EPTI'm interested to see if #Gamergate can become a call for journalistic integrity everywhere. Probably won't fix everything but if it can frame media in general of being less reliable to force them to work harder that'd be swell
Gamergate and video game journalism - Page 22
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Please don't go calling people racist, misogynists, or any combination therein. Don't start throwing around words like "white Knight" or SJW, these words are at this point used in a derogatory manner regarding this debate. You can discuss that these terms exist, but do not attribute them to any individual user or group of users on this website. Try to have a serious discussion about the topic at hand without resorting to personal attacks and we will all be the better for it. Breaking this rule will result in an automatic temp ban the length of which will depend on the comment you make. This thread started not so bad. It is getting worse. If you want to have this discussion on TL be respectful of your fellow users, we all live in the same house. Effective now: Page 21 October 18th 08:31 KST | ||
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Dunnobro
United States67 Posts
I'm interested to see if #Gamergate can become a call for journalistic integrity everywhere. Probably won't fix everything but if it can frame media in general of being less reliable to force them to work harder that'd be swell | ||
Falling
Canada11385 Posts
But regardless of their choice of targets, there is a rampant problem of stacking assumption on top of assumption that leads to really lously conclusions. People hear Anita called the authorities, assume she called the local cops, then call her harassment BS. Turns out she called the FBI. But so many claims of the first week are suddenly turned into facts the second week to prove the next round of claims. But once we've moved on to the new evidence, we can refer back to the old as proof of a past history. Too many of the established facts, I have yet to see established. It reminds me a lot of people's assertions on Tower 7. This MUST have happened exactly this way or else it is faked. Not alternative is possible because everyone knows exactly how how buildings collapse when a passenger jet hits a building. But maybe there is a faulty conclusion, a different alternative. Presuppositions colour the analysis into dogma and the dogma is used to prove new 'facts.' Directly at you Xiphos. Probably half of your claims, if not more, I have never seen properly proved. I've read chat logs, I have looked at screenshots circled and arrows pointing this way and the other. Very little of it is convincing. Some of it is possible, but possible is not the same thing as 'this actually happened.' But as soon as I turn around and with no new information, it's suddenly a known fact, rather than the much more cautious, but truthful: it's still only a possibility. | ||
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NEOtheONE
United States2233 Posts
On October 18 2014 10:30 Dunnobro wrote: Really with all this damage control bigger non-gaming media is playing for gaming journalists it's exposing their corruption too. (All of gawker is losing sponsors now, mercedes being the biggest) I'm interested to see if #Gamergate can become a call for journalistic integrity everywhere. Probably won't fix everything but if it can frame media in general of being less reliable to force them to work harder that'd be swell Yeah, I learned that even big journalism sites like CNN, The Guardian, The Washington Post, MSNBC, and many others will publish clearly biased articles that make us gamers seem like a bunch of misogynist neckbeards. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/09/12/with-gamergate-the-video-game-industrys-growing-pains-go-viral/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2014/10/14/the-only-guide-to-gamergate-you-will-ever-need-to-read/ http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/15/living/gamergate-explainer/index.html http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/17/brianna-wu-gamergate-human-cost We need to come together as a gaming community and prove that we are not the stereotype that society wants to put on us. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On October 18 2014 10:28 levelping wrote: I don't get why it's so hard to accept that gaming might have some sexism in it. I mean come on guys it's an industry built largely for teenage boys. There boob armour and gratitutious fan service everywhere. We all obviously love gaming. So recognising one of the limiting aspects of the genre isn't a bad thing. It's so we can improve. And we didint need gamer gate to tell us this. Sexism is usually associated with something that needs to be done away with, which is usually the most off-putting aspect of discussion for a lot of people. Saying that it's "limiting" or that "we can improve" are far too generic and unspecific to be meaningful. The fact of the matter is that the very large majority of console and PC gamers are males, and the market targeting will tend to reflect that. And really, how "limiting" is it, really? WoW and LoL are two Triple-A games that have attracted a lot more female players than the norm, and both are absolutely infamous for female characters that are disproportionately sexualized compared to the male characters. And when you think about it, if there really is a boom in female consumers for the "hardcore" gaming market, do you really think the end result will be a decrease in fanservice for men? Personally, I think we'd see the exact opposite, with a very sharp increase in fanservice for women. | ||
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Millitron
United States2611 Posts
