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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1912

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 30 2015 12:37 GMT
#38221
I am pretty suspicious of a statement from a person the post cannot confirm exists and the original record is sealed. Its 3rd hand information without corroboration or support. And I have zero trust of any statement from the police union, as their solo purpose is to defend the interests of officers.

And I don't even know the logistics of severing your own spine. Like, how do you accomplish that in a moving van?
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10989 Posts
April 30 2015 12:42 GMT
#38222
I guess you just bend backwards really hard... Or something... Ugh.

If this is the best fairy tale they could come up with, they are in deeeeep shit.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 30 2015 13:44 GMT
#38223
A leaked police document that claims Freddie Gray was “intentionally trying to injure himself” while in the back of a police van in Baltimore after his arrest is being questioned due to inconsistencies with earlier reports.

Gray died a week after his videotaped April 12 arrest due to injuries sustained under uncertain circumstances while in police custody, sparking protests in Baltimore and around the nation.

The Washington Post reported on Wednesday night that a prisoner who was in the van with Gray allegedly told investigators he could hear Gray "banging against the walls" of the police vehicle, and said he believed Gray was "intentionally trying to injure himself," according to a document written by a Baltimore police investigator.

The initial shock of the report quickly transitioned to uncertainty and skepticism after questions were raised over the details. WBAL's Jayne Miller told MSNBC that the Post’s story was “inconsistent with what we reported.”

“We have reported for some time that by the time that prisoner is loaded into that van, Freddie Gray was unresponsive. Secondly we have no medical evidence that Freddie Gray suffered any injury that would indicate that he had injured himself,” Miller told MSNBC's Chris Hayes on Wednesday night.

Gray was only in the van with the second prisoner for the final five minutes of the ride, Miller told Lawrence O’Donnell on Wednesday evening. There is “no evidence [Gray was] banging [his] head against van,” Miller tweeted. Jane Cook, an attorney for the Gray family, called the report “speculation” as she had seen no evidence supporting it.


Jason Downs, another attorney of the Gray's, told the Post the prisoner's statement was new to them.

"We disagree with any implication that Freddie Gray severed his own spinal cord," Downs said. "We question the accuracy of the police reports we’ve seen thus far, including the police report that says Mr. Gray was arrested without force or incident."


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32163 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-30 14:01:06
April 30 2015 13:57 GMT
#38224
On April 30 2015 21:37 Plansix wrote:
I am pretty suspicious of a statement from a person the post cannot confirm exists and the original record is sealed. Its 3rd hand information without corroboration or support. And I have zero trust of any statement from the police union, as their solo purpose is to defend the interests of officers.

And I don't even know the logistics of severing your own spine. Like, how do you accomplish that in a moving van?

I supposed if you're seated while cuffed and trying to bang the back of your head, and you fall forward into the facing wall at the right angle you could break your neck like a hockey player hitting the boards head first. That could also just as easily happen if he were cuffed and seated and fell forward due to not having a seatbelt on (this apparently was made a policy just weeks before this happened)

But yeah, given that it's from the union so late after the fact I'd be a little dubious of the claim
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-30 13:58:16
April 30 2015 13:57 GMT
#38225
On April 30 2015 22:44 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
A leaked police document that claims Freddie Gray was “intentionally trying to injure himself” while in the back of a police van in Baltimore after his arrest is being questioned due to inconsistencies with earlier reports.

Gray died a week after his videotaped April 12 arrest due to injuries sustained under uncertain circumstances while in police custody, sparking protests in Baltimore and around the nation.

The Washington Post reported on Wednesday night that a prisoner who was in the van with Gray allegedly told investigators he could hear Gray "banging against the walls" of the police vehicle, and said he believed Gray was "intentionally trying to injure himself," according to a document written by a Baltimore police investigator.

The initial shock of the report quickly transitioned to uncertainty and skepticism after questions were raised over the details. WBAL's Jayne Miller told MSNBC that the Post’s story was “inconsistent with what we reported.”

