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United States47024 Posts
On July 16 2015 00:49 jcarlsoniv wrote:
So here's the thing...
Short rest takes an hour. I would love to be all sneaky through this library and maybe find somewhere we could hole up and hide, but certain people keep insisting on blowing the place up.
This is why Gimble is taking the effort to learn Rope Trick.
Hour-duration invisible pocket dimension is very good for short rests.
Though that also requires the party to settle down again for him to properly learn and memorize the spell.
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On July 16 2015 01:11 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 00:49 jcarlsoniv wrote:
So here's the thing...
Short rest takes an hour. I would love to be all sneaky through this library and maybe find somewhere we could hole up and hide, but certain people keep insisting on blowing the place up. This is why Gimble is taking the effort to learn Rope Trick. Hour-duration invisible pocket dimension is very good for short rests. Though that also requires the party to settle down again for him to properly learn and memorize the spell.
Which I completely understand as a player. But as a character stuck in the library with these jabronis, I'm not gonna stand around for an hour (to copy down + 4 hours to learn spell) while Gimble reads a book.
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United States47024 Posts
Well even if he learned it, he wouldn't get to memorize it without further additional rest anyway.
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On July 16 2015 01:16 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 01:11 TheYango wrote:On July 16 2015 00:49 jcarlsoniv wrote:
So here's the thing...
Short rest takes an hour. I would love to be all sneaky through this library and maybe find somewhere we could hole up and hide, but certain people keep insisting on blowing the place up. This is why Gimble is taking the effort to learn Rope Trick. Hour-duration invisible pocket dimension is very good for short rests. Though that also requires the party to settle down again for him to properly learn and memorize the spell. Which I completely understand as a player. But as a character stuck in the library with these jabronis, I'm not gonna stand around for an hour (to copy down + 4 hours to learn spell) while Gimble reads a book.
I don't really see why we can't do both.
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On July 16 2015 01:25 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 01:16 jcarlsoniv wrote:On July 16 2015 01:11 TheYango wrote:On July 16 2015 00:49 jcarlsoniv wrote:
So here's the thing...
Short rest takes an hour. I would love to be all sneaky through this library and maybe find somewhere we could hole up and hide, but certain people keep insisting on blowing the place up. This is why Gimble is taking the effort to learn Rope Trick. Hour-duration invisible pocket dimension is very good for short rests. Though that also requires the party to settle down again for him to properly learn and memorize the spell. Which I completely understand as a player. But as a character stuck in the library with these jabronis, I'm not gonna stand around for an hour (to copy down + 4 hours to learn spell) while Gimble reads a book. I don't really see why we can't do both.
I'm confused as to why you think we're safe from the patrolling librarians.
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United States15536 Posts
No one is safe.
Everything is dangerous.
Life is a series of traumas until the final one unburdens you of your painful memories.
+ Show Spoiler +Welcome... to Night Vale.
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On July 16 2015 01:27 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 01:25 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 16 2015 01:16 jcarlsoniv wrote:On July 16 2015 01:11 TheYango wrote:On July 16 2015 00:49 jcarlsoniv wrote:
So here's the thing...
Short rest takes an hour. I would love to be all sneaky through this library and maybe find somewhere we could hole up and hide, but certain people keep insisting on blowing the place up. This is why Gimble is taking the effort to learn Rope Trick. Hour-duration invisible pocket dimension is very good for short rests. Though that also requires the party to settle down again for him to properly learn and memorize the spell. Which I completely understand as a player. But as a character stuck in the library with these jabronis, I'm not gonna stand around for an hour (to copy down + 4 hours to learn spell) while Gimble reads a book. I don't really see why we can't do both. I'm confused as to why you think we're safe from the patrolling librarians.
You're such a downer (can't tell if in game or out) lately.
We can go to the entrance and try to rest there---if librarians show up we leave again.
We can use Tolk's spell.
There are multiple ways around this and I don't see how we're in any more danger from simply exploring than we are by resting.
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I think Asmo will do something about it if we just keep leaving and returning after every encounter...
