In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
On March 24 2016 10:14 oneofthem wrote: [quote] she's been in government for too long. back in the day she was able to rally the troops well, but the new generation don't have a clue what she went through in the 90's.
I think you have it backwards. People know exactly "what she went through in the 90s." It's not an accident that everyone thinks that she is a liar and political hack.
eh i was talking about liberal younglings. they would not take the gop view of that period.
that bernie is tapping into rather than help defuse this popular but ill founded image of hillary is deeply unfortunate
Liberal younglings think that she's a liar too. It's not just the "right wing conspiracy" that thinks so.
this is because they are morons
Are you really going to hold her up as a paragon of truth and virtue? Good fucking luck with that. Honesty and consistency are not Hillary's strengths. I find it hilarious that you're arguing otherwise.
uh no it is okay to lie in politics. the younglings just vastly overvalue honesty and all that. you need to get shit done not choose a priest
hillary is dedicated to the policy work and has only lied to do some politics. this is rly good
What good policy work has she done? She was SoS during worst part of Obama's presidency foreign policy-wise.
she's active on many committees while a senator. her current platform is the best the progressive side has to offer on many issues. her work as sos was marred by adventurism in some critical junctures but we look forward not exclusively back in assessing future capacity as president.
bottom line she works hard, has sensibility for often complicated issues and is sincerely dedicated to pushing for progressive outcomes. many of obama's hanging policies need a detail focused follow through. she is really capable in this respect.
See, I read this as an admission of her executive incompetence. I have no doubt that she has worked her ass off wherever she has been, but results matter. And her results over the course of 25 years in the national spotlight are wanting to say the least. The only reason why she has gone as far as she has is her last name. I totally get that you want a competent technocrat to be the president, but she is not it.
i disagree having reviewed some of her armed forces committee work. she learns and is an arbitor of policy as they are presented by experts. many politicians dont even read that closely.
no doubt shes made some highly questionable tradeoff moves that would show some lack of strategic sense but at worst she is not going to mess things up
On March 24 2016 10:09 xDaunt wrote: [quote] In fairness, there never has been much enthusiasm for Hillary, which is her biggest liability.
she's been in government for too long. back in the day she was able to rally the troops well, but the new generation don't have a clue what she went through in the 90's.
I think you have it backwards. People know exactly "what she went through in the 90s." It's not an accident that everyone thinks that she is a liar and political hack.
eh i was talking about liberal younglings. they would not take the gop view of that period.
that bernie is tapping into rather than help defuse this popular but ill founded image of hillary is deeply unfortunate
Liberal younglings think that she's a liar too. It's not just the "right wing conspiracy" that thinks so.
this is because they are morons
Are you really going to hold her up as a paragon of truth and virtue? Good fucking luck with that. Honesty and consistency are not Hillary's strengths. I find it hilarious that you're arguing otherwise.
uh no it is okay to lie in politics. the younglings just vastly overvalue honesty and all that. you need to get shit done not choose a priest
hillary is dedicated to the policy work and has only lied to do some politics. this is rly good
So you called people morons for thinking she's a liar and then said she's a liar.
???
no i called people morons for being influenced by the liar impression. it shouldnt matter that much.
there are some people who think the hillary lies are the wall street ties!!! variety. that is just not true. for the rest the above applies
I mean we can all read the quote chain where the only thing "this is" could be referring to is that people think she's a liar so IDK where you're going with this.
