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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18387 Posts
February 17 2018 15:27 GMT
#198581
On February 17 2018 23:50 sc-darkness wrote:
Have democrats announced who will be their next candidate to be president? Hopefully Sanders but I doubt it.

You hope it'll be Sanders because you think he'll lose? From what you were doing in the UK politics thread you seem pretty opposed to virtually everything Sanders wants?
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12486 Posts
February 17 2018 16:02 GMT
#198582
On February 18 2018 00:27 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2018 23:50 sc-darkness wrote:
Have democrats announced who will be their next candidate to be president? Hopefully Sanders but I doubt it.

You hope it'll be Sanders because you think he'll lose? From what you were doing in the UK politics thread you seem pretty opposed to virtually everything Sanders wants?


Can't imagine someone thinking Sanders would lose 2020 in the current circumstances
No will to live, no wish to die
GoTuNk!
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Chile4591 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-17 16:03:04
February 17 2018 16:02 GMT
#198583
On February 18 2018 00:27 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2018 23:50 sc-darkness wrote:
Have democrats announced who will be their next candidate to be president? Hopefully Sanders but I doubt it.

You hope it'll be Sanders because you think he'll lose? From what you were doing in the UK politics thread you seem pretty opposed to virtually everything Sanders wants?


A full blown socialist like Sanders would wreck the U.S. and hit the world pretty hard, I'd rather he not run in the off chance he could win. he is a thousand years old though.
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
February 17 2018 16:56 GMT
#198584
On February 18 2018 01:02 GoTuNk! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2018 00:27 Acrofales wrote:
On February 17 2018 23:50 sc-darkness wrote:
Have democrats announced who will be their next candidate to be president? Hopefully Sanders but I doubt it.

You hope it'll be Sanders because you think he'll lose? From what you were doing in the UK politics thread you seem pretty opposed to virtually everything Sanders wants?


A full blown socialist like Sanders would wreck the U.S. and hit the world pretty hard, I'd rather he not run in the off chance he could win. he is a thousand years old though.


That he's old is the primary argument against him running.

But honestly the guy is pretty healthy. I don't get it. He's in better shape, both mentally and physically, than Trump is in now. And it's not even particularly close.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
February 17 2018 17:00 GMT
#198585
On February 18 2018 01:56 Dromar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2018 01:02 GoTuNk! wrote:
On February 18 2018 00:27 Acrofales wrote:
On February 17 2018 23:50 sc-darkness wrote:
Have democrats announced who will be their next candidate to be president? Hopefully Sanders but I doubt it.

You hope it'll be Sanders because you think he'll lose? From what you were doing in the UK politics thread you seem pretty opposed to virtually everything Sanders wants?


A full blown socialist like Sanders would wreck the U.S. and hit the world pretty hard, I'd rather he not run in the off chance he could win. he is a thousand years old though.


That he's old is the primary argument against him running.

But honestly the guy is pretty healthy. I don't get it. He's in better shape, both mentally and physically, than Trump is in now. And it's not even particularly close.

being better than trump isn't much of a bar, nor is being quite a bit better than trump; that's still a very low bar.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24154 Posts
February 17 2018 17:27 GMT
#198586
On February 18 2018 02:00 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2018 01:56 Dromar wrote:
On February 18 2018 01:02 GoTuNk! wrote:
On February 18 2018 00:27 Acrofales wrote:
On February 17 2018 23:50 sc-darkness wrote:
Have democrats announced who will be their next candidate to be president? Hopefully Sanders but I doubt it.

You hope it'll be Sanders because you think he'll lose? From what you were doing in the UK politics thread you seem pretty opposed to virtually everything Sanders wants?


A full blown socialist like Sanders would wreck the U.S. and hit the world pretty hard, I'd rather he not run in the off chance he could win. he is a thousand years old though.


That he's old is the primary argument against him running.

But honestly the guy is pretty healthy. I don't get it. He's in better shape, both mentally and physically, than Trump is in now. And it's not even particularly close.

being better than trump isn't much of a bar, nor is being quite a bit better than trump; that's still a very low bar.


Was and is healthier than Hillary too. If her health wasn't disqualifying I don't know how his could be (for Hillary voters anyway).

He's not my first pick, but he's a hell of a lot better than someone like Kamala Harris or Corey Booker. Perhaps I should outline all of my problems with every potential Democratic candidate soon, as to preempt more accusations of being manipulated by Russians without evidence (even though we have a very clear example of liberals being manipulated with US propaganda, and a second less obvious example).

