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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
From what I understand, this trade agreement wasn't profitable to Americans in a domestic sense, but it may have helped American influence in the Asian region. That's the trade-off there. Is there anyone able to give their own analysis on that problem? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18048 Posts
On November 12 2016 07:08 Blisse wrote: Honestly, people are a bit too up in arms about the percentages. Unless it was that absurd 97% Hillary chance that one paper gave, if you play poker a lot, you'll know that even AA vs KK is 80% to 20%, and every poker player thinks that's too high even because their aces get cracked all the time. Probabilities are rough. Just chipping in that while I agree completely with the overall message, the AA vs KK odds are not a good estimate of pocket rockets' chance of being cracked, as all hands have a (sometimes very minor) chance of beating it. Hell, you could hold a 7 and a 2, and with 2 2s on the table (and no aces) your shittiest of all hands beat pocket rockets'. | ||
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LastWish
2013 Posts
On November 12 2016 13:20 Nyxisto wrote: The democrats absolutely do not need to rush. Until the GOP finds a way to make angry white men immortal they are governing on borrowed time. I mean I pretty much said this before this election and it turned out to be wrong but at some point they're going to lose the demographic battle. This is actually what is wrong with the neo-liberals. They are ok bashing white people no problem. They read the history books and white people are the slavers the racists the bigots the sexists... But in fact most of the living white people have nothing to do with this. It's like the inherited sin that some christians believe in. If I now replaced the "angry white people" with "angry black people", "angry women", "angry gays", "angry muslims" then you wouldn't like it. So stop using the form of language you dispise and make yourself a better person in the process. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On November 12 2016 19:13 LastWish wrote: This is actually what is wrong with the neo-liberals. They are ok bashing white people no problem. They read the history books and white people are the slavers the racists the bigots the sexists... But in fact most of the living white people have nothing to do with this. It's like the inherited sin that some christians believe in. If I now replaced the "angry white people" with "angry black people", "angry women", "angry gays", "angry muslims" then you wouldn't like it. So stop using the form of language you dispise and make yourself a better person in the process. Reading comments like that one reminds me of reading twitch chat talking about jews except for some reason it isn't shunned as much as it should be. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18048 Posts
On November 12 2016 19:13 LastWish wrote: This is actually what is wrong with the neo-liberals. They are ok bashing white people no problem. They read the history books and white people are the slavers the racists the bigots the sexists... But in fact most of the living white people have nothing to do with this. It's like the inherited sin that some christians believe in. If I now replaced the "angry white people" with "angry black people", "angry women", "angry gays", "angry muslims" then you wouldn't like it. So stop using the form of language you dispise and make yourself a better person in the process. Every time someone writes something like this, I am just going to post this blog, in the hope that some people will eventually read it and have an honest discussion about the topic. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7902 Posts
On November 12 2016 19:43 kongoline wrote: ^ Muslim coutries have as rich history of slavery as white people and woman are second grade citizens even now yet liberals treat them like sacred cows I think it might be that liberals make the difference between countries and people. | ||
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LastWish
2013 Posts
On November 12 2016 19:36 Acrofales wrote: Every time someone writes something like this, I am just going to post this blog, in the hope that some people will eventually read it and have an honest discussion about the topic. If you really believe in what you have just posted then I feel really bad for you. You are an individual just like every other person on earth. If you put someone into some basket according to the place/race/sex he/she has been born then you are in fact the racist, sexist... | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18048 Posts
On November 12 2016 20:10 LastWish wrote: If you really believe in what you have just posted then I feel really bad for you. You are an individual just like every other person on earth. If you put someone into some basket according to the place/race/sex he/she has been born then you are in fact the racist, sexist... I think we read that blog differently. I didn't see any mention of baskets. What I saw was it pointing out quite explicitly that while you are an individual, you are very much a product of society and history. And who and what you are today is not exclusively because of you. So far no controversy, I presume? So let's continue. Today's society, shares the responsibility for rectifying the errors of what came before. No blame, no name-calling. Just an admission that not all is right with the world, and that even if you are not personally to blame, as part of the society in which it is wrong, it is your responsibility to help in improving society. Can we agree on this, so far very abstract, argument? | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
On November 12 2016 19:36 Acrofales wrote: Every time someone writes something like this, I am just going to post this blog, in the hope that some people will eventually read it and have an honest discussion about the topic. Although I understand what this blog is saying (although it is pretty patronizing), it makes no difference in the grand scheme of things. Having a go at people for being white is perfectly fine if that's what you want to do, but then acting all confused and surprised when they tell you to go and fuck yourself by voting in Trump and voting for Brexit etc. is moronic to say the least. You started a fight with them and they won. Of course, this ultra hardcore original sin leftist group then go back to themselves and congratulate each other about how right they were about white people after all, and refuse to even ask if they bear any responsibility for how the left is now being demonized. Well let me tell you, they do, it is this attitude that has swung these elections. People are fucking sick of the phrase 'white male' being used disparagingly in countries that white males have built, countries that, honestly, have the best recent record of attempting to placate minority groups, of trying to be fair to women in male dominated societies. Most people in the UK don't want to be attacked for expressing genuine concerns about Islam and middle eastern refugees, but they are called racist and their concerns are just added to the encyclopedia of white male original sin. So now we have Trump and Brexit and the left is happily going about their business branding the majority of their population racist, sexist pigs as if that's going to help their case. As a socialist myself, I feel like my political views are tainted by this bullshit, and it makes me furious. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18048 Posts