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On July 16 2015 02:07 Requizen wrote:
I think Asmo will do something about it if we just keep leaving and returning after every encounter...
It doesn't have to be after every encounter.
But supposedly there should be a point in allowing a warlock to regenerate spell slots after a short rest, no?
Otherwise it was a massive drawback to pick this class.
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On July 16 2015 02:09 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 02:07 Requizen wrote:
I think Asmo will do something about it if we just keep leaving and returning after every encounter... It doesn't have to be after every encounter. But supposedly there should be a point in allowing a warlock to regenerate spell slots after a short rest, no? Otherwise it was a massive drawback to pick this class.
Theoretically the Warlock should be more cognizant of the fact that short rests aren't always feasible and use spell slots a bit more sparingly. You've got Eldritch Blast, the single most powerful damaging cantrip in the game. And now that you're level 5, it's suuuuuuuuper good.
Yes, short rests should be utilized. No, stopping for an hour while in a super dangerous place isn't always a realistic expectation.
edit - from a DM perspective, having your party constantly short rest removes a lot of the challenge for them. As it is, healing in 5e is incredibly forgiving.
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On July 16 2015 02:09 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 02:07 Requizen wrote:
I think Asmo will do something about it if we just keep leaving and returning after every encounter... It doesn't have to be after every encounter. But supposedly there should be a point in allowing a warlock to regenerate spell slots after a short rest, no? Otherwise it was a massive drawback to pick this class.
It's a drawback to everyone, not just Warlocks. Short rests are huge for many classes.
In Pokemon Tabletop United, they did something similar and cool that I think works slightly better. Instead of Short Rests, there's a Scene system in place. The DM says "this is a scene". A scene can be a single battle, series of short battles, or a RP section of the session. Certain abilities are Once Per Scene. This allows you to use your powerful abilities without worrying about needing to go lay down for an hour afterwards, they'll just be ready because the scene has changed and it's inferred that you can use your good things again, because enough time has passed. It's designed to make things a bit more cinematic.
In fact, one of the thins I really like about the system, is that pretty much everything in the game is built on what the DM thinks is fair or "cool". There's not even a real Exp system for Trainer (well there is, but it says you can even ignore it) and the DM says "hey you cleared this dungeon/area/extremely hard encounter, here's a level", or "today you had a lot of fights, but they were all really easy, so no level but here's other rewards". Not that this has anything to do with the above, but I like that.
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On July 16 2015 02:14 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 02:09 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 16 2015 02:07 Requizen wrote:
I think Asmo will do something about it if we just keep leaving and returning after every encounter... It doesn't have to be after every encounter. But supposedly there should be a point in allowing a warlock to regenerate spell slots after a short rest, no? Otherwise it was a massive drawback to pick this class. Theoretically the Warlock should be more cognizant of the fact that short rests aren't always feasible and use spell slots a bit more sparingly. You've got Eldritch Blast, the single most powerful damaging cantrip in the game. And now that you're level 5, it's suuuuuuuuper good. Yes, short rests should be utilized. No, stopping for an hour while in a super dangerous place isn't always a realistic expectation. edit - from a DM perspective, having your party constantly short rest removes a lot of the challenge for them. As it is, healing in 5e is incredibly forgiving.
Yes, but point being we've NEVER stopped to do this anywhere as we've been able to just blast through most of it.
I'm saying because we can't just blast through this place, taking it slow and more methodically is the way to go here. If that means stopping to regroup I'm not seeing the problem. If Asmo as the DM has an issue with in ingame or outside of it, he will do something about it.
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On July 16 2015 02:20 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 02:14 jcarlsoniv wrote:On July 16 2015 02:09 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 16 2015 02:07 Requizen wrote:
I think Asmo will do something about it if we just keep leaving and returning after every encounter... It doesn't have to be after every encounter. But supposedly there should be a point in allowing a warlock to regenerate spell slots after a short rest, no? Otherwise it was a massive drawback to pick this class. Theoretically the Warlock should be more cognizant of the fact that short rests aren't always feasible and use spell slots a bit more sparingly. You've got Eldritch Blast, the single most powerful damaging cantrip in the game. And now that you're level 5, it's suuuuuuuuper good. Yes, short rests should be utilized. No, stopping for an hour while in a super dangerous place isn't always a realistic expectation. edit - from a DM perspective, having your party constantly short rest removes a lot of the challenge for them. As it is, healing in 5e is incredibly forgiving. Yes, but point being we've NEVER stopped to do this anywhere as we've been able to just blast through most of it. I'm saying because we can't just blast through this place, taking it slow and more methodically is the way to go here. If that means stopping to regroup I'm not seeing the problem. If Asmo as the DM has an issue with in ingame or outside of it, he will do something about it.