Something tells me it won't matter, any criticism of Democrats from the left is pure Russian propaganda forever I imagine.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18866 Posts
February 17 2018 17:27 GMT
#198587
On February 18 2018 01:02 GoTuNk! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2018 00:27 Acrofales wrote:
On February 17 2018 23:50 sc-darkness wrote:
Have democrats announced who will be their next candidate to be president? Hopefully Sanders but I doubt it.

You hope it'll be Sanders because you think he'll lose? From what you were doing in the UK politics thread you seem pretty opposed to virtually everything Sanders wants?


A full blown socialist like Sanders would wreck the U.S. and hit the world pretty hard, I'd rather he not run in the off chance he could win. he is a thousand years old though.

This is a load of unsubstantiated crap that can only come from a place of fearmongering the likes of which the US encouraged in Chile through support for men like Pinochet.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
February 17 2018 17:42 GMT
#198588
On February 18 2018 02:27 GreenHorizons wrote:
Something tells me it won't matter, any criticism of Democrats from the left is pure Russian propaganda forever I imagine.

Look, you're either for [Hillary or equivalent], or you're [against Democracy / supporting the rise of fascism / victim of Russian propaganda / destroying America and the principles it stands for / a racist sexist bigot].

This story was told before any inkling of Russia came around, it'll be told after that story runs its course. It's a coping mechanism to deal with how badly the centrist consensus (including Hillary but also Jeb! and other Republican candidates who got bodied by Trump) dropped the ball.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
plated.rawr
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Norway1676 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-17 17:46:09
February 17 2018 17:45 GMT
#198589
On February 18 2018 01:02 GoTuNk! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2018 00:27 Acrofales wrote:
On February 17 2018 23:50 sc-darkness wrote:
Have democrats announced who will be their next candidate to be president? Hopefully Sanders but I doubt it.

You hope it'll be Sanders because you think he'll lose? From what you were doing in the UK politics thread you seem pretty opposed to virtually everything Sanders wants?


A full blown socialist like Sanders would wreck the U.S. and hit the world pretty hard, I'd rather he not run in the off chance he could win. he is a thousand years old though.

Sanders is a social democrat, not a socialist. A socialist ruling system would be the transitional goverment on the path to communistic redistribution of ownership, something which social democracy (or any modern nation) is not. If you're going to be afraid of ideologies, at least know what they are.

That said, I'd think Sanders has blown his chance really, and he'd be too old in the coming presidental election. I also don't think the US is ready for a social democratic president, as the other elected representatives in House and Congress probably wouldn't be up for zany ideas such as "functioning, affordable health-care for all" and "tax-financed, solid education for all".

Point being, change for social democracy in the US needs to be a grass-root movement to envelop a lot of elected positions, not simply that of the president.
Savior broke my heart ;_; || twitch.tv/onnings
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
February 17 2018 17:50 GMT
#198590
Sanders probably had his run, and it wouldn't really make sense to go for 2020 for him. The problem, though, is the lack of like-minded, but viable, candidates of similar appeal currently within the party. Warren failed to present herself as a credible candidate when given the chance and most of the rising "stars" within the Democratic party are just poorly conceived attempts to manufacture an Obama clone (Booker, Castro come to mind). Sanders was sort of unique, in that he was a bit of an outsider to the party itself with a long history of consistency - in an election where those were considered valuable qualities. Problem is that the party is nothing short of broken and outsiders are seldom well-regarded, so it's hard to find a viable successor.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-17 18:00:24
February 17 2018 17:56 GMT
#198591
On February 18 2018 02:27 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2018 02:00 zlefin wrote:
On February 18 2018 01:56 Dromar wrote:
On February 18 2018 01:02 GoTuNk! wrote:
On February 18 2018 00:27 Acrofales wrote:
On February 17 2018 23:50 sc-darkness wrote:
Have democrats announced who will be their next candidate to be president? Hopefully Sanders but I doubt it.

You hope it'll be Sanders because you think he'll lose? From what you were doing in the UK politics thread you seem pretty opposed to virtually everything Sanders wants?


A full blown socialist like Sanders would wreck the U.S. and hit the world pretty hard, I'd rather he not run in the off chance he could win. he is a thousand years old though.


That he's old is the primary argument against him running.

But honestly the guy is pretty healthy. I don't get it. He's in better shape, both mentally and physically, than Trump is in now. And it's not even particularly close.

being better than trump isn't much of a bar, nor is being quite a bit better than trump; that's still a very low bar.


Was and is healthier than Hillary too. If her health wasn't disqualifying I don't know how his could be (for Hillary voters anyway).

