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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

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Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15663 Posts
February 04 2016 22:07 GMT
#56881
On February 05 2016 06:14 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2016 06:04 RvB wrote:
On February 05 2016 05:46 farvacola wrote:
On February 05 2016 04:39 kwizach wrote:
farva, according to you who between Sanders and Hillary would have the best shot against the Republican nominee, whomever he ends up being? Do you see Sanders winning against Marco Rubio, for example?

I sincerely think that 2016 is going to have some pretty interesting turnout numbers in terms of demographics that are going to categorically reject the Republican platform regardless of who the candidate is. As darth and jcarl said, Rubio would definitely be Sanders' toughest matchup, but I also think that Sanders has the unique ability to tap into some mid-line, libertarian minded moderates who will pretty readily buy into the "Rubio is a slick Washington insider" schtick that Sanders can play because of his pretty outstanding ideological track record. Now that Iowa has shaken off some of the "Sanders doesn't have a chance in hell" dust, I think folks will begin to see that Sanders has a pretty good hand ti play against every Republican candidate.

What demographic do you expect will turn out for Sanders or Clinton? I know Sanders is relatively popular with young people but that's about it. They're not Obama who can fire up the black populace. I think only Rubio can do something similar with hispanics givrn his background and the fact that a lot of them are conservative on issues like abortion as well like the republicans.
I also don't see how a libertarian can vote for Sanders. Yes he js anti establishment but he's also obviously for a bigger government and I don't think any libertarian is for that.

I'll tell you one thing: hispanics are just as likely to not vote for another hispanic as they are likely to vote for another hispanic, particularly when Cubans are involved. Take this from the son of a naturalized citizen from Mexico.


As a Peruvian, this is spot on. There is ZERO sense of "oneness" among South America. Someone being Cuban may actually be worse than just being your typical white dude to a lot of people. There is some pretty insane levels of racism among South Americans towards each other and black people. The one thing Rubio and Cruz have going for them is the fact that they both have really light skin. Lots of South Americans like to pretend they are white and that it is OTHER people who are the darker less thans. My father sees Mexicans as some kinda sub-human kinda deal that just create a bad name for other South Americans. Obviously I do not share his views. But such distinctions between the various south american countries are very common. Cuban is not exactly high on the list. And even if it was, a Mexican does not identify with Cubans or Peruvians or Chileans or anything. And while South America tends to be strongly Catholic, it is rarely in some insanely devout way.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
February 04 2016 22:35 GMT
#56882
On February 05 2016 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm just thankful that this group wasn't the group that had to get voting rights for black folks or women. "Listen, rich white men run the world , always have, always will. Fighting it is pointless"

It's so early to give up on radical change. Just so much defeatism it's sad.

Also Hillary charging a public college, she represented as a senator, $275k for a 30 min speech (even if it funneled into her foundation) is just not what we're looking for in a President.

And no, I wouldn't do that, and Bernie wouldn't either. Hillary should just run as the moderate centrist she is.


There are big differences between civil rights and revamping our healthcare system, so that's a very lazy comparison.

Hillary was paid 275K to speak at a school, she's clearly in the pocket of public education . Also, you do realize people get paid to do things, like if Beyonce gave a concert at a public university you bet she'd be making 6 figs.

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23172 Posts
February 04 2016 22:51 GMT
#56883
On February 05 2016 07:35 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2016 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm just thankful that this group wasn't the group that had to get voting rights for black folks or women. "Listen, rich white men run the world , always have, always will. Fighting it is pointless"

It's so early to give up on radical change. Just so much defeatism it's sad.

Also Hillary charging a public college, she represented as a senator, $275k for a 30 min speech (even if it funneled into her foundation) is just not what we're looking for in a President.

And no, I wouldn't do that, and Bernie wouldn't either. Hillary should just run as the moderate centrist she is.


There are big differences between civil rights and revamping our healthcare system, so that's a very lazy comparison.

Hillary was paid 275K to speak at a school, she's clearly in the pocket of public education . Also, you do realize people get paid to do things, like if Beyonce gave a concert at a public university you bet she'd be making 6 figs.



First the political revolution isn't about just "revamping our healthcare system", which strikes me as obvious.

It's not about just "getting paid", and I hold my potential president to a higher standard than Beyonce.

She should just run as the moderate she is so that explanations like you just gave don't come off so silly.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15663 Posts
February 04 2016 22:56 GMT
#56884
Running as a moderate, great way to lose a primary.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23172 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-04 23:30:40
February 04 2016 23:07 GMT
#56885
On February 05 2016 07:56 Mohdoo wrote:
Running as a moderate, great way to lose a primary.


Well to be fair she already is mostly running as a moderate (far more so before Bernie gained traction), it's more her supporters trying to sell her as a progressive since she's started to try to present herself as one.