“We have reported for some time that by the time that prisoner is loaded into that van, Freddie Gray was unresponsive. Secondly we have no medical evidence that Freddie Gray suffered any injury that would indicate that he had injured himself,” Miller told MSNBC's Chris Hayes on Wednesday night.

Gray was only in the van with the second prisoner for the final five minutes of the ride, Miller told Lawrence O’Donnell on Wednesday evening. There is “no evidence [Gray was] banging [his] head against van,” Miller tweeted. Jane Cook, an attorney for the Gray family, called the report “speculation” as she had seen no evidence supporting it.


Jason Downs, another attorney of the Gray's, told the Post the prisoner's statement was new to them.

"We disagree with any implication that Freddie Gray severed his own spinal cord," Downs said. "We question the accuracy of the police reports we’ve seen thus far, including the police report that says Mr. Gray was arrested without force or incident."


Source


Can you imagine being in the room for that meeting...

"Shit, we killed a dude. How do we get out of it?"
"Uh, maybe he killed himself? Bangin' against walls and some shit."
"Dude, he was under arrest and died of severe spinal injuries and was unresponsive by the time we put him on the bus."
"Uh... anybody have anything else?"
"...."
"Fuck it. Leak that story to the press and see if anybody buys it."
heliusx
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States2306 Posts
April 30 2015 14:48 GMT
#38226
I have to concur, I wouldn't believe anything the union says. Its literally their job to protect their members.
dude bro.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 30 2015 14:58 GMT
#38227
If was any other police department in the US, I might have some faith. But not with the Baltimore police. These sorts of leaks make me wonder even more. At least we have the Justice Department looking into it as well.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32163 Posts
April 30 2015 15:19 GMT
#38228
I'd be more inclinded to believe it if it came out first, not weeks after the fact from the union, who questioned another prisioner and absolutely gave him some kind of perk to go on the record.
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-30 17:46:20
April 30 2015 17:46 GMT
#38229
Would definitely suggest listening to this NPR article.

Racism runs a lot of ways.
liftlift > tsm
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
April 30 2015 18:42 GMT
#38230
On May 01 2015 02:46 wei2coolman wrote:
Would definitely suggest listening to this NPR article.

Racism runs a lot of ways.

All I got from this is that Travis Fonseca is an asshole.

Can you really blame the shops for not hiring locals if they're the kinds of people who loot and steal?

Can you really blame that shop for not letting him borrow a shirt? I mean what the fuck. What kind of moron expects to be able to borrow something from a store. How stupid do you have to be to think they might let you?
Who called in the fleet?
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
April 30 2015 18:56 GMT
#38231
On May 01 2015 03:42 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 01 2015 02:46 wei2coolman wrote:
Would definitely suggest listening to this NPR article.

Racism runs a lot of ways.

All I got from this is that Travis Fonseca is an asshole.

Can you really blame the shops for not hiring locals if they're the kinds of people who loot and steal?

Can you really blame that shop for not letting him borrow a shirt? I mean what the fuck. What kind of moron expects to be able to borrow something from a store. How stupid do you have to be to think they might let you?

That's some next level entitlement shit.
liftlift > tsm
Anesthetic
Profile Joined April 2012
United States225 Posts
April 30 2015 18:59 GMT
#38232
On April 30 2015 23:48 heliusx wrote:
I have to concur, I wouldn't believe anything the union says. Its literally their job to protect their members.

So then we can say the same for any pro-black organization/figure?

I think this is basically what this whole issue boils down to. We have a police force that disproportionally targets blacks (minorities) and then proceeds to try to excuse it and lie.However on the other hand we have the pro-black organizations and the the social justice movements that will do the very same thing and absolve any responsibility from the victim and accuse police officers without any proof. Both sides are wrong in a large number of aspects and are very hypocritical. The only difference between the two is that the police force has actual power and can get away with their wrongdoing much easier.
heliusx
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States2306 Posts
April 30 2015 19:00 GMT
#38233
On May 01 2015 03:59 Anesthetic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2015 23:48 heliusx wrote:
I have to concur, I wouldn't believe anything the union says. Its literally their job to protect their members.