He's not my first pick, but he's a hell of a lot better than someone like Kamala Harris or Corey Booker. Perhaps I should outline all of my problems with every potential Democratic candidate soon, as to preempt more accusations of being manipulated by Russians without evidence (even though we have a very clear example of liberals being manipulated with US propaganda, and a second less obvious example).

Something tells me it won't matter, any criticism of Democrats from the left is pure Russian propaganda forever I imagine.

what citations/basis do you have for his current health/health then?
at any rate; I agree it wasn't disqualifying last cycle; but by the next one it's really getting a bit too old.
also, be less of a jerk and/or don't respond to me.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12486 Posts
February 17 2018 18:14 GMT
#198592
Who is your first pick GH, if you have one?
No will to live, no wish to die
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
February 17 2018 18:25 GMT
#198593
On February 17 2018 12:59 Plansix wrote:
I truly believe Trump is so out of touch with reality that he didn’t even know that accepting assistance from Russia would come back on him. Or he didn’t believe that it would be considered highly illegal. The Presidency is just something that black asshole that made fun of him earn, so it couldn’t be that important. So why not take a little assistance Russia or some other country?



This is how I think Mueller will end his investigation. He's not going to conclude that Trump was some 1337 spy coordinating with Putin from the beginning. He's going to find that Trump was a useful unwitting idiot. Whether or not he'll find that what started off unwitting became witting or even a cover-up/obstruction is less clear to me but it seems likely too.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-17 18:36:31
February 17 2018 18:34 GMT
#198594
On February 18 2018 03:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2018 12:59 Plansix wrote:
I truly believe Trump is so out of touch with reality that he didn’t even know that accepting assistance from Russia would come back on him. Or he didn’t believe that it would be considered highly illegal. The Presidency is just something that black asshole that made fun of him earn, so it couldn’t be that important. So why not take a little assistance Russia or some other country?



This is how I think Mueller will end his investigation. He's not going to conclude that Trump was some 1337 spy coordinating with Putin from the beginning. He's going to find that Trump was a useful unwitting idiot. Whether or not he'll find that what started off unwitting became witting or even a cover-up/obstruction is less clear to me but it seems likely too.


There are few people for whom I'm more willing to apply Hanlon's Razor than Donald Trump (never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out malice).

All the news I've seen thus far has reinforced the possibility for me that Trump made some godawful hiring decisions (and then ceded authority to the individuals in question because he's a pure delegator with no actual skills) which were driven by the fact that only scum wanted to work with or under him, resulting in a pretty messy campaign that probably fucked up at a few points legally.

Then because he has the potent combination of big ego and massive stupidity, he tried to kill an investigation that would expose that he hired terrible people (and gave them substantial power and authority because of his allergy to work) that in his heart of hearts he also believes probably fucked up at multiple points.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22487 Posts
February 17 2018 18:35 GMT
#198595
On February 18 2018 03:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2018 12:59 Plansix wrote:
I truly believe Trump is so out of touch with reality that he didn’t even know that accepting assistance from Russia would come back on him. Or he didn’t believe that it would be considered highly illegal. The Presidency is just something that black asshole that made fun of him earn, so it couldn’t be that important. So why not take a little assistance Russia or some other country?



This is how I think Mueller will end his investigation. He's not going to conclude that Trump was some 1337 spy coordinating with Putin from the beginning. He's going to find that Trump was a useful unwitting idiot. Whether or not he'll find that what started off unwitting became witting or even a cover-up/obstruction is less clear to me but it seems likely too.

It most likely started out as a useful unwitting idiot but if Trump accepted aid (like at the Trump tower meeting) then it stops being an unwitting idiot and goes right into being a (potential) crime.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
February 17 2018 18:49 GMT
#198596
Trump is a vain reality TV star who fell in quickly with anyone willing to throw their support behind him - which included the dregs of Washington. His praise for Russia seems to have started as something akin to conservative radio style "strong leader" hype which kind of evolved into something completely different after Putin commended a few kind remarks on Trump's part and he was branded the "Russia candidate." Beyond that? I'm sure the investigation, and the media sideshow that needs to keep the story alive in perpetuity, will fill in the gaps.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
February 17 2018 18:56 GMT
#198597
On February 18 2018 03:34 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2018 03:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On February 17 2018 12:59 Plansix wrote:
I truly believe Trump is so out of touch with reality that he didn’t even know that accepting assistance from Russia would come back on him. Or he didn’t believe that it would be considered highly illegal. The Presidency is just something that black asshole that made fun of him earn, so it couldn’t be that important. So why not take a little assistance Russia or some other country?



