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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
February 10 2016 06:24 GMT
#57521
On February 10 2016 15:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
Here's what should scare Democratic voters supporting Hillary thinking she's the better candidate in the general.

Hillary may end up with less votes than Donald Trump in NH

92% reporting puts Hillary at 88k votes, Trump at 92k.

Doubt it'll make a difference because no one really talks about it that way. I certainly didn't think of it.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
JW_DTLA
Profile Joined December 2015
242 Posts
February 10 2016 06:44 GMT
#57522
On February 10 2016 14:51 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2016 14:38 JW_DTLA wrote:
On February 10 2016 13:41 ErectedZenith wrote:
On February 10 2016 13:34 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On February 10 2016 13:28 ErectedZenith wrote:
On February 10 2016 11:44 Falling wrote:
On February 10 2016 11:41 ErectedZenith wrote:
In the end, it will be Bernie Sanders vs The Don for the presidential seat.

The primary vision in Hillary's campaign is that she is a woman, you can fool girls who can't think for themselves but smart people will say "So what?".

Bernie Sanders' vision is to turn USA into a communism country. Donny's vision is to push capitalism to its apex.

Now it just depends on what Americans wants of their nation.


Next comes the proletariat revolution, I guess?
I really don't think what he is advocating is communist, as such. I also rarely hear what Donny's vision actually beyond it will be fantastic and I'll hire guys, you'll never heard of before. They'll be great, way better than the current guys.


Dude, Donny literally wrote a book on his plans as president....

I can't say the same for Mr Burn.


Trump changes positions more often than Clinton. Dude has no clue how to keep anything consistent and you can't trust anything he says.


Have you listened to his interview with Oprah 15 years ago?

His POV literally is the same.

Quit it.


Abortion. The guy totally flipped within the last two years.

You can't run a Republican presidential campaign without saying you're "pro-life" when asked; suffice it to say that's not a big issue for his campaign, and it has little risk of translating into policy with Roe v. Wade.


Disagree entirely. Abortion is a huge issue in this campaign. 5? Supreme Court justices are over 70. Every Republican led state in the union has enacted some kind of abortion restriction. The Republican congress has passed anti-abortion bills. How often did Rubio say he was Pro-Life? How much of a big deal was it to Kasich when he was Governor? Abortion is on the ballot in 2016.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
February 10 2016 06:59 GMT
#57523
On February 10 2016 15:44 JW_DTLA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2016 14:51 oBlade wrote:
On February 10 2016 14:38 JW_DTLA wrote:
On February 10 2016 13:41 ErectedZenith wrote:
On February 10 2016 13:34 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On February 10 2016 13:28 ErectedZenith wrote:
On February 10 2016 11:44 Falling wrote:
On February 10 2016 11:41 ErectedZenith wrote:
In the end, it will be Bernie Sanders vs The Don for the presidential seat.

The primary vision in Hillary's campaign is that she is a woman, you can fool girls who can't think for themselves but smart people will say "So what?".

Bernie Sanders' vision is to turn USA into a communism country. Donny's vision is to push capitalism to its apex.

Now it just depends on what Americans wants of their nation.


Next comes the proletariat revolution, I guess?
I really don't think what he is advocating is communist, as such. I also rarely hear what Donny's vision actually beyond it will be fantastic and I'll hire guys, you'll never heard of before. They'll be great, way better than the current guys.


Dude, Donny literally wrote a book on his plans as president....

I can't say the same for Mr Burn.


Trump changes positions more often than Clinton. Dude has no clue how to keep anything consistent and you can't trust anything he says.


Have you listened to his interview with Oprah 15 years ago?

His POV literally is the same.

Quit it.


Abortion. The guy totally flipped within the last two years.

You can't run a Republican presidential campaign without saying you're "pro-life" when asked; suffice it to say that's not a big issue for his campaign, and it has little risk of translating into policy with Roe v. Wade.


Disagree entirely. Abortion is a huge issue in this campaign. 5? Supreme Court justices are over 70. Every Republican led state in the union has enacted some kind of abortion restriction. The Republican congress has passed anti-abortion bills. How often did Rubio say he was Pro-Life? How much of a big deal was it to Kasich when he was Governor? Abortion is on the ballot in 2016.