So then we can say the same for any pro-black organization/figure?

I think this is basically what this whole issue boils down to. We have a police force that disproportionally targets blacks (minorities) and then proceeds to try to excuse it and lie.However on the other hand we have the pro-black organizations and the the social justice movements that will do the very same thing and absolve any responsibility from the victim and accuse police officers without any proof. Both sides are wrong in a large number of aspects and are very hypocritical. The only difference between the two is that the police force has actual power and can get away with their wrongdoing much easier.

I'm pretty much disgusted by the entirety of this.
dude bro.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-30 19:03:27
April 30 2015 19:02 GMT
#38234
Well the pro-black organization/figures are not preforming internal investigations or claiming to provide "evidence" that was found in the case. They also don't collect dues directly from the black communities paycheck.

And the answer is yes if they are lying or fabricating things. But there also are not "sides". There are many players in these and trying to boil it down to "sides" is oversimplify the entire event.

And yes, I am aware that some of the very leaders are trying to boil it down to sides. But those folks suck.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Anesthetic
Profile Joined April 2012
United States225 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-30 19:10:05
April 30 2015 19:09 GMT
#38235
On May 01 2015 04:02 Plansix wrote:
Well the pro-black organization/figures are not preforming internal investigations or claiming to provide "evidence" that was found in the case. They also don't collect dues directly from the black communities paycheck.

And the answer is yes if they are lying or fabricating things. But there also are not "sides". There are many players in these and trying to boil it down to "sides" is oversimplify the entire event.

And yes, I am aware that some of the very leaders are trying to boil it down to sides. But those folks suck.

While I understand this sentiment I have to point out that one of the biggest iconic chants from the protests "hands up don't shoot", was based on the single testimony of a friend of Mike Brown's and there is absolutely zero evidence to support this from any other witness so its pretty clear that this was made up.

Like I said, if blacks were in power they would pretty much be doing the same thing. As someone that has actually lived around blacks for the vast majority of my life I can guarantee you that they harbor just as much racism as whites, but like I said they simply don't have the power to do anything and get away with it.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 30 2015 19:24 GMT
#38236
On May 01 2015 04:09 Anesthetic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 01 2015 04:02 Plansix wrote:
Well the pro-black organization/figures are not preforming internal investigations or claiming to provide "evidence" that was found in the case. They also don't collect dues directly from the black communities paycheck.

And the answer is yes if they are lying or fabricating things. But there also are not "sides". There are many players in these and trying to boil it down to "sides" is oversimplify the entire event.

And yes, I am aware that some of the very leaders are trying to boil it down to sides. But those folks suck.

While I understand this sentiment I have to point out that one of the biggest iconic chants from the protests "hands up don't shoot", was based on the single testimony of a friend of Mike Brown's and there is absolutely zero evidence to support this from any other witness so its pretty clear that this was made up.

Like I said, if blacks were in power they would pretty much be doing the same thing. As someone that has actually lived around blacks for the vast majority of my life I can guarantee you that they harbor just as much racism as whites, but like I said they simply don't have the power to do anything and get away with it.

Yeah, and a black reporter for the Times came out and said it was wrong, receiving a ton of abuse for it. People bet on the wrong horses sometimes. However, there is no denying the fact police kill way to many people in this country and a lot of them are black. To many of them are unarmed and the events surrounding the death are questionable. That the police are buying up to much surplus military gear.

We have a problem with our police in many parts of this country.