She needs to make up her mind on whether she wants to collect money from these folks or not, trying to bury her fundraising into politically advantageous times just continues to fit the narrative.

NEW YORK -- Hillary Clinton has postponed another fundraiser with financial services executives amid heavy criticism from rival Bernie Sanders that she is too close to Wall Street.

Clinton will no longer attend an event in Boston scheduled for Friday that was to be hosted by Jonathan Lavine, managing director of Bain Capital affiliate Sankaty Advisors, sources close to the matter said.

The event has not been canceled but will now be held sometime after the New Hampshire primary, which takes place Feb. 9. It is the second such postponement in the last two weeks. The Clinton campaign last week said a New York City event that was set for Thursday with executives from investment management firm BlackRock would now be held Feb. 16th.

The postponements come after Vermont senator Sanders ripped Clinton last week for leaving Iowa to attend a fundraiser in Philadelphia with financial services executives that featured a live performance with Bon Jovi.


Source

Truth is she's dependent on these types of fundraisers in order to keep up with Bernie's fundraising (she raised ~$6,000,000 less than Bernie in January)
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 04 2016 23:47 GMT
#56886
i guess a lot of hipster cred in 'libertarian'. but anyway i dont see politics as only information just a way to think about the virtues or justification of good govt
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15663 Posts
February 04 2016 23:59 GMT
#56887
On February 05 2016 08:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2016 07:56 Mohdoo wrote:
Running as a moderate, great way to lose a primary.


Well to be fair she already is mostly running as a moderate (far more so before Bernie gained traction), it's more her supporters trying to sell her as a progressive since she's started to try to present herself as one.

She needs to make up her mind on whether she wants to collect money from these folks or not, trying to bury her fundraising into politically advantageous times just continues to fit the narrative.

Show nested quote +
NEW YORK -- Hillary Clinton has postponed another fundraiser with financial services executives amid heavy criticism from rival Bernie Sanders that she is too close to Wall Street.

Clinton will no longer attend an event in Boston scheduled for Friday that was to be hosted by Jonathan Lavine, managing director of Bain Capital affiliate Sankaty Advisors, sources close to the matter said.

The event has not been canceled but will now be held sometime after the New Hampshire primary, which takes place Feb. 9. It is the second such postponement in the last two weeks. The Clinton campaign last week said a New York City event that was set for Thursday with executives from investment management firm BlackRock would now be held Feb. 16th.

The postponements come after Vermont senator Sanders ripped Clinton last week for leaving Iowa to attend a fundraiser in Philadelphia with financial services executives that featured a live performance with Bon Jovi.


Source

Truth is she's dependent on these types of fundraisers in order to keep up with Bernie's fundraising (she raised ~$6,000,000 less than Bernie in January)


All Clinton needs to do is ride the socialist train as subtly as possible until the dirty south comes into play. She's playing a long game and isn't letting NH ruin the mood. Rubio is getting creamed early on, yet he is a clear frontrunner. It's just a sad reality of how diverse our country is.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23172 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-05 00:11:58
February 05 2016 00:10 GMT
#56888
On February 05 2016 08:59 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2016 08:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 05 2016 07:56 Mohdoo wrote:
Running as a moderate, great way to lose a primary.


Well to be fair she already is mostly running as a moderate (far more so before Bernie gained traction), it's more her supporters trying to sell her as a progressive since she's started to try to present herself as one.

She needs to make up her mind on whether she wants to collect money from these folks or not, trying to bury her fundraising into politically advantageous times just continues to fit the narrative.

NEW YORK -- Hillary Clinton has postponed another fundraiser with financial services executives amid heavy criticism from rival Bernie Sanders that she is too close to Wall Street.

Clinton will no longer attend an event in Boston scheduled for Friday that was to be hosted by Jonathan Lavine, managing director of Bain Capital affiliate Sankaty Advisors, sources close to the matter said.

The event has not been canceled but will now be held sometime after the New Hampshire primary, which takes place Feb. 9. It is the second such postponement in the last two weeks. The Clinton campaign last week said a New York City event that was set for Thursday with executives from investment management firm BlackRock would now be held Feb. 16th.

The postponements come after Vermont senator Sanders ripped Clinton last week for leaving Iowa to attend a fundraiser in Philadelphia with financial services executives that featured a live performance with Bon Jovi.


Source

Truth is she's dependent on these types of fundraisers in order to keep up with Bernie's fundraising (she raised ~$6,000,000 less than Bernie in January)


All Clinton needs to do is ride the socialist train as subtly as possible until the dirty south comes into play. She's playing a long game and isn't letting NH ruin the mood. Rubio is getting creamed early on, yet he is a clear frontrunner. It's just a sad reality of how diverse our country is.