On November 12 2016 19:43 kongoline wrote: ^ Muslim coutries have as rich history of slavery as white people and woman are second grade citizens even now yet liberals treat them like sacred cows When did "but mummy, Johnny did it too" become a valid argument in adult conversation? Beside that you're arguing with someone who isn't here. I will happily argue that Saudi Arabia (and some other Islamic theocracies as well) is a despicable society. So I guess I don't treat muslims as "sacred cows". Now can we move on with an intelligent debate instead of just arguments in absentia? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18048 Posts
On November 12 2016 20:42 Jockmcplop wrote: Although I understand what this blog is saying (although it is pretty patronizing), it makes no difference in the grand scheme of things. Having a go at people for being white is perfectly fine if that's what you want to do, but then acting all confused and surprised when they tell you to go and fuck yourself by voting in Trump and voting for Brexit etc. is moronic to say the least. You started a fight with them and they won. Of course, this ultra hardcore original sin leftist group then go back to themselves and congratulate each other about how right they were about white people after all, and refuse to even ask if they bear any responsibility for how the left is now being demonized. Well let me tell you, they do, it is this attitude that has swung these elections. People are fucking sick of the phrase 'white male' being used disparagingly in countries that white males have built, countries that, honestly, have the best recent record of attempting to placate minority groups, of trying to be fair to women in male dominated societies. Most people in the UK don't want to be attacked for expressing genuine concerns about Islam and middle eastern refugees, but they are called racist and their concerns are just added to the encyclopedia of white male original sin. So now we have Trump and Brexit and the left is happily going about their business branding the majority of their population racist, sexist pigs as if that's going to help their case. As a socialist myself, I feel like my political views are tainted by this bullshit, and it makes me furious. Good thing this was the accompanying piece to another blog, by the same auth, stating exactly that. And also the vlog from yesterday (one of many contextless YouTube links, so excuse me for not searching for it) by a different author, but also expressing the view that we should have a discussion, rather than name-calling the other side (whether that name is racist or sjw cuck). But I don't believe that is the point of the blog to try to guilt trip you because you are a white male. In fact, it goes out of its way to emphasize that it is not assigning blame. You can be blameless, but still responsible. As for your sideways point about middle eastern refugees in England, that's a different discussion for a different thread. Suffice to say that I think the fears are somewhat justified, but that we should accept (real) refugees despite being afraid. Having a discussion about those fears, and trying to find policies (other than shutting down the borders) to deal with the downsides is a fantastic idea. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
I'm sorry for the silly comparison but i'm sure if you follow Hitler's beliefs back far enough you will probably find some quite reasonable, fair literature behind them. When I read on facebook the same people day in, day out, talking about cis-white males and their evil influence on our world, it makes the whole left look like a petty, ignorant group of fundamentalists. So the blog isn't trying to guilt trip me for being white, but the people who use that blog as justification for their fundamentalist beliefs WILL try and guilt trip me for being white. I only make the point about the UK and the Brexit vote because it is a similar situation which I have first hand experience of, whereas the US election was also reliant on certain cultural factors that I don't really have any hope of understanding properly because I haven't experienced them. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On November 12 2016 19:13 LastWish wrote: This is actually what is wrong with the neo-liberals. They are ok bashing white people no problem. They read the history books and white people are the slavers the racists the bigots the sexists... But in fact most of the living white people have nothing to do with this. It's like the inherited sin that some christians believe in. If I now replaced the "angry white people" with "angry black people", "angry women", "angry gays", "angry muslims" then you wouldn't like it. So stop using the form of language you dispise and make yourself a better person in the process. I approve of this message. On November 12 2016 19:36 Acrofales wrote: Every time someone writes something like this, I am just going to post this blog, in the hope that some people will eventually read it and have an honest discussion about the topic. Thsi blog is everything that's wrong with modern politics : some scientific gibberish (you have genes !) and abstraction to justify stupid naming. For exemple, if the first point was right, then every kind of abstraction is possible : you can criticize any german for its indirect involvement in the 2nd WW, you can judge any kind of jew for the killing of Jesus (ho those damned basterds ho my gad). It's resentment politics : you might not be a camel, maybe you're a lion, but you're certainly not a child. I'll give you some insight on social sciences just for the lolz. In social science there is an old divide between individualist and holist (micro and macro perspective). One of the solution to that was the development of a probabilist perspective (like in Bourdieu's work). In statistics, it has been showed that a system can be determinist from a macro perspective while still completly undeterminist from a micro perspective (individual atoms have huge degree of freedom - their behavior can be entirely random - and yet at the collective level they behave as the law says they should). This mean that collectively, our society can be structured in groups with different interests and behaviors, even if individually we are all different, free (somewhat) and responsible for our actions. So when you go directly from the collective ("statistically, the people who have power in the US are white") to the individual ("all white have power, and you as a white have power, so fuck you whitey"), you're making a huge mistake. And seriously, this kind of problem can be resolved with a simple behavior : don't be a dick, listen to others whatever their skin color, and have some empathy. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12261 Posts