Slow and methodical != stopping to rest for an hour.
Could we stop and try it? Yes. Does Roger want to? No.
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On July 16 2015 02:21 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 02:20 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 16 2015 02:14 jcarlsoniv wrote:On July 16 2015 02:09 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 16 2015 02:07 Requizen wrote:
I think Asmo will do something about it if we just keep leaving and returning after every encounter... It doesn't have to be after every encounter. But supposedly there should be a point in allowing a warlock to regenerate spell slots after a short rest, no? Otherwise it was a massive drawback to pick this class. Theoretically the Warlock should be more cognizant of the fact that short rests aren't always feasible and use spell slots a bit more sparingly. You've got Eldritch Blast, the single most powerful damaging cantrip in the game. And now that you're level 5, it's suuuuuuuuper good. Yes, short rests should be utilized. No, stopping for an hour while in a super dangerous place isn't always a realistic expectation. edit - from a DM perspective, having your party constantly short rest removes a lot of the challenge for them. As it is, healing in 5e is incredibly forgiving. Yes, but point being we've NEVER stopped to do this anywhere as we've been able to just blast through most of it. I'm saying because we can't just blast through this place, taking it slow and more methodically is the way to go here. If that means stopping to regroup I'm not seeing the problem. If Asmo as the DM has an issue with in ingame or outside of it, he will do something about it. Slow and methodical != stopping to rest for an hour. Could we stop and try it? Yes. Does Roger want to? No.
I guess it really depends on what they consider a "Short Rest". I don't have the book in front of me, but what does it say specifically constitutes one? Do you have to sit still for an hour? Could perusing a room be considered resting?
Obviously it's not restful to be tensely sneaking around corners looking out for Librarians, but if we decided to search a room for books that might be helpful for an hour, that's not exactly stressful.
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On July 16 2015 02:26 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 02:21 jcarlsoniv wrote:On July 16 2015 02:20 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 16 2015 02:14 jcarlsoniv wrote:On July 16 2015 02:09 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 16 2015 02:07 Requizen wrote:
I think Asmo will do something about it if we just keep leaving and returning after every encounter... It doesn't have to be after every encounter. But supposedly there should be a point in allowing a warlock to regenerate spell slots after a short rest, no? Otherwise it was a massive drawback to pick this class. Theoretically the Warlock should be more cognizant of the fact that short rests aren't always feasible and use spell slots a bit more sparingly. You've got Eldritch Blast, the single most powerful damaging cantrip in the game. And now that you're level 5, it's suuuuuuuuper good. Yes, short rests should be utilized. No, stopping for an hour while in a super dangerous place isn't always a realistic expectation. edit - from a DM perspective, having your party constantly short rest removes a lot of the challenge for them. As it is, healing in 5e is incredibly forgiving. Yes, but point being we've NEVER stopped to do this anywhere as we've been able to just blast through most of it. I'm saying because we can't just blast through this place, taking it slow and more methodically is the way to go here. If that means stopping to regroup I'm not seeing the problem. If Asmo as the DM has an issue with in ingame or outside of it, he will do something about it. Slow and methodical != stopping to rest for an hour. Could we stop and try it? Yes. Does Roger want to? No. I guess it really depends on what they consider a "Short Rest". I don't have the book in front of me, but what does it say specifically constitutes one? Do you have to sit still for an hour? Could perusing a room be considered resting? Obviously it's not restful to be tensely sneaking around corners looking out for Librarians, but if we decided to search a room for books that might be helpful for an hour, that's not exactly stressful.