Abortion is barely an issue in the world anymore. If you look overseas, its basically a debate between 6 and 10 weeks being the cutoff. If you look at science, that will be 1 day soon enough.
Freeeeeeedom
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
February 10 2016 07:30 GMT
#57524
On February 10 2016 15:59 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2016 15:44 JW_DTLA wrote:
On February 10 2016 14:51 oBlade wrote:
On February 10 2016 14:38 JW_DTLA wrote:
On February 10 2016 13:41 ErectedZenith wrote:
On February 10 2016 13:34 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On February 10 2016 13:28 ErectedZenith wrote:
On February 10 2016 11:44 Falling wrote:
On February 10 2016 11:41 ErectedZenith wrote:
In the end, it will be Bernie Sanders vs The Don for the presidential seat.

The primary vision in Hillary's campaign is that she is a woman, you can fool girls who can't think for themselves but smart people will say "So what?".

Bernie Sanders' vision is to turn USA into a communism country. Donny's vision is to push capitalism to its apex.

Now it just depends on what Americans wants of their nation.


Next comes the proletariat revolution, I guess?
I really don't think what he is advocating is communist, as such. I also rarely hear what Donny's vision actually beyond it will be fantastic and I'll hire guys, you'll never heard of before. They'll be great, way better than the current guys.


Dude, Donny literally wrote a book on his plans as president....

I can't say the same for Mr Burn.


Trump changes positions more often than Clinton. Dude has no clue how to keep anything consistent and you can't trust anything he says.


Have you listened to his interview with Oprah 15 years ago?

His POV literally is the same.

Quit it.


Abortion. The guy totally flipped within the last two years.

You can't run a Republican presidential campaign without saying you're "pro-life" when asked; suffice it to say that's not a big issue for his campaign, and it has little risk of translating into policy with Roe v. Wade.


Disagree entirely. Abortion is a huge issue in this campaign. 5? Supreme Court justices are over 70. Every Republican led state in the union has enacted some kind of abortion restriction. The Republican congress has passed anti-abortion bills. How often did Rubio say he was Pro-Life? How much of a big deal was it to Kasich when he was Governor? Abortion is on the ballot in 2016.


Abortion is barely an issue in the world anymore. If you look overseas, its basically a debate between 6 and 10 weeks being the cutoff. If you look at science, that will be 1 day soon enough.

Basically this. Plus, even if a republican president is elected, and he stacks the Supreme Court with "conservative justices," I highly doubt that they'd overturn Roe v. Wade and eliminate abortions entirely.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
February 10 2016 07:35 GMT
#57525
On February 10 2016 12:34 oneofthem wrote:
bernie winning leading to a trump presidency would be hilarious


Bernie v Trump means that Bloomberg runs and makes history as third party president obvs
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6284 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-10 08:06:55
February 10 2016 07:58 GMT
#57526
When Trump came in second in Iowa, CNN was gloating the entire morning and afternoon. I turn it on this morning and they weren't even talking about the primaries lol.

"If only Kircheis were here" - Everyone
JW_DTLA
Profile Joined December 2015
242 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-10 08:01:40
February 10 2016 07:59 GMT
#57527
On February 10 2016 16:30 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2016 15:59 cLutZ wrote:
On February 10 2016 15:44 JW_DTLA wrote:
On February 10 2016 14:51 oBlade wrote:
On February 10 2016 14:38 JW_DTLA wrote:
On February 10 2016 13:41 ErectedZenith wrote:
On February 10 2016 13:34 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On February 10 2016 13:28 ErectedZenith wrote:
On February 10 2016 11:44 Falling wrote:
On February 10 2016 11:41 ErectedZenith wrote:
In the end, it will be Bernie Sanders vs The Don for the presidential seat.

The primary vision in Hillary's campaign is that she is a woman, you can fool girls who can't think for themselves but smart people will say "So what?".

Bernie Sanders' vision is to turn USA into a communism country. Donny's vision is to push capitalism to its apex.

Now it just depends on what Americans wants of their nation.


Next comes the proletariat revolution, I guess?
I really don't think what he is advocating is communist, as such. I also rarely hear what Donny's vision actually beyond it will be fantastic and I'll hire guys, you'll never heard of before. They'll be great, way better than the current guys.