On March 24 2016 10:38 xDaunt wrote: [quote] I think you have it backwards. People know exactly "what she went through in the 90s." It's not an accident that everyone thinks that she is a liar and political hack.
eh i was talking about liberal younglings. they would not take the gop view of that period.
that bernie is tapping into rather than help defuse this popular but ill founded image of hillary is deeply unfortunate
Liberal younglings think that she's a liar too. It's not just the "right wing conspiracy" that thinks so.
this is because they are morons
Are you really going to hold her up as a paragon of truth and virtue? Good fucking luck with that. Honesty and consistency are not Hillary's strengths. I find it hilarious that you're arguing otherwise.
uh no it is okay to lie in politics. the younglings just vastly overvalue honesty and all that. you need to get shit done not choose a priest
hillary is dedicated to the policy work and has only lied to do some politics. this is rly good
What good policy work has she done? She was SoS during worst part of Obama's presidency foreign policy-wise.
she's active on many committees while a senator. her current platform is the best the progressive side has to offer on many issues. her work as sos was marred by adventurism in some critical junctures but we look forward not exclusively back in assessing future capacity as president.
bottom line she works hard, has sensibility for often complicated issues and is sincerely dedicated to pushing for progressive outcomes. many of obama's hanging policies need a detail focused follow through. she is really capable in this respect.
See, I read this as an admission of her executive incompetence. I have no doubt that she has worked her ass off wherever she has been, but results matter. And her results over the course of 25 years in the national spotlight are wanting to say the least. The only reason why she has gone as far as she has is her last name. I totally get that you want a competent technocrat to be the president, but she is not it.
i disagree having reviewed some of her armed forces committee work. she learns and is an arbitor of policy as they are presented by experts. many politicians dont even read that closely.
no doubt shes made some highly questionable tradeoff moves that would show some lack of strategic sense but at worst she is not going to mess things up
That doesn't even make any sense. You admit that she has made strategic errors, but you still think that she's not going to mess things up? Strategic errors of the sort that she has made demonstrate precisely the poor judgment that results in things getting messed up.
On March 24 2016 10:14 oneofthem wrote: [quote] she's been in government for too long. back in the day she was able to rally the troops well, but the new generation don't have a clue what she went through in the 90's.
I think you have it backwards. People know exactly "what she went through in the 90s." It's not an accident that everyone thinks that she is a liar and political hack.
eh i was talking about liberal younglings. they would not take the gop view of that period.
that bernie is tapping into rather than help defuse this popular but ill founded image of hillary is deeply unfortunate
Liberal younglings think that she's a liar too. It's not just the "right wing conspiracy" that thinks so.
this is because they are morons
Are you really going to hold her up as a paragon of truth and virtue? Good fucking luck with that. Honesty and consistency are not Hillary's strengths. I find it hilarious that you're arguing otherwise.
uh no it is okay to lie in politics. the younglings just vastly overvalue honesty and all that. you need to get shit done not choose a priest
hillary is dedicated to the policy work and has only lied to do some politics. this is rly good
What good policy work has she done? She was SoS during worst part of Obama's presidency foreign policy-wise.
she's active on many committees while a senator. her current platform is the best the progressive side has to offer on many issues. her work as sos was marred by adventurism in some critical junctures but we look forward not exclusively back in assessing future capacity as president.
bottom line she works hard, has sensibility for often complicated issues and is sincerely dedicated to pushing for progressive outcomes. many of obama's hanging policies need a detail focused follow through. she is really capable in this respect.
See, I read this as an admission of her executive incompetence. I have no doubt that she has worked her ass off wherever she has been, but results matter. And her results over the course of 25 years in the national spotlight are wanting to say the least. The only reason why she has gone as far as she has is her last name. I totally get that you want a competent technocrat to be the president, but she is not it.
Here's a fair assessment of her tenure as Secretary of State (here are a few other topics beyond that tenure that you can look into as well if you'd like (not holding my breath)). The idea that she's incompetent is hilariously wrong, and the result of (1) your ignorance of the issues which don't make the front page (yet still very much matter), (2) the misinformation (and simplistic analyses à la Krauthammer) in which you bathe and (3) the ideological lenses which prevent you from assessing her achievements objectively.
I think the article's title that I posted was misleading because yea he doesn't make that great a case for him actually winning. I though some of the lesser points he made were interesting though.