Uhh I think it's partially up to DM discretion, but hanging out and looking around a room would probably constitute a short rest assuming nothing happens to interrupt that. But the fact that the Librarians almost certainly know we're here (also considering two casts of Shatter = VERY loud, and the bookshelves are trashed) makes Roger not want to dick around longer than necessary.
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United States47024 Posts
As a system, 5E is balanced around parties taking their full allotment of short rests through the entire day.
Whether that's actually practically used is up to the DM. 5E is also balanced around parties seeing 5-6 "hard" encounters every day (with some unspecified number of easier ones), and your normal adventuring day in Iris doesn't come close to that many so far. Short rests are designed to accommodate much higher encounter density than Asmo's been using in Iris. Whether he wants to alter his encounter-building because of that is up to him.
That Asmo designing Iris this way has some small adverse effects on class balance (particularly for classes that are designed around per-short rest resources), is unfortunate but not in and of itself a damning problem.
EDIT: I should note that this paradigm is a huge departure from 3.5E and similar systems, which were designed around an adventuring day consisting of ~4 encounters of CR equal to the party each day--FAR less than 5E. 5E expects a party to *do* a whole lot more each day, and short rests exist to enable that. For players and DMs who have more background in 3.5E/Pathfinder/etc. that's going to be pretty different from what they're used to designing/playing. Thus far, Asmo's overall encounter design/resting practicality seem much more in line with what I'm used to in a 3.5E or Pathfinder campaign than what 5E seems to expect by design.
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On July 16 2015 02:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 02:26 Requizen wrote:On July 16 2015 02:21 jcarlsoniv wrote:On July 16 2015 02:20 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 16 2015 02:14 jcarlsoniv wrote:On July 16 2015 02:09 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 16 2015 02:07 Requizen wrote:
I think Asmo will do something about it if we just keep leaving and returning after every encounter... It doesn't have to be after every encounter. But supposedly there should be a point in allowing a warlock to regenerate spell slots after a short rest, no? Otherwise it was a massive drawback to pick this class. Theoretically the Warlock should be more cognizant of the fact that short rests aren't always feasible and use spell slots a bit more sparingly. You've got Eldritch Blast, the single most powerful damaging cantrip in the game. And now that you're level 5, it's suuuuuuuuper good. Yes, short rests should be utilized. No, stopping for an hour while in a super dangerous place isn't always a realistic expectation. edit - from a DM perspective, having your party constantly short rest removes a lot of the challenge for them. As it is, healing in 5e is incredibly forgiving. Yes, but point being we've NEVER stopped to do this anywhere as we've been able to just blast through most of it. I'm saying because we can't just blast through this place, taking it slow and more methodically is the way to go here. If that means stopping to regroup I'm not seeing the problem. If Asmo as the DM has an issue with in ingame or outside of it, he will do something about it. Slow and methodical != stopping to rest for an hour. Could we stop and try it? Yes. Does Roger want to? No. I guess it really depends on what they consider a "Short Rest". I don't have the book in front of me, but what does it say specifically constitutes one? Do you have to sit still for an hour? Could perusing a room be considered resting? Obviously it's not restful to be tensely sneaking around corners looking out for Librarians, but if we decided to search a room for books that might be helpful for an hour, that's not exactly stressful. Uhh I think it's partially up to DM discretion, but hanging out and looking around a room would probably constitute a short rest assuming nothing happens to interrupt that. But the fact that the Librarians almost certainly know we're here (also considering two casts of Shatter = VERY loud, and the bookshelves are trashed) makes Roger not want to dick around longer than necessary.
Well both I and Amak'thos would like to explore every inch of this library possible, me being hungry for fun/adventure and him being hungry for knowledge/power. My motivations are pretty clear in both regards and I'm going to attempt to fight for them. Beyond that, from a pragmatic point of view I just don't think it's going to possible to do a simple 'in-get-the-book-get-out' because there is no way
a) Asmo would have designed this elaborate dungeon this way
b) logistically that we're going to be able to avoid everything forever even WITH stealth when there's a billion puzzles to solve and surprise traps to avoid.