Dude, Donny literally wrote a book on his plans as president....

I can't say the same for Mr Burn.


Trump changes positions more often than Clinton. Dude has no clue how to keep anything consistent and you can't trust anything he says.


Have you listened to his interview with Oprah 15 years ago?

His POV literally is the same.

Quit it.


Abortion. The guy totally flipped within the last two years.

You can't run a Republican presidential campaign without saying you're "pro-life" when asked; suffice it to say that's not a big issue for his campaign, and it has little risk of translating into policy with Roe v. Wade.


Disagree entirely. Abortion is a huge issue in this campaign. 5? Supreme Court justices are over 70. Every Republican led state in the union has enacted some kind of abortion restriction. The Republican congress has passed anti-abortion bills. How often did Rubio say he was Pro-Life? How much of a big deal was it to Kasich when he was Governor? Abortion is on the ballot in 2016.


Abortion is barely an issue in the world anymore. If you look overseas, its basically a debate between 6 and 10 weeks being the cutoff. If you look at science, that will be 1 day soon enough.

Basically this. Plus, even if a republican president is elected, and he stacks the Supreme Court with "conservative justices," I highly doubt that they'd overturn Roe v. Wade and eliminate abortions entirely.


14 of 15 of the Republican presidential candidates have statements purporting to do exactly this. I haven't found them all, but just give these guys time. This is what they are running on. Bush2 ran on this. Alito certainly will vote to overturn. Maybe Roberts won't, but the next two justices won't be chiefs. You can try to play this down, but realize the Republicans you vote for absolutely do not play this down at all. Keep your eyes open.

"That leaves us with this: 14 of the 15 remaining Republican candidates want to overturn Roe v. Wade, and 7 out of the 15 would ban abortion with no exceptions for rape and incest."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2015/10/26/on-abortion-the-gop-presidential-candidates-are-even-more-extreme-than-their-constituents/

Rubio
http://www.1380kcim.com/news/2015/rubio-says-roe-vs-wade-needs-to-be-overturned/


Carson
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ilyashapiro/2015/10/28/ben-carson-overturn-roe-v-wade-abortion/#689f6d2b4511

Trump
http://www.lifenews.com/2015/12/02/donald-trump-de-fund-planned-parenthood-and-look-carefully-at-overturning-roe-v-wade/

Ted Cruz
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/ted-cruz-we-can-absolutely-outlaw-abortion-without-overturning-roe
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6284 Posts
February 10 2016 08:14 GMT
#57528
How does this even make sense?

[image loading]
"If only Kircheis were here" - Everyone
Silvanel
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Poland4726 Posts
February 10 2016 08:31 GMT
#57529
WaPo main page says 13-9 in delgates right now. Dunno whats that about.
Pathetic Greta hater.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23209 Posts
February 10 2016 08:36 GMT
#57530
On February 10 2016 17:14 zeo wrote:
How does this even make sense?

[image loading]


You know how Bernie always says the game is rigged?

[image loading]


There have been 67 delegates projected to be alotted according to the voters.

Bernie has won ~44 of those 67 or ~65%

But we have super delegates which are a fail-safe to prevent the will of the people if they see fit.

Hillary has gotten over 400 of them to pledge toward her (though they are not obligated to uphold that pledge).
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6205 Posts
February 10 2016 08:40 GMT
#57531
The system is so opaque it hardly makes any sense to me.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11498 Posts
February 10 2016 09:34 GMT
#57532
On February 10 2016 17:36 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2016 17:14 zeo wrote:
How does this even make sense?

[image loading]


You know how Bernie always says the game is rigged?

[image loading]


There have been 67 delegates projected to be alotted according to the voters.

Bernie has won ~44 of those 67 or ~65%

But we have super delegates which are a fail-safe to prevent the will of the people if they see fit.

Hillary has gotten over 400 of them to pledge toward her (though they are not obligated to uphold that pledge).


I am getting more and more confused regarding this system. Why are there 400 unelected delegates? American politics are really really weird.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23209 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-10 09:40:23
February 10 2016 09:36 GMT
#57533
On February 10 2016 17:40 RvB wrote:
The system is so opaque it hardly makes any sense to me.


It's basically like when one lets a young child play with a console controller that's unplugged.

