TLC issues

On July 26 2015 10:48 yellowsmile wrote:
I figured as a neutral player

On July 26 2015 17:19 dRaW wrote:
Guys... TLC? No! I don't want no scrubs!

On July 26 2015 17:39 LaStScan wrote:


Do you really think practice partners = every day practice with that players around? No.
Let me put it this way.

Do you get to see afreeca BJs vs another afreeca BJs? Yes.
But are they playing the games for their practices? Somewhat yes, but they are playing because of the sponsors
Do you get to see them playing against other streamers whenever they feel like to? No. They choose to play against other BJs when the ladder channel is lacking of opponents.


Note: We rather like to meet and play through the ladder games instead of saying, "hey, go 1v1 practice?"

Here's some list that I can provide for you to get to know about Minus clan...

Minus)Little = Sziky(HU)
Minus)trutaCz = trutaCz(PL)
Minus)Zaraki = Zaraki(ES)
Minus)New = Fengzi(CN)
Minus)Zircon = Zhanhun(CN)
Minus)Shift = Jaystar(CN)
Minus)ViSuaL = Leilei(CN)
and more.

They all had the language barriers, but they were fine. Ladder users more likely to accept to play against someone who has clan tag.

I honestly don't think you know well about fish server and users' behaviours in general.

On July 26 2015 18:04 GGzerG wrote:
Why don't we go ahead and invite Jaystar and Fengzi as well since they are in the same clan as you ( even though we all know you are better than them ), and the foreign scene knows them well? Hmm....

On July 26 2015 17:02 GeckoXp wrote:
Disclaimer: It's early morning and I might phrase some words sort of destructive, while they're not meant to be.

The particular issue with polling is, that a ton of people can vote, who are anything but important to the tournament scene. Especially Sayle attracts random viewers who watch, because Sayle is casting. Replace Sayle by "Teamliquid Event". A ton of casual viewers will watch, regardless, because they don't see the differences in quality. Be that as it may, there are also people going to vote, who will not play or regularly watch. Any result you get by a TL.net Forum poll is going to be distorted. If I really wanted to I could rig the shit out of it, and I'm not even close to being tech savvy. Mind you, the BW Community has rigging polls since ever and TL.net doesn't make it hard.

If you want to have valid results, you ought to add captchas / identifiers, so you can add weights to the poll making. I suggest you do Google Drive polls, where you can select everything you did, but also have to enter two more variables:

[ ] Player vs [ ] Observer

and the TL.net nick.

This would look something like:




With the help of the last variables it is at least very hard for the average user to enter multiple times. Futhermore, it's easier to actually know what the numbers mean - Personally, I'd say fuck the viewers, if the players stand to profit more of it. Viewers are there no matter what they say, that's the one thing you can count on.


As for Scan, everything has been said already. Again, my personal opinion on the matter is, that established foreigners shouldn't take it nearly as serious. Except from Sziky and trutaCz there are only few who can hope to win multiple $ 100 Tournaments either way - so let Scan be in or not, doesn't change all too much. As for the championship goes, I'd rather not see Scan qualify easy for it. Also, it's another half year until that gets rolling, so hope for the best. (if Scan wouldn't play in the large tour, his participation in the cup series could at least be seen as training for the top notch foreigners, no?)




First off, you will get a ton of answers and finding a compromise is going to be hard as hell. The question really is what you want to achive with new maps. For instance

1. Support Foreign Map Makers

This would make sense, as the tournament is supposed to help the foreigners. Hence, adding less known maps seems a good decision. Yet, most foreign maps lack proper testing on a big scale. This should have been done prior to the events, but theoretically it's possible. However, even with the idea being good, the actual probability of people voting for foreign maps they don't know is close to zero. The average foreigner simply complains about things he has no experience with.

2. Create even chances

If that has to happen, you need expert evaluations, not average player opinions. Some things you should consider:

• TLPD stats of pro games or selections from tournament games are not a good indicator of balance. A 50% win ratio doesn't neccessarily mean it's even. If you look closer in the map stats you might find that a ton of high level Protoss win against a ton of low level Zerg, but lose to somewhat equal Zerg. Eventually the number will look close to 50-50, but they're probably not. Even standardized statistical methods (t-test) might lure you into false-positives, if you construct your approach wrongfully (not factoring in twin pairs of "equally skilled players").
  
• TechnicS has brought up the findings of guys like Freakling, who pointed out that mining ratios on very modern maps are off. This can be explained because nobody looked really into it. Granted, for the average players this isn't nearly as bad as it looks, but for better players it just might be the reason for hard losses. Apparently maps like Jade are exposed to that error - so it's not just the very old maps.
  
• Not every map maker is a good player. I don't mean to talk anything but good about Freakling, but I dare say he needs opinions of good players as well. His drafts might be perfect on paper, but many maps are just not that great in the TLS format for races: On three player maps (Tau Cross) it seems to me that more mobile races (Zerg v all, P v T) can force a map split rather easily and win with this more often than they could on better 2 or 4 player maps.
  
• Brings me to: Not only PA should go, but also Tau Cross and maybe Matchpoint. Destination and Blue Storm look good for a Zeg as replacement, but if they're really living up to the standards of international / foreign BW - no idea.
  

3. Force Changes in Play

I guess the main reasoning behind PA was to force some different strategies. This might allow the Scan issue to be lifted, he can't possibly prepare a lot better with his pro-friends, if they do not stand to gain from that, whereas foreigners can. Hence, including some sort of exotic map isn't "extremely" bad, as long as the map isn't violating balance ideas. However, the maps should be chosen carefully. I'd suggest looking into maps like Rush Hour III, R-Point, Arcadia II, Enter the Dragon, Satterchasm, Bifrost or Namja Iyagi if you want to go down that road. Again, there need to be changes in the maps (maybe R-Point and Arcadia might work), as well as testing. You'd also had to try to get the ICCup Developers adding these maps to the ICCup pool, so it could be used as MOTW in order to make training on them easier. This should have been done prior to the tournament.

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New Players

A last reminder, foreign BW as a whole doesn't neccessarily profit from the tournament series. The ISLs showed wonderfully how only the active people played more, but new people didn't. All we can hope for is to caues a ripple effect to attract outsiders. Making the entire discussion heated won't help that at all. That being said, bring back the D Leagues and ffs expand the coverage, rather than have the Scan vs. Foreigners debate overtower the idea.