We're GOING to make noise at some point, and we're GOING to have to face the librarians in some regard again. As such I think it's better to take our time, figure stuff out and plan than try to rush and sneak around. Amak'thos as you well know isn't partial to sneaking anyway.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 16 2015 02:17 Requizen wrote:
In Pokemon Tabletop United, they did something similar and cool that I think works slightly better. Instead of Short Rests, there's a Scene system in place. The DM says "this is a scene". A scene can be a single battle, series of short battles, or a RP section of the session. Certain abilities are Once Per Scene. This allows you to use your powerful abilities without worrying about needing to go lay down for an hour afterwards, they'll just be ready because the scene has changed and it's inferred that you can use your good things again, because enough time has passed. It's designed to make things a bit more cinematic.
This isn't something new exclusive to PTU. What they call a "scene" is called an "encounter" by 3.5E/4E terminology. The idea of "encounter-based design" was explored in depth in 3.5E in Tome of Battle, and WotC went super-overboard with it in 4E. The 4E encounter definition was arguably a bit too lenient, and the strength of short rest HP recovery disproportionately high, which resulted in some design that was very jarring to players accustomed to 3.5E.
The 1-hr short rest in 5E was probably a compromise and a way to dial back to a happy medium between per-encounter and per-day abilities.
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On July 16 2015 02:43 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 02:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On July 16 2015 02:26 Requizen wrote:On July 16 2015 02:21 jcarlsoniv wrote:On July 16 2015 02:20 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 16 2015 02:14 jcarlsoniv wrote:On July 16 2015 02:09 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 16 2015 02:07 Requizen wrote:
I think Asmo will do something about it if we just keep leaving and returning after every encounter... It doesn't have to be after every encounter. But supposedly there should be a point in allowing a warlock to regenerate spell slots after a short rest, no? Otherwise it was a massive drawback to pick this class. Theoretically the Warlock should be more cognizant of the fact that short rests aren't always feasible and use spell slots a bit more sparingly. You've got Eldritch Blast, the single most powerful damaging cantrip in the game. And now that you're level 5, it's suuuuuuuuper good. Yes, short rests should be utilized. No, stopping for an hour while in a super dangerous place isn't always a realistic expectation. edit - from a DM perspective, having your party constantly short rest removes a lot of the challenge for them. As it is, healing in 5e is incredibly forgiving. Yes, but point being we've NEVER stopped to do this anywhere as we've been able to just blast through most of it. I'm saying because we can't just blast through this place, taking it slow and more methodically is the way to go here. If that means stopping to regroup I'm not seeing the problem. If Asmo as the DM has an issue with in ingame or outside of it, he will do something about it. Slow and methodical != stopping to rest for an hour. Could we stop and try it? Yes. Does Roger want to? No. I guess it really depends on what they consider a "Short Rest". I don't have the book in front of me, but what does it say specifically constitutes one? Do you have to sit still for an hour? Could perusing a room be considered resting? Obviously it's not restful to be tensely sneaking around corners looking out for Librarians, but if we decided to search a room for books that might be helpful for an hour, that's not exactly stressful. Uhh I think it's partially up to DM discretion, but hanging out and looking around a room would probably constitute a short rest assuming nothing happens to interrupt that. But the fact that the Librarians almost certainly know we're here (also considering two casts of Shatter = VERY loud, and the bookshelves are trashed) makes Roger not want to dick around longer than necessary. Well both I and Amak'thos would like to explore every inch of this library possible, me being hungry for fun/adventure and him being hungry for knowledge/power. My motivations are pretty clear in both regards and I'm going to attempt to fight for them.
Which is totally fine if that's your desire as long as you also understand that Roger's desires are the opposite.
Beyond that, from a pragmatic point of view I just don't think it's going to possible to do a simple 'in-get-the-book-get-out' because there is no way
a) Asmo would have designed this elaborate dungeon this way
b) logistically that we're going to be able to avoid everything forever even WITH stealth when there's a billion puzzles to solve and surprise traps to avoid.