Resentment is starting to build within Black, Hispanic, and Latino communities as a result of constantly being told in the media "Oh well Hillary's got their vote so ....". Hillary is likely to get surprised by Nevada results. They've been busting ass in SC but SC black folks support doesn't automatically carry over to all black people.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17971 Posts
February 05 2016 00:18 GMT
#56889
Black people un Nevada?
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8496 Posts
February 05 2016 00:21 GMT
#56890
"There has never been a more tainted victory in the Iowa caucuses,” a spokesman for Ben Carson’s campaign said on Tuesday. He was referring to what he called Ted Cruz’s “abject lies” and, particularly, to what appears to have been a concerted effort on the part of the Cruz campaign to persuade voters at caucuses that Carson had dropped out. Carson himself told Fox News that his wife had had to personally refute that rumor at one caucus site—and once she had, he said, he won there. “Isn’t this the exact kind of thing that the American people are tired of? Why would we want to continue that kind of, you know, shenanigans?” Donald Trump put the charge in his own terms in a tweet: “Ted Cruz didn’t win Iowa, he stole it. That is why all of the polls were so wrong and why he got far more votes than anticipated. Bad!”

. . .

Many politicians are shameless; what seems to set Cruz apart is his unhidden pride in the craft of the political slur, the artistry of nastiness. Even his opponents were impressed by his get-out-the-vote operation, but Cruz couldn’t stop himself from offering an additional factor: his persistent attacks on “New York values” had resonated, he told ABC News. “Everyone knows what New York values are,” he said. We do, in this town. Does anyone know what Ted Cruz’s values are?


The New Yorker
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
February 05 2016 00:23 GMT
#56891
On February 05 2016 07:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2016 07:35 ticklishmusic wrote:
On February 05 2016 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm just thankful that this group wasn't the group that had to get voting rights for black folks or women. "Listen, rich white men run the world , always have, always will. Fighting it is pointless"

It's so early to give up on radical change. Just so much defeatism it's sad.

Also Hillary charging a public college, she represented as a senator, $275k for a 30 min speech (even if it funneled into her foundation) is just not what we're looking for in a President.

And no, I wouldn't do that, and Bernie wouldn't either. Hillary should just run as the moderate centrist she is.


There are big differences between civil rights and revamping our healthcare system, so that's a very lazy comparison.

Hillary was paid 275K to speak at a school, she's clearly in the pocket of public education . Also, you do realize people get paid to do things, like if Beyonce gave a concert at a public university you bet she'd be making 6 figs.



First the political revolution isn't about just "revamping our healthcare system", which strikes me as obvious.

It's not about just "getting paid", and I hold my potential president to a higher standard than Beyonce.

She should just run as the moderate she is so that explanations like you just gave don't come off so silly.


I'm going to sound snooty and smug, but what separates me and you is I understand the difference between changing our healthcare system and civil rights. Without saying civil rights was easy or finishing the importance in any way, healthcare and a lot of what Bernie is proposing to tackle is far more challenging from a legislative and functional (I'll call it that) standpoint.

Then what is it about? What's wrong with getting paid. What differentiates a payment from the NY school system from one from some finance execs? I agree wholeheartedly that there is something wrong with our finance system as well as our campaign finance system, but when you throw around GS and investment firm like they're the chupacabra, it's not going to accomplish anything. Do you have any idea what Bain Capital or Blackrock even do?

I think the arguments over labels is patently ridiculous. Hillary made a great points yesterday about letting ideas stand for themselves.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
DickMcFanny
Profile Blog Joined September 2015
Ireland1076 Posts
February 05 2016 00:33 GMT
#56892
Does anyone have a link to this week's debate between Bernie and HRC? The one Rachel Maddow and that guy from Meet the Press moderated?
| (• ◡•)|╯ ╰(❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
February 05 2016 00:36 GMT
#56893
ticklish you're as blind about Hillary as GH is about Bernie. If I wasn't sick as a donkey I'd elaborate but reading both of your ridiculously biased comments annoys me to no end as a liberal.
Writer
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15663 Posts
February 05 2016 00:39 GMT
#56894
On February 05 2016 09:36 Souma wrote:
ticklish you're as blind about Hillary as GH is about Bernie. If I wasn't sick as a donkey I'd elaborate but reading both of your ridiculously biased comments annoys me to no end as a liberal.


So you thought you'd just take a moment to post saying that someone's posts are bad? How is that constructive?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23172 Posts
February 05 2016 00:40 GMT
#56895
On February 05 2016 09:18 Acrofales wrote:
Black people un Nevada?


No, her support with Latino/Hispanic isn't as deep as the media makes it sound.

On February 05 2016 09:23 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2016 07:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 05 2016 07:35 ticklishmusic wrote:
On February 05 2016 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm just thankful that this group wasn't the group that had to get voting rights for black folks or women. "Listen, rich white men run the world , always have, always will. Fighting it is pointless"

It's so early to give up on radical change. Just so much defeatism it's sad.