On March 24 2016 10:47 oneofthem wrote: [quote] eh i was talking about liberal younglings. they would not take the gop view of that period.
that bernie is tapping into rather than help defuse this popular but ill founded image of hillary is deeply unfortunate
Liberal younglings think that she's a liar too. It's not just the "right wing conspiracy" that thinks so.
this is because they are morons
Are you really going to hold her up as a paragon of truth and virtue? Good fucking luck with that. Honesty and consistency are not Hillary's strengths. I find it hilarious that you're arguing otherwise.
uh no it is okay to lie in politics. the younglings just vastly overvalue honesty and all that. you need to get shit done not choose a priest
hillary is dedicated to the policy work and has only lied to do some politics. this is rly good
What good policy work has she done? She was SoS during worst part of Obama's presidency foreign policy-wise.
she's active on many committees while a senator. her current platform is the best the progressive side has to offer on many issues. her work as sos was marred by adventurism in some critical junctures but we look forward not exclusively back in assessing future capacity as president.
bottom line she works hard, has sensibility for often complicated issues and is sincerely dedicated to pushing for progressive outcomes. many of obama's hanging policies need a detail focused follow through. she is really capable in this respect.
See, I read this as an admission of her executive incompetence. I have no doubt that she has worked her ass off wherever she has been, but results matter. And her results over the course of 25 years in the national spotlight are wanting to say the least. The only reason why she has gone as far as she has is her last name. I totally get that you want a competent technocrat to be the president, but she is not it.
i disagree having reviewed some of her armed forces committee work. she learns and is an arbitor of policy as they are presented by experts. many politicians dont even read that closely.
no doubt shes made some highly questionable tradeoff moves that would show some lack of strategic sense but at worst she is not going to mess things up
That doesn't even make any sense. You admit that she has made strategic errors, but you still think that she's not going to mess things up? Strategic errors of the sort that she has made demonstrate precisely the poor judgment that results in things getting messed up.
I think the way I'd put it is that Hillary is weak and going to slowly make things worse, but the Republican party is going to make things a lot worse very quickly. Sanders is better than Hillary though not great, and while I wish I had a reason to like Hillary, the more I listen to her the less I think that she has a good vision for the future. Her supporters in here are remarkably capable of finding fault in others yet giving her infinite leeway on her inadequacies, for whatever reason.
Also, though I hate to be explicitly partisan, the Republican Congress right now has ensured that I'm going to vote party-line Democrat. Even though I might like some of the R candidates more, I can't support the party's overall obstructionism that they will force said candidate to uphold. Not in the Congressional elections, and not in the presidency.
On March 24 2016 11:14 Liquid`Drone wrote: Soap, unless we taxed 100% of the profit, which would remove any private incentive, we could not get the same from taxation as we could get from profit? Am I missing something?
Obviously nationalization of natural resources coupled with a corrupt and incompetent government doesn't yield good results.. In Norway however, government is quite transparent and very competent. (Not necessarily all agencies.. But the oil and energy sector has been exemplary, and there is no way 'the people' as a whole would have benefited equally if our offshore platforms and hydro dams were private. (hydro has seen some privatization in the last decade, which hasn't yielded good results at all. ) There are also examples of the opposite - our telecommunications used to be a state-run monopoly, and there increased competitions was purely positive, and until 1991 we only had one state-owned broadcasting channel - opening that up for commercial actors was also a definite success..
On March 24 2016 10:14 oneofthem wrote: [quote] she's been in government for too long. back in the day she was able to rally the troops well, but the new generation don't have a clue what she went through in the 90's.
I think you have it backwards. People know exactly "what she went through in the 90s." It's not an accident that everyone thinks that she is a liar and political hack.
eh i was talking about liberal younglings. they would not take the gop view of that period.
that bernie is tapping into rather than help defuse this popular but ill founded image of hillary is deeply unfortunate
Liberal younglings think that she's a liar too. It's not just the "right wing conspiracy" that thinks so.
this is because they are morons
Are you really going to hold her up as a paragon of truth and virtue? Good fucking luck with that. Honesty and consistency are not Hillary's strengths. I find it hilarious that you're arguing otherwise.
uh no it is okay to lie in politics. the younglings just vastly overvalue honesty and all that. you need to get shit done not choose a priest
hillary is dedicated to the policy work and has only lied to do some politics. this is rly good
So you called people morons for thinking she's a liar and then said she's a liar.