We're almost old enough to realize we're not controlling the player on the screen at all, let alone picking the game we're playing.

Hillary's campaign boils down to playing the same game Kasich same game different character.

Trump is changing the game.

Bernie is plugging in the controller on a multi-system emulator.

The rest are basically even younger children throwing shit at the screen until they get to hold the controller instead.

The system is designed to keep us entertained with a shiny loading screen and demo and at all cost prevent us from pressing start.

"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23209 Posts
February 10 2016 09:38 GMT
#57534
On February 10 2016 18:34 Simberto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2016 17:36 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 10 2016 17:14 zeo wrote:
How does this even make sense?

[image loading]


You know how Bernie always says the game is rigged?

[image loading]


There have been 67 delegates projected to be alotted according to the voters.

Bernie has won ~44 of those 67 or ~65%

But we have super delegates which are a fail-safe to prevent the will of the people if they see fit.

Hillary has gotten over 400 of them to pledge toward her (though they are not obligated to uphold that pledge).


I am getting more and more confused regarding this system. Why are there 400 unelected delegates? American politics are really really weird.


~700 actually.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6284 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-10 09:49:26
February 10 2016 09:49 GMT
#57535
On February 10 2016 18:34 Simberto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2016 17:36 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 10 2016 17:14 zeo wrote:
How does this even make sense?

[image loading]


You know how Bernie always says the game is rigged?

[image loading]


There have been 67 delegates projected to be alotted according to the voters.

Bernie has won ~44 of those 67 or ~65%

But we have super delegates which are a fail-safe to prevent the will of the people if they see fit.

Hillary has gotten over 400 of them to pledge toward her (though they are not obligated to uphold that pledge).


I am getting more and more confused regarding this system. Why are there 400 unelected delegates? American politics are really really weird.

During the 80's Democrat voters nominated people that were too left wing/hippie and got absolutely dominated in those elections. So their establishment came up with the super-delegate system to make sure they can have an electable candidate instead of a hippie/communist. I still think that this can backfire bigtime if Sanders wins every state but Hillary gets the nomination, people are going to be angry.

At least thats the way I see it, there is nothing democratic about these primaries.
"If only Kircheis were here" - Everyone
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
February 10 2016 10:05 GMT
#57536
On February 10 2016 18:34 Simberto wrote:
I am getting more and more confused regarding this system. Why are there 400 unelected delegates? American politics are really really weird.


In fairness, most democracies are effectively JUST those 400. The "party grandees decide" technique is very widespread. The US thing is relatively unusual in allowing the masses this level of participation, although lately it has been gradually catching on elsewhere.

It's a weird system though, no disagreement. The Constitutional framers would be horrified by how irrational the whole thing is.

A much better system would be some kind of instant runoff voting system that happens everywhere at the same time.
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8501 Posts
February 10 2016 10:09 GMT
#57537
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


that's basically what it boils down to boys lol. the more the game is being rigged for hillary, the more my bern gets lit up.

though my inner machiavelli just won't shush.
Wegandi
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2455 Posts
February 10 2016 10:23 GMT
#57538
On February 10 2016 12:55 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2016 12:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
On February 10 2016 12:43 jcarlsoniv wrote:
On February 10 2016 12:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
On February 10 2016 12:32 jcarlsoniv wrote:
On February 10 2016 12:23 ticklishmusic wrote:
On February 10 2016 12:19 xDaunt wrote:
On February 10 2016 11:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
I hate to disrupt the circlejerk, but you so realize that Hillary is leading Nevada and South Carolina by 20 point margins... you can jigger that with turnout (which has been underestimated) and other things, but I'll take a month ban if Bernie wins both of them.

Bernie needs to show that he can win some other states before I'd put money on him winning the nomination. And he is hilariously unelectable at a national level.


One of our rare moments of agreement outside sports.

It's okay, we can be friends until the end of election season. Then we can go back to half-jokingly hostile.

To everyone else: So how about a banbet? 1 month NV + SC if Hillary/Sanders win both (you know what I mean), if there's a split we'll sigbet-- I tell you something to add to yours, you add to mine for a month.


Hmmmmm sure I'll take that.