On October 18 2014 10:28 levelping wrote: I don't get why it's so hard to accept that gaming might have some sexism in it. I mean come on guys it's an industry built largely for teenage boys. There boob armour and gratitutious fan service everywhere. We all obviously love gaming. So recognising one of the limiting aspects of the genre isn't a bad thing. It's so we can improve. And we didint need gamer gate to tell us this. The issue is that the people clamoring for change aren't the ones who actually play videogames. And I mean real videogames, not solitaire or candy crush, please don't bring up that "study" that says 50% of gamers are female. Games are mostly made for young males, because they're the ones who will pay $60 for a new game. Young males like violence, sexy females, and being the classical hero. Saving the damsel in distress is a common trope in all media aimed at young males, and isn't really seen as a problem. But other media has works that target other demographics. Movies have romcoms, literature has romance novels, music has pop lovesongs. The thing is though, none of those other genres translate really into a videogame. Maybe a visual novel, but even calling those videogames is stretching it. I don't get why there's no huge shitstorm over action movies being targeted at young males, but there is a shitstorm over videogames being target at young males. Why can't the people upset with sexism just accept they are not the target audience of this or that videogame? | ||
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Dunnobro
United States67 Posts
On October 18 2014 10:30 Dunnobro wrote: We need to come together as a gaming community and prove that we are not the stereotype that society wants to put on us. They believe we should just abandon the term "Gamer" but any objective review of that suggestion might find this is just a veil to deconstruct the sense of community, and power of a consumer group they fear. It's a well-known fact if people feel isolated, they feel weak. I doubt if people didn't en masse consider themselves "Gamers" they'd feel safe speaking out or each other as they are here. It could just be an ignorant, harmless suggestion but they've expressed clear anti-consumerism so removing the identity of their consumers, and thus their power to resist them would be in their financial best interest. Also, don't see anyone denying sexism in gaming. I really don't, and if some are I doubt they're going far with that assumption. Remember though, sexism is not an absolute evil. (Portraying a character that's a gentle, caring stay-at-home mom would be sexist. I'd rather review things as Problematic = bad. Not sexist = problematic = bad. ) And generally if they are actually problematic, the free market notices and it fixes itself. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On October 18 2014 11:21 Millitron wrote: The issue is that the people clamoring for change aren't the ones who actually play videogames. And I mean real videogames, not solitaire or candy crush, please don't bring up that "study" that says 50% of gamers are female. Games are mostly made for young males, because they're the ones who will pay $60 for a new game. Young males like violence, sexy females, and being the classical hero. Saving the damsel in distress is a common trope in all media aimed at young males, and isn't really seen as a problem. But other media has works that target other demographics. Movies have romcoms, literature has romance novels, music has pop lovesongs. The thing is though, none of those other genres translate really into a videogame. Maybe a visual novel, but even calling those videogames is stretching it. I don't get why there's no huge shitstorm over action movies being targeted at young males, but there is a shitstorm over videogames being target at young males. Why can't the people upset with sexism just accept they are not the target audience of this or that videogame? Speaking of action movies...notice how Sony pulled in the female audience for X-Men? Did they do away with the skintight outfits on women, and get Mystique to dress more conservatively? Nope. Skintight suits for all, latex bodysuit for Rebecca Romijin, but most importantly Hugh Jackman with at least 5 shirtless scenes every movie. | ||
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levelping
Singapore759 Posts
I dont get the points that market should be geared at the largest demographic, or that since no girls play games it's okay to cater to male fantasy trips. Why do we need girls to be present to clear up sexism? Shouldn't we clean up the house since sexism is generally bad whether or not girls are here? And also so what if movies or the rest other world has sexism issues too. As gamers we can look at the one area we can make better. | ||
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Dunnobro
United States67 Posts
"discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women. " This one is pretty much an absolute evil. However that's actually the second definition, not primary. "attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles." What if someone was just naturally rather traditional? Should they be "done away with"? should they be forced to change because of some arbitrary decision that decided all aspects of sexism are evil? I don't think so. Why can't we more objectively review things instead of needing everything to be black/white? | ||
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On October 18 2014 11:28 levelping wrote: Sexism should be done away with and I totally would like for lots of unnecessary sexist stuff to be removed from a medium which I love. I dont get the points that market should be geared at the largest demographic, or that since no girls play games it's okay to cater to male fantasy trips. Why do we need girls to be present to clear up sexism? Shouldn't we clean up the house since sexism is generally bad whether or not girls are here? And also so what if movies or the rest other world has sexism issues too. As gamers we can look at the one area we can make better. How are game developers going to make money if they don't aim for the largest demographic? They sell the product that their consumers want. Supply and demand. That's not sexist - that's just life. If/when girl gamers become more "hardcore" on average and that demographic expands, the design of games will shift to accommodate them better. Though I doubt we'll see less sexy/vulnerable women in games - we'll just see more powerful female characters to balance out the powerful male characters. And actually, if you look back at the last ten years of gaming, I think you can clearly see a trend of that very thing happening. Eventually, we'll get there - but it just hasn't happened yet. People are just overreacting. | ||