This is how I think Mueller will end his investigation. He's not going to conclude that Trump was some 1337 spy coordinating with Putin from the beginning. He's going to find that Trump was a useful unwitting idiot. Whether or not he'll find that what started off unwitting became witting or even a cover-up/obstruction is less clear to me but it seems likely too.


There are few people for whom I'm more willing to apply Hanlon's Razor than Donald Trump (never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out malice).

All the news I've seen thus far has reinforced the possibility for me that Trump made some godawful hiring decisions (and then ceded authority to the individuals in question because he's a pure delegator with no actual skills) which were driven by the fact that only scum wanted to work with or under him, resulting in a pretty messy campaign that probably fucked up at a few points legally.

Then because he has the potent combination of big ego and massive stupidity, he tried to kill an investigation that would expose that he hired terrible people (and gave them substantial power and authority because of his allergy to work) that in his heart of hearts he also believes probably fucked up at multiple points.

I really don't think that Trump believes he could ever fuck up being the president. The rampant narcissism just doesn't allow for it. I don't think he's taken responsibility for anything that didn't go well in his presidency. Every problem is someone else's fault, because clearly he didn't make that mistake.

The combination of being a powerful idiot and surrounding himself with malicious/corrupt yes-men/women just makes it worse.
Porouscloud - NA LoL
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8148 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-17 19:05:43
February 17 2018 19:03 GMT
#198598
On February 18 2018 02:27 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2018 01:02 GoTuNk! wrote:
On February 18 2018 00:27 Acrofales wrote:
On February 17 2018 23:50 sc-darkness wrote:
Have democrats announced who will be their next candidate to be president? Hopefully Sanders but I doubt it.

You hope it'll be Sanders because you think he'll lose? From what you were doing in the UK politics thread you seem pretty opposed to virtually everything Sanders wants?


A full blown socialist like Sanders would wreck the U.S. and hit the world pretty hard, I'd rather he not run in the off chance he could win. he is a thousand years old though.

This is a load of unsubstantiated crap that can only come from a place of fearmongering the likes of which the US encouraged in Chile through support for men like Pinochet.

I wouldn’t be surprised if GT was of the opinion that Pinochet was not that bad and saved the country from the disastrous communist Allende. He sounds like a pro Franco spanish grandmother during the civil war when he goes about “socialists”.

And as weird as it sounds, the hard right in Chile actually does regret Pinochet, just as you will find solid nostalgia for Mussolini in Italy amongst tge most right wing people.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
iamthedave
Profile Joined February 2011
England2814 Posts
February 17 2018 19:04 GMT
#198599
On February 18 2018 03:34 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2018 03:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On February 17 2018 12:59 Plansix wrote:
I truly believe Trump is so out of touch with reality that he didn’t even know that accepting assistance from Russia would come back on him. Or he didn’t believe that it would be considered highly illegal. The Presidency is just something that black asshole that made fun of him earn, so it couldn’t be that important. So why not take a little assistance Russia or some other country?



This is how I think Mueller will end his investigation. He's not going to conclude that Trump was some 1337 spy coordinating with Putin from the beginning. He's going to find that Trump was a useful unwitting idiot. Whether or not he'll find that what started off unwitting became witting or even a cover-up/obstruction is less clear to me but it seems likely too.


There are few people for whom I'm more willing to apply Hanlon's Razor than Donald Trump (never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out malice).

All the news I've seen thus far has reinforced the possibility for me that Trump made some godawful hiring decisions (and then ceded authority to the individuals in question because he's a pure delegator with no actual skills) which were driven by the fact that only scum wanted to work with or under him, resulting in a pretty messy campaign that probably fucked up at a few points legally.

Then because he has the potent combination of big ego and massive stupidity, he tried to kill an investigation that would expose that he hired terrible people (and gave them substantial power and authority because of his allergy to work) that in his heart of hearts he also believes probably fucked up at multiple points.


Donald Trump is 100% malicious. There's plenty of people on the record about how petty he is, how long and how deeply he holds grudges, and how eager he is to see anyone who's slighted him pay for doing so.

I do not think he even faintly believes he has done anything wrong. It's ALWAYS someone else. He'd probably blame whoever put the table there if he knocked over a glass of water.

Still, regardless of my personal opinion on the Drumpster's (lack of) character; which hiring decisions do you think he genuinely regrets?

If I was going to be charitable towards him (I'm not), I'd say he probably regrets Jeff Sessions, Scaramucci, and... whoever it was Scaramucci replaced. Genuinely can't remember his name though I remember him hiding in bushes. MAYBE the guy leading the EPA?
I'm not bad at Starcraft; I just think winning's rude.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
February 17 2018 19:09 GMT
#198600
Sean Spicer?
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
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