And I don't give a shit about who is more racist than who. Trying to justify one sides shit by proving the other side is shitty is bush league. Its just an excuse not to look at your own problems. I'm not black, so I'm not going to pontificate to them how they should handle their problems. But I sure as hell am going to point out racism among whites.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Anesthetic
Profile Joined April 2012
United States225 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-30 19:36:03
April 30 2015 19:35 GMT
#38237
On May 01 2015 04:24 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 01 2015 04:09 Anesthetic wrote:
On May 01 2015 04:02 Plansix wrote:
Well the pro-black organization/figures are not preforming internal investigations or claiming to provide "evidence" that was found in the case. They also don't collect dues directly from the black communities paycheck.

And the answer is yes if they are lying or fabricating things. But there also are not "sides". There are many players in these and trying to boil it down to "sides" is oversimplify the entire event.

And yes, I am aware that some of the very leaders are trying to boil it down to sides. But those folks suck.

While I understand this sentiment I have to point out that one of the biggest iconic chants from the protests "hands up don't shoot", was based on the single testimony of a friend of Mike Brown's and there is absolutely zero evidence to support this from any other witness so its pretty clear that this was made up.

Like I said, if blacks were in power they would pretty much be doing the same thing. As someone that has actually lived around blacks for the vast majority of my life I can guarantee you that they harbor just as much racism as whites, but like I said they simply don't have the power to do anything and get away with it.

Yeah, and a black reporter for the Times came out and said it was wrong, receiving a ton of abuse for it. People bet on the wrong horses sometimes. However, there is no denying the fact police kill way to many people in this country and a lot of them are black. To many of them are unarmed and the events surrounding the death are questionable. That the police are buying up to much surplus military gear.

We have a problem with our police in many parts of this country.

And I don't give a shit about who is more racist than who. Trying to justify one sides shit by proving the other side is shitty is bush league. Its just an excuse not to look at your own problems. I'm not black, so I'm not going to pontificate to them how they should handle their problems. But I sure as hell am going to point out racism among whites.

I'm not trying to justify anything, I don't believe I even implied that in any of my posts. And I have to disagree, I have to say that the biggest problem is poverty as it leads to pretty much every other social problem we have.On average black commits more crimes, this is a fact, however it boils down to simply the fact that they are the poorest group in the country, and as long as this is the case then people will always have some sort of prejudice towards blacks. Sad but this is pretty much the case, people over here (The South Bronx) will always tend to be more careful around Blacks and Latinos than whites for the very same reason.

Until minorities are on an even economic field with whites, racism will always be an issue.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-30 19:54:25
April 30 2015 19:53 GMT
#38238
There's also a problem in the methodology of detecting crime. White collar crime is harder to detect, and people will more often get away with it. It's not necessarily that black people commit more crimes but they also get away with it less often because they're simply committing different kinds of crime, not necessarily more.
Wolfstan
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada605 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-30 19:58:57
April 30 2015 19:56 GMT
#38239
I think these oppressed blacks should come be Canadian. We seem to have a lot less racial tension here, I've been black since i was about 20 in 2004 and have never had any problems with our police. I hope Baltimore either cleans itself up or the good citizens leave.
EG - ROOT - Gambit Gaming
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 30 2015 19:58 GMT
#38240
Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) said in a recent interview that he'd "look at" a planned U.S. military training exercise that conspiracy theorists believe may be a cover for the implementation of martial law.

Des Moines, Iowa radio host Jan Mickelson asked the Republican presidential candidate in an April 21 interview whether he was up to speed on the training exercise dubbed "Jade Helm" that's scheduled to take place in several southwestern states.

"You know I've gotten a few questions about it on the road and I really don't—" Paul responded. "I'm not sure about exactly what is going on with that."

"It's making some people nervous, but it doesn't take much to make people nervous nowadays," Mickelson said. "If you get a chance to, I'd like to know what the rest of the story is on that."

"We'll look at that also," Paul assured him.

A spokesman for Paul did not immediately respond to a request for comment from TPM on Thursday.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
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