???
no i called people morons for being influenced by the liar impression. it shouldnt matter that much.
there are some people who think the hillary lies are the wall street ties!!! variety. that is just not true. for the rest the above applies
I mean we can all read the quote chain where the only thing "this is" could be referring to is that people think she's a liar so IDK where you're going with this.
the basic tone of liar is deeper than someone who just lied. look if you want a clarification ive given it and the rest is just either careless on my part or misreading on yours
On March 24 2016 10:47 oneofthem wrote: [quote] eh i was talking about liberal younglings. they would not take the gop view of that period.
that bernie is tapping into rather than help defuse this popular but ill founded image of hillary is deeply unfortunate
Liberal younglings think that she's a liar too. It's not just the "right wing conspiracy" that thinks so.
this is because they are morons
Are you really going to hold her up as a paragon of truth and virtue? Good fucking luck with that. Honesty and consistency are not Hillary's strengths. I find it hilarious that you're arguing otherwise.
uh no it is okay to lie in politics. the younglings just vastly overvalue honesty and all that. you need to get shit done not choose a priest
hillary is dedicated to the policy work and has only lied to do some politics. this is rly good
What good policy work has she done? She was SoS during worst part of Obama's presidency foreign policy-wise.
she's active on many committees while a senator. her current platform is the best the progressive side has to offer on many issues. her work as sos was marred by adventurism in some critical junctures but we look forward not exclusively back in assessing future capacity as president.
bottom line she works hard, has sensibility for often complicated issues and is sincerely dedicated to pushing for progressive outcomes. many of obama's hanging policies need a detail focused follow through. she is really capable in this respect.
See, I read this as an admission of her executive incompetence. I have no doubt that she has worked her ass off wherever she has been, but results matter. And her results over the course of 25 years in the national spotlight are wanting to say the least. The only reason why she has gone as far as she has is her last name. I totally get that you want a competent technocrat to be the president, but she is not it.
i disagree having reviewed some of her armed forces committee work. she learns and is an arbitor of policy as they are presented by experts. many politicians dont even read that closely.
no doubt shes made some highly questionable tradeoff moves that would show some lack of strategic sense but at worst she is not going to mess things up
That doesn't even make any sense. You admit that she has made strategic errors, but you still think that she's not going to mess things up? Strategic errors of the sort that she has made demonstrate precisely the poor judgment that results in things getting messed up.
everyone makes mistakes. hillary makes less mistakes and learns from them. that is good for a politician.
i would fault her for valuing short term gestures from fundamentally antagonistic states, lack of appreciation for downside risk of instability. but i also see adjustment as mistakes are made. e.g. tougher on putin after betrayal, more appreciation for having to back up threats. these display lessons learned
On March 24 2016 11:03 xDaunt wrote: [quote] Liberal younglings think that she's a liar too. It's not just the "right wing conspiracy" that thinks so.
this is because they are morons
Are you really going to hold her up as a paragon of truth and virtue? Good fucking luck with that. Honesty and consistency are not Hillary's strengths. I find it hilarious that you're arguing otherwise.
uh no it is okay to lie in politics. the younglings just vastly overvalue honesty and all that. you need to get shit done not choose a priest
hillary is dedicated to the policy work and has only lied to do some politics. this is rly good
What good policy work has she done? She was SoS during worst part of Obama's presidency foreign policy-wise.
she's active on many committees while a senator. her current platform is the best the progressive side has to offer on many issues. her work as sos was marred by adventurism in some critical junctures but we look forward not exclusively back in assessing future capacity as president.
bottom line she works hard, has sensibility for often complicated issues and is sincerely dedicated to pushing for progressive outcomes. many of obama's hanging policies need a detail focused follow through. she is really capable in this respect.