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levelping
Singapore759 Posts
On October 18 2014 11:25 WolfintheSheep wrote: Speaking of action movies...notice how Sony pulled in the female audience for X-Men? Did they do away with the skintight outfits on women, and get Mystique to dress more conservatively? Nope. Skintight suits for all, latex bodysuit for Rebecca Romijin, but most importantly Hugh Jackman with at least 5 shirtless scenes every movie. Okay I think I get your point better, and actually I could totally get behind that. Should there be games with goofy sexual objectification of both sexes? Yeah of course. I actually find the Metal Gear Solid series to be awesome because it makes both males and females sexual objects, and is completely self aware of the kooky 80s porno vibe it sometimes gives off. As adults, we should be able to take our entertainment in the right context, and so long as we take it in that context and not a statement of sexual norms, then sure. But let's look at gaming generally, and it becomes pretty obvious that games like MGS are pretty rare. More often than not, it is only the female who is presented as a sexual object, and as very real ones. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On October 18 2014 11:08 WolfintheSheep wrote: And when you think about it, if there really is a boom in female consumers for the "hardcore" gaming market, do you really think the end result will be a decrease in fanservice for men? Personally, I think we'd see the exact opposite, with a very sharp increase in fanservice for women. I think you see a sharp increase in fan service to women, which will fail, because most women hate being pandered to. That's really not what women gamers want either. And then some developer that actually knows what they're doing will make the equivalent of The Dark Knight Rises, which will appeal to everyone, and has female characters — both good, bad and gasp! sexy — with some actual personality. This game will win awards and a bazillion dollars, and everyone will be wondering what the fuss was about. You know what would really help balance this debate and quell people's nervers? If Anita Sarkeesian reviewed or recommended games that she liked, that she felt were not sexist or pandering. I think that's a very fair criticism of her work — it's entirely based around things she doesn't like. It makes her seem very joyless and academic. Not only that, contrasting positive and negative depictions of women in game would help her illustrate her point. Can you guys make suggestions of games she should play with strong or compelling representations of women? Metroid comes to mind. HOTS has a pretty badass female lead. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
It appears that you are not familiar with how Twitters works or having trouble with deduction. Tweeter updates the time after tweet dynamically afterward. So it will continually updates the time such as "Posted 5 minutes ago", "now 6 mintues.." and so fourth. Screen capping something merely after 12s after the last tweet means that the screen capper was anticipating the tweet to take place especially when the tweeter are not followed or following anyone. If you attempt to search for a particular tweet or person, it will show up in the search bar. So who in the right mind would have found these tweets w/o using the search bar? You have to know the person's twitter ID preemptively such as entering https://twitter.com/InsertNameHere in order to pay attention to it. I'll give you that account was solely created for this doesn't exactly prove anything but the rest of your debunkings are rubbish, so the blue conclusions still stands very firmly. To ninazerg: Same situation. Kickstarted a project, and didn't hold up the end of the bargain. And try focusing on the article's lack of updates from her mirroring Sons of StarCraft. To xDaunt: As of now, she didn't fulfill her end of the bargain in Kickstarter: http://readwrite.com/2013/03/19/anita-sarkeesian-i-love-you-but-please-show-me-the-money She was suppose to release all 5 parts of Women vs Tropes videos: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games " Pledge $250 or more 38 backers A DVD copy of all Tropes vs. Women in Video Games episodes in the web series. PLUS all of the above! Estimated delivery: Dec 2012 " At earlier she the first part of her first part of the series on Mar 7, 2013. Source: That's right, each 5 parts are now DIVIDED by 3 PARTS! Sounds familiar? Because Sons of StarCraft promised a featured length film, Source: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1751892223/the-sons-of-starcraft but instead it is cut into episodes: http://www.ongamers.com/articles/sons-of-starcraft-premieres-11-14-13/1100-63/ And she is already 6 months late to finish up ALL her 5 parts. As indicated in the "all Tropes vs. Women in Video Games episodes". As of now, she have only released part 2 of the promised part 2 installment of "gaming stereotype". scam skam/Submit nouninformal 1. a dishonest scheme; a fraud. Source: https://www.google.ca/search?q=scam&oq=scam&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.648j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=scam definition fraud frôd/Submit noun wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain. source: https://www.google.ca/search?q=scam&oq=scam&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.648j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=fraud definition So by definition, her conducts fits into both of the definition. Denying them at this point is simply exhibiting delusions to nth degree. | ||
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Dunnobro
United States67 Posts