Also Hillary charging a public college, she represented as a senator, $275k for a 30 min speech (even if it funneled into her foundation) is just not what we're looking for in a President.

And no, I wouldn't do that, and Bernie wouldn't either. Hillary should just run as the moderate centrist she is.


There are big differences between civil rights and revamping our healthcare system, so that's a very lazy comparison.

Hillary was paid 275K to speak at a school, she's clearly in the pocket of public education . Also, you do realize people get paid to do things, like if Beyonce gave a concert at a public university you bet she'd be making 6 figs.



First the political revolution isn't about just "revamping our healthcare system", which strikes me as obvious.

It's not about just "getting paid", and I hold my potential president to a higher standard than Beyonce.

She should just run as the moderate she is so that explanations like you just gave don't come off so silly.


I'm going to sound snooty and smug, but what separates me and you is I understand the difference between changing our healthcare system and civil rights. Without saying civil rights was easy or finishing the importance in any way, healthcare and a lot of what Bernie is proposing to tackle is far more challenging from a legislative and functional (I'll call it that) standpoint.

Then what is it about? What's wrong with getting paid. What differentiates a payment from the NY school system from one from some finance execs? I agree wholeheartedly that there is something wrong with our finance system as well as our campaign finance system, but when you throw around GS and investment firm like they're the chupacabra, it's not going to accomplish anything. Do you have any idea what Bain Capital or Blackrock even do?

I think the arguments over labels is patently ridiculous. Hillary made a great points yesterday about letting ideas stand for themselves.


If you think Bernie's campaign is just about "changing our healthcare system" you either aren't paying attention or are being disingenuous.

When it comes to the school she should of done it for cost if that, I mean they helped elect her to the Senate think speaking to them shouldn't cost them so damn much.

As for being dependent on Wall street and big money firms (especially ones heavily invested in O&G) for fundraising, it should be obvious? Besides the access, that even Stephanopoulos admits it grants them that others simply don't get, her laughing off the idea of releasing transcripts further feeds into her honesty gap.

Hillary is the best the political establishment on both sides could come up with, but we don't want more establishment politics, even if it leans left rhetorically
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
February 05 2016 00:43 GMT
#56896
On February 05 2016 09:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2016 09:36 Souma wrote:
ticklish you're as blind about Hillary as GH is about Bernie. If I wasn't sick as a donkey I'd elaborate but reading both of your ridiculously biased comments annoys me to no end as a liberal.


So you thought you'd just take a moment to post saying that someone's posts are bad? How is that constructive?

Was I supposed to be constructive?
Writer
jcarlsoniv
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States27922 Posts
February 05 2016 00:47 GMT
#56897
On February 05 2016 09:33 DickMcFanny wrote:
Does anyone have a link to this week's debate between Bernie and HRC? The one Rachel Maddow and that guy from Meet the Press moderated?


I believe that's tonight? The CNN town hall was last night.

Looks like it starts here (I haven't watched it yet myself, if someone has a better link, I'd love it).

The debate will be streamed on MSNBC at 9 eastern.
Soniv ||| Soniv#1962 ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| The Big Golem ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? ||| Joe "Don't call me Daniel" "Soniv" "Daniel" Carlsberg LXIX ||| Paging Dr. John Shadow
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
February 05 2016 01:05 GMT
#56898
On February 05 2016 06:18 cLutZ wrote:
If your are talking about the gay-marriage + weed libertarians, perhaps some of them would shift to Sanders, we already have seen the gay-marriage schism form between those that were on the side of Marriage equality, but jumped off the train when the advocacy movement when it started to push for vendors to be compelled to serve weddings on threat of civil and criminal liabilities. Just as feminism has lost a bunch of libertarian-minded supporters as it went from a movement that went from tearing down barriers to erecting strange new ones.

Its a schism that happens whenever libertarians-of-convenience (who like the rhetorical stance of freedom) realize mere freedom no longer serves their ends. If I were to shoehorn this into "no true Scotsman" they would be the French or some other nation fighting with the Scots with the purpose of weakening the English, but then after the war is over they try to take over and tax all of Scotland's ports.

"Strange new ones" haha I love it.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
February 05 2016 02:02 GMT
#56899
On February 05 2016 09:43 Souma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2016 09:39 Mohdoo wrote:
On February 05 2016 09:36 Souma wrote:
ticklish you're as blind about Hillary as GH is about Bernie. If I wasn't sick as a donkey I'd elaborate but reading both of your ridiculously biased comments annoys me to no end as a liberal.


So you thought you'd just take a moment to post saying that someone's posts are bad? How is that constructive?

Was I supposed to be constructive?


you have that fancy fountain pen next to your name, people are expecting great things of you
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23172 Posts
February 05 2016 02:03 GMT
#56900
It's On!
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/how-watch-the-democratic-debate-msnbc
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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