We're GOING to make noise at some point, and we're GOING to have to face the librarians in some regard again. As such I think it's better to take our time, figure stuff out and plan than try to rush and sneak around. Amak'thos as you well know isn't partial to sneaking anyway.
There is a distinct difference between understanding that there will be a run in and taking it as it comes, and actively working against the stealth operation and using one of the loudest spells in the game to destroy the Librarians' home.
We have been told repeatedly how dangerous these Librarians are and that we should not, under any circumstances, try to fight them. Roger is taking that advice to heart.
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On July 16 2015 02:51 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 02:43 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 16 2015 02:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On July 16 2015 02:26 Requizen wrote:On July 16 2015 02:21 jcarlsoniv wrote:On July 16 2015 02:20 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 16 2015 02:14 jcarlsoniv wrote:On July 16 2015 02:09 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 16 2015 02:07 Requizen wrote:
I think Asmo will do something about it if we just keep leaving and returning after every encounter... It doesn't have to be after every encounter. But supposedly there should be a point in allowing a warlock to regenerate spell slots after a short rest, no? Otherwise it was a massive drawback to pick this class. Theoretically the Warlock should be more cognizant of the fact that short rests aren't always feasible and use spell slots a bit more sparingly. You've got Eldritch Blast, the single most powerful damaging cantrip in the game. And now that you're level 5, it's suuuuuuuuper good. Yes, short rests should be utilized. No, stopping for an hour while in a super dangerous place isn't always a realistic expectation. edit - from a DM perspective, having your party constantly short rest removes a lot of the challenge for them. As it is, healing in 5e is incredibly forgiving. Yes, but point being we've NEVER stopped to do this anywhere as we've been able to just blast through most of it. I'm saying because we can't just blast through this place, taking it slow and more methodically is the way to go here. If that means stopping to regroup I'm not seeing the problem. If Asmo as the DM has an issue with in ingame or outside of it, he will do something about it. Slow and methodical != stopping to rest for an hour. Could we stop and try it? Yes. Does Roger want to? No. I guess it really depends on what they consider a "Short Rest". I don't have the book in front of me, but what does it say specifically constitutes one? Do you have to sit still for an hour? Could perusing a room be considered resting? Obviously it's not restful to be tensely sneaking around corners looking out for Librarians, but if we decided to search a room for books that might be helpful for an hour, that's not exactly stressful. Uhh I think it's partially up to DM discretion, but hanging out and looking around a room would probably constitute a short rest assuming nothing happens to interrupt that. But the fact that the Librarians almost certainly know we're here (also considering two casts of Shatter = VERY loud, and the bookshelves are trashed) makes Roger not want to dick around longer than necessary. Well both I and Amak'thos would like to explore every inch of this library possible, me being hungry for fun/adventure and him being hungry for knowledge/power. My motivations are pretty clear in both regards and I'm going to attempt to fight for them. Which is totally fine if that's your desire as long as you also understand that Roger's desires are the opposite. Show nested quote +Beyond that, from a pragmatic point of view I just don't think it's going to possible to do a simple 'in-get-the-book-get-out' because there is no way
a) Asmo would have designed this elaborate dungeon this way
b) logistically that we're going to be able to avoid everything forever even WITH stealth when there's a billion puzzles to solve and surprise traps to avoid.
We're GOING to make noise at some point, and we're GOING to have to face the librarians in some regard again. As such I think it's better to take our time, figure stuff out and plan than try to rush and sneak around. Amak'thos as you well know isn't partial to sneaking anyway. There is a distinct difference between understanding that there will be a run in and taking it as it comes, and actively working against the stealth operation and using one of the loudest spells in the game to destroy the Librarians' home. We have been told repeatedly how dangerous these Librarians are and that we should not, under any circumstances, try to fight them. Roger is taking that advice to heart.
And Amak'thos is likely to consider it, but test the limits.
I mean again, I wasn't actively working against stealth so much as being curious about the Sorting Hat, and then using one of the best spells possible to take it out. He/I understand the value of stealth as can be understood from the first part of our re-entry, but once we were in combat and Roam nearly got one-shot there tend to be priorities.
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EPT