On November 12 2016 21:20 Jockmcplop wrote: When I read on facebook the same people day in, day out, talking about cis-white males and their evil influence on our world, it makes the whole left look like a petty, ignorant group of fundamentalists. It seems you have some unreasonable expectations for the left. Every group is going to look stupid in the circumstances you portray here. You are also being unfair in your conclusions. If you think the article is legitimate but is being used wrong, your conclusion should be: talk to these people using it wrong, and show them how they should be using it. Instead your conclusion is: dismiss the article because it can be used wrong. That is not a logical conclusion of the argument you offered here. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
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stilt
France2750 Posts
On November 12 2016 20:38 Acrofales wrote: I think we read that blog differently. I didn't see any mention of baskets. What I saw was it pointing out quite explicitly that while you are an individual, you are very much a product of society and history. And who and what you are today is not exclusively because of you. So far no controversy, I presume? So let's continue. Today's society, shares the responsibility for rectifying the errors of what came before. No blame, no name-calling. Just an admission that not all is right with the world, and that even if you are not personally to blame, as part of the society in which it is wrong, it is your responsibility to help in improving society. Can we agree on this, so far very abstract, argument? The fact that sth like slavery was made by the dominant class you actually represent and not the lower seems a nice memory lapse. Made the white trashs paid for all your bullshits is like what? Quite immoral. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
On November 12 2016 21:40 Nebuchad wrote: It seems you have some unreasonable expectations for the left. Every group is going to look stupid in the circumstances you portray here. My expectations aren't particularly unreasonable. In such a polarized political environment this kind of insane fundamentalism becomes the standard and makes everyone look bad. My only expectations for the left is that as a group we fight battles we can win at important times instead of trying to put guilt on the vast majority of the people that we are trying to win over. It seems more like common sense than unreasonable expectations. You are also being unfair in your conclusions. If you think the article is legitimate but is being used wrong, your conclusion should be: talk to these people using it wrong, and show them how they should be using it. Instead your conclusion is: dismiss the article because it can be used wrong. That is not a logical conclusion of the argument you offered here. Fair point, but I haven't really dismissed the article, I have said repeatedly that it is fair, although the position it is trying to justify is a little bit extreme and basically not helpful when it comes to today's political environment. Also have you ever tried telling a SJW they are wrong? It doesn't work, they just call you a racist, sexist cis white male and go back to their little happy group of SJWs where they are the ultimate arbiters of moral worth. Even the fact that they have driven America to vote in Donald fucking Trump hasn't given them the hint that they are totally wrong in what they are campaigning for. The way I see, we need to try and create a society that is fair to everyone. This is what SJWs want, its what everyone else on the left wants, and its probably (at a push) what the majority of people in the US want. The left should be campaigning for this not by trying to expose some inherent racism by which we all live but by pushing a system which has fairness at its core. One thing Trump has done is offer solutions (however moronic), the SJW movement has done none of that, they just rage against the whole system without offering anything better that would work. Of course, when you make this argument to them they just say that they are doing what's right in fighting for equality. Its not that simple though. If in doing that, you create circumstances where Trump can be elected you are doing the wrong thing completely. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12261 Posts
On November 12 2016 21:58 Jockmcplop wrote: Fair point, but I haven't really dismissed the article, I have said repeatedly that it is fair, although the position it is trying to justify is a little bit extreme and basically not helpful when it comes to today's political environment. You are dismissing it in that you present a logical connexion between the existence of this article and a trumpian reaction by cis white males. If the article is fair, it shouldn't elicit such a reaction, or that reaction should be perceived as incorrect and/or irrational. On November 12 2016 21:58 Jockmcplop wrote: Also have you ever tried telling a SJW they are wrong? It doesn't work, they just call you a racist, sexist cis white male and go back to their little happy group of SJWs where they are the ultimate arbiters of moral worth. Yes I have, actually. And none of that has happened. Have you done that yourself, or are you just trusting other people's account that this happens? | ||
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Sent.
Poland9213 Posts
The way I see, we need to try and create a society that is fair to everyone. This is what SJWs want, its what everyone else on the left wants, and its probably (at a push) what the majority of people in the US want. MRAs also want a fair society but just like SJWs they have a very unique definition of fairness. I don't think it's useful to say that SJWs want to create a society that is fair to everyone (according to them) because everyone else thinks such society wouldn't be fair. | ||
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