I'd love more games like those, there are female gamers and I don't think ignoring them is the answer. Men do have a lot and females are rather hungry, if you can make a good female game for them it can do well I would think due to the demand vacuum. Do note though, attacking developers for catering to men is wrong. It solves nothing. It tells them what not to do and provides no solution, just hurts people. Though really it seems like developers try to cater to both a lot these days and people just point out when they do it to men. | ||
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Millitron
United States2611 Posts
On October 18 2014 11:28 levelping wrote: Sexism should be done away with and I totally would like for lots of unnecessary sexist stuff to be removed from a medium which I love. I dont get the points that market should be geared at the largest demographic, or that since no girls play games it's okay to cater to male fantasy trips. Why do we need girls to be present to clear up sexism? Shouldn't we clean up the house since sexism is generally bad whether or not girls are here? And also so what if movies or the rest other world has sexism issues too. As gamers we can look at the one area we can make better. How do you propose not gearing any industry towards the largest demographic? Young males buy the most videogames, ergo there is the most incentive for developers to design games with their preferences in mind. And I'm not saying I'm happy with the current target demographic for videogames. I love serious, realistic, difficult games, and those are simply few and far between now. Call of Duty sold so well because it targeted the biggest demographic, which is people with short attention spans. I don't like the series, but I don't hold it against them or try to change it. I accept that I am not the target demographic. | ||
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levelping
Singapore759 Posts
On October 18 2014 11:37 CakeSauc3 wrote: How are game developers going to make money if they don't aim for the largest demographic? They sell the product that their consumers want. Supply and demand. That's not sexist - that's just life. If/when girl gamers become more "hardcore" on average and that demographic expands, the design of games will shift to accommodate them better. Though I doubt we'll see less sexy/vulnerable women in games - we'll just see more powerful female characters to balance out the powerful male characters. And actually, if you look back at the last ten years of gaming, I think you can clearly see a trend of that very thing happening. Eventually, we'll get there - but it just hasn't happened yet. People are just overreacting. Sorry but supply and demand is an incredibly lazy argument. It is just a descriptive explanation of what is happening, whereas the conversation which being had on the Internet is how games should be - a normative issue and not a descriptive one. Just because market forces have produced the current demographic does not mean it is desireable socially. Just think about it - if we had a situation where the largets demographic of movie goers were from a particular religion, or race, and so the big movie studies continue to cast other races or religions as caricatures, how would this be in any way palatable just because of supply and demand? In any event, the entire point of the discussion which is happening now is to make people more aware to how women are presented in gaming, so that demand for scantily clad damsels goes down. | ||
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Dunnobro
United States67 Posts
The market was always this way, looooong before we could even really sexualize games. Your egg-chicken theory also ignores that there is an entire industry dedicated to investigating demographics and not to target to them. Guess how they determine the best way to target women? Phone games. Race and religion have no such studies or wild differences in biology between them. | ||
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levelping
Singapore759 Posts
On October 18 2014 11:42 Millitron wrote: How do you propose not gearing any industry towards the largest demographic? Young males buy the most videogames, ergo there is the most incentive for developers to design games with their preferences in mind. And I'm not saying I'm happy with the current target demographic for videogames. I love serious, realistic, difficult games, and those are simply few and far between now. Call of Duty sold so well because it targeted the biggest demographic, which is people with short attention spans. I don't like the series, but I don't hold it against them or try to change it. I accept that I am not the target demographic. I think the point of the discussion now is to make young males a little more aware of how women and portrayed in games, and hopefully change the views of the largest demographic. Or alternatively, to convince big studios to take a risk and stop pandering to its existing audience, but instead try and expand the market by being more inclusive. | ||
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Dunnobro
United States67 Posts
On October 18 2014 11:48 levelping wrote: Or alternatively, to convince big studios to take a risk and stop pandering to its existing audience, but instead try and expand the market by being more inclusive. You seem to be under the impression they don't already do this. You're focusing on when they DON'T do this instead of when they do. See the list of ps3 games on sale for a good example of great games which do this. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On October 18 2014 11:25 WolfintheSheep wrote: Speaking of action movies...notice how Sony pulled in the female audience for X-Men? Did they do away with the skintight outfits on women, and get Mystique to dress more conservatively? Nope. Skintight suits for all, latex bodysuit for Rebecca Romijin, but most importantly Hugh Jackman with at least 5 shirtless scenes every movie. Exactly. I don't think women want asexual characters or 'SJW — the Game.' They just want games where female characters have actually agency and personalities. When the ONLY representation of a woman in a game is as a sex object, I think it's fair to say, hey, this game is kind of sexist. Or at the very least, pandering to dudes. | ||
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