Worst case, a 1 month break from posting. I could probably do with that anyway ^.^


someone willing to put something on the line (btw, how much money did you lose on the Iowa bet GH?)

farva is excepted ofc, congrats on his engagement/relationship/life sentence


I'll predict Sanders takes NV and Clinton keeps SC.


i predict hillary to take both, which is why i'm willing to risk a monthlong bet on that

sigbet for the split then?


Yup!

Show nested quote +
On February 10 2016 12:49 ticklishmusic wrote:
On February 10 2016 12:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 10 2016 12:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
On February 10 2016 12:32 jcarlsoniv wrote:
On February 10 2016 12:23 ticklishmusic wrote:
On February 10 2016 12:19 xDaunt wrote:
On February 10 2016 11:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
I hate to disrupt the circlejerk, but you so realize that Hillary is leading Nevada and South Carolina by 20 point margins... you can jigger that with turnout (which has been underestimated) and other things, but I'll take a month ban if Bernie wins both of them.

Bernie needs to show that he can win some other states before I'd put money on him winning the nomination. And he is hilariously unelectable at a national level.


One of our rare moments of agreement outside sports.

It's okay, we can be friends until the end of election season. Then we can go back to half-jokingly hostile.

To everyone else: So how about a banbet? 1 month NV + SC if Hillary/Sanders win both (you know what I mean), if there's a split we'll sigbet-- I tell you something to add to yours, you add to mine for a month.


Hmmmmm sure I'll take that.

Worst case, a 1 month break from posting. I could probably do with that anyway ^.^


someone willing to put something on the line (btw, how much money did you lose on the Iowa bet GH?)

farva is excepted ofc, congrats on his engagement/relationship/life sentence


Ha, I'm still happy to bet on the nomination if this blowout has given you knew hope? Nothing on Iowa, wouldn't want to remind people of that shadiness either if I was a Hillary supporter...

Bernie's margin of victory is bigger than Kasich's vote total haha.


its not giving me hope, i'm just going based on what i see. the only adjustment i've made is that polls underestimate bernie's turnout.

i'm trying to avoid arguing about that kind of stuff, but look, let's put it this way. both sides have supporters who are, to put it gently, overzealous. hillary has them and bernie has them. they both do and say things that arent proper. i wont cite any specific examples.


Bernie was in a similar position on Iowa one month beforehand. If things continue the way they are now, with more national exposure, and with Clinton campaign handling things questionably, I think there's a possibility (yes, very small) he could win both.

It's a weird political climate. Who knows! \o/


If Bernie wins expect the RNC to plaster his praise of Cuba and the USSR everywhere. The only way Bernie wins is if Trump wins and more than half the country stays home because they abhor both. Or, I could be wrong, and there is a silent socialist majority and in that case, we're all fucked. :p
Thank you bureaucrats for all your hard work, your commitment to public service and public good is essential to the lives of so many. Also, for Pete's sake can we please get some gun control already, no need for hand guns and assault rifles for the public
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
February 10 2016 10:26 GMT
#57539
On February 10 2016 19:05 Yoav wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2016 18:34 Simberto wrote:
I am getting more and more confused regarding this system. Why are there 400 unelected delegates? American politics are really really weird.


In fairness, most democracies are effectively JUST those 400. The "party grandees decide" technique is very widespread. The US thing is relatively unusual in allowing the masses this level of participation, although lately it has been gradually catching on elsewhere.

It's a weird system though, no disagreement. The Constitutional framers would be horrified by how irrational the whole thing is.

A much better system would be some kind of instant runoff voting system that happens everywhere at the same time.


It's really hard to compare the US system to most of the EU ones, because only a very few countries have this impenetrable barrier of just two parties. So if the "establishment" of a dominant party chooses candidates without public support, the party just fades and another party gets the votes. In the US as far as I understand, a success of a "3rd party" candidate would has rainbow-vomitting unicorn probability, so the matters internal to those parties matter much more.
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
DickMcFanny
Profile Blog Joined September 2015
Ireland1076 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-10 10:33:44
February 10 2016 10:28 GMT
#57540
Either you're being sarcastic or you have no idea what socialism entails.

As someone who lives in a capitalist hellhole that sacrificed infrastructure, education and decent medical system to give tax breaks to Google and Apple, I get to see the American system at work, and I'm not impressed.
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