiple times, when either queueing with players I know are better than me, or playing in inhouse leagues with known players.
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On December 04 2012 03:31 Cool Cat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 03:25 SKC wrote:
When someone plays with a shitty carry, missing last hits and dieing needlessly, the first thing on their mind is "We lost because we had no decent carry. If I don't play carry, we lose the game."
When someone plays with shitty support, no wards and no ganks, the first thing on their mind is "We lost because we had no decent supports. But if I don't play carry, we lose the game."
If you believe supports don't have the same impact on the game, why do you expect other people to believe it? And I don't think I've seen a single person that believe their were consistently the worse player in the game. I've met hundreds that believe they are ussually the best. And what does everyone say when that guy comes to the forum asking how to get out of "MMR hell with stupid teammates"? Pick a carry*, not a support.
This issue will never end until:
A) People suddenly start believing they can have as much impact on the game as a support as they do as a carry.
or
B) People stop believing they are always the best player on the random party and therefore must carry the team to victory.
Both seem highly unlikely.
*"Solo mid midgame hero" also applies, but the general idea is the same.
I've consistently believed that I was the worst player in the game multiple times, when either queueing with players I know are better than me, or playing in inhouse leagues with known players.
It obviously only applies to random queues, which seems to be the current topic.
"B) People stop believing they are always the best player on the random party and therefore must carry the team to victory."
That should have made it clear anyway.
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
On December 04 2012 03:31 Cool Cat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 03:25 SKC wrote:
When someone plays with a shitty carry, missing last hits and dieing needlessly, the first thing on their mind is "We lost because we had no decent carry. If I don't play carry, we lose the game."
When someone plays with shitty support, no wards and no ganks, the first thing on their mind is "We lost because we had no decent supports. But if I don't play carry, we lose the game."
If you believe supports don't have the same impact on the game, why do you expect other people to believe it? And I don't think I've seen a single person that believe their were consistently the worse player in the game. I've met hundreds that believe they are ussually the best. And what does everyone say when that guy comes to the forum asking how to get out of "MMR hell with stupid teammates"? Pick a carry*, not a support.
This issue will never end until:
A) People suddenly start believing they can have as much impact on the game as a support as they do as a carry.
or
B) People stop believing they are always the best player on the random party and therefore must carry the team to victory.
Both seem highly unlikely.
*"Solo mid midgame hero" also applies, but the general idea is the same.
I've consistently believed that I was the worst player in the game multiple times, when either queueing with players I know are better than me, or playing in inhouse leagues with known players.
You're the best player on your team 20% of the time, and the worst player on your team 20% of the time. Accept it and embrace it, and stop flaming those people that are having bad games, they have similar MMR to you for a reason. ^_^
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On December 04 2012 03:34 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 03:31 Cool Cat wrote:On December 04 2012 03:25 SKC wrote:
When someone plays with a shitty carry, missing last hits and dieing needlessly, the first thing on their mind is "We lost because we had no decent carry. If I don't play carry, we lose the game."
When someone plays with shitty support, no wards and no ganks, the first thing on their mind is "We lost because we had no decent supports. But if I don't play carry, we lose the game."
If you believe supports don't have the same impact on the game, why do you expect other people to believe it? And I don't think I've seen a single person that believe their were consistently the worse player in the game. I've met hundreds that believe they are ussually the best. And what does everyone say when that guy comes to the forum asking how to get out of "MMR hell with stupid teammates"? Pick a carry*, not a support.
This issue will never end until:
A) People suddenly start believing they can have as much impact on the game as a support as they do as a carry.
or
B) People stop believing they are always the best player on the random party and therefore must carry the team to victory.
Both seem highly unlikely.
*"Solo mid midgame hero" also applies, but the general idea is the same.
I've consistently believed that I was the worst player in the game multiple times, when either queueing with players I know are better than me, or playing in inhouse leagues with known players. You're the best player on your team 20% of the time, and the worst player on your team 20% of the time. Accept it and embrace it, and stop flaming those people that are having bad games, they have similar MMR to you for a reason. ^_^
If you've played enough games and the MMR system is good enough to put you where you belong*
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EPT