See, I read this as an admission of her executive incompetence. I have no doubt that she has worked her ass off wherever she has been, but results matter. And her results over the course of 25 years in the national spotlight are wanting to say the least. The only reason why she has gone as far as she has is her last name. I totally get that you want a competent technocrat to be the president, but she is not it.
i disagree having reviewed some of her armed forces committee work. she learns and is an arbitor of policy as they are presented by experts. many politicians dont even read that closely.
no doubt shes made some highly questionable tradeoff moves that would show some lack of strategic sense but at worst she is not going to mess things up
That doesn't even make any sense. You admit that she has made strategic errors, but you still think that she's not going to mess things up? Strategic errors of the sort that she has made demonstrate precisely the poor judgment that results in things getting messed up.
I think the way I'd put it is that Hillary is weak and going to slowly make things worse, but the Republican party is going to make things a lot worse very quickly. Sanders is better than Hillary though not great, and while I wish I had a reason to like Hillary, the more I listen to her the less I think that she has a good vision for the future. Her supporters in here are remarkably capable of finding fault in others yet giving her infinite leeway on her inadequacies, for whatever reason.
That's totally fair. I don't mind if people have different preferences for the candidates as a consequence of the candidates' differing platforms. What I am taking issue with is oneofthem's surprisingly blind faith in Hillary's competence when there really isn't much to speak for it, and plenty that speaks against it. Only the most partisan hacks dare argue that Obama had a good foreign policy record during his first term, and much of what happened then is looking progressively worse as time goes on. As secretary of state, it is clear that Hillary played a large role in that first term's foreign policy.
I'm pretty happy she prevented Gaddafi from straight up murdering a city full of rebels
She did a lot to repair our relationships with a lot of allies after Bush mucked everything up. Put pressure on African nations to treat LGBT individuals better. Arms reduction with Russia. etc.
She wasn't a legendary SoS or anything, but she did a solid job
shes good at dealing with friendly states and gained experience with guys like putin. it is pretty normal really. a new democrat opens shop friendly, gets tested, then gets more tough . see jfk and the soviets
she was certainly naive taking russian gestures like their sanction pressure on iran seriously. like come on lol
Also that article has a few glaring errors-- Bernie could easily have begun advertising whenever, he's far from limited by budget. Every single tactic Hillary used he could have too. If I had to redline that in full it would take me a whole pack of pens.
On March 24 2016 12:22 ticklishmusic wrote: Also that article has a few glaring errors-- Bernie could easily have begun advertising whenever, he's far from limited by budget. Every single tactic Hillary used he could have too. If I had to redline that in full it would take me a whole pack of pens.
You don't think it's odd that they counted a grand total of 62 votes today? Does no one find that strange?
So I'm watching Trump's AIPAC speech. It's the first real policy speech that he has given using a teleprompter. He's far better informed and knowledgeable policy-wise than I thought. I'm pretty sure that several months of this Trump appearing in public will alter how the public perceives him.
On March 24 2016 13:10 On_Slaught wrote: You seriously think Trump wrote the policy aspects of that speech? Pretty sure I heard that Sessions worked on it.
I just particularly liked how his ad libs were to call himself great and how he got laughed at for saying he knows the Iran deal better than anyone in a room full of people who probably knew it better than him.
Seeing a deeper side of his policy perspectives is not what I got out of that for sure.
BTW the only way to watch that video is at 2x speed, you wont regret it.
On March 24 2016 13:10 On_Slaught wrote: You seriously think Trump wrote the policy aspects of that speech? Pretty sure I heard that Sessions worked on it.
Of course he didn't write it. No presidential candidate writes their own speeches. And every presidential candidate relies upon advisers for guidance in forming policy. The point is that we're starting to see some policy depth to Trump's campaign.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nRh1c2u.png)
