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As a Muslim and avid TLer I cannot stand for a thread with so much misinformation as 'The soul of Islam' (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369025) to remain up. Their are almost 24 pages of people commending zalz for a great write up. When s/he clearly has a very limited knowledge on the second biggest religion in the world Islam. I am currently working on a correct introduction to Islam thread but needed to get my concerns out there. 'The soul of Islam' Thread needs to be taken down immediately for it is just giving further misinformation about Islam rather than informing the TL community.
In the spoiler is a message I sent to zalz pointing out some of his errors before becoming frustrated
+ Show Spoiler + Z:"Some parts of muslim society believe that donating to terrorist or rebellious movements is also a form of zakat."
L:No parts of muslim society donate to 'terrorism' as it's shown in the media. They may donate their money to causes such as the libyan rebels (i.e. overall good cause) but no one donates to get other people harmed. Please remove this statement from your post.
Z: "Some of these pilgrimages have become food for legend and myth. Many African kings would often travel in vast entourages, filled with goods, gold, and even animals that the people of the region had rarely seen.
More practically, these pilgrimages were sometimes used as political tricks, forcing rivals to set out for a journey that could last them years. Other times, they were employed as ways to advance a political career, somewhat akin to how a Roman general would return to Rome in a triumph, so too did muslim politicians sometimes prove their worth in the way they undertook the pilgrimage to Mecca."
L: Both these statements have no proof and are absolutely useless your not explaining what Hajj is at all, your just throwing some bullshit in for no reason. Please remove them.
Z:"The Jewish tribe in the city of Medina had contemplated revolting, believing Muhammed's position to be one doomed for failure. Upon being succesful, Muhammed returned to deal with the Jews. He himself wanted to exile them, but his advisors urged him to strip them of their possession and exile them, which they ended up doing."
L:Where is the proof for this? The prophet never exiled anyone from there rightful lands nevertheless strip them of their possesions.
L:Your entire" History of Islam - Birth of an empire" section is wrong. Ali the prophet's nephew never opposed Abu Bakr.
Z:"Muhammed, in his own time, was often criticized for his love of food and spoils of war."
L:This is one of the most corrupt statements i have ever heard. The prophet never had more that 3 dates in his home as he always gave away everything he had. There was once an instance where the companions of the prophet tied single stones around their waist to trick their body into feeling full and when they saw the prophet they saw he had 3 stones around his waist. The prophet never kept anything for himself he always lived like that.
Z:"It is often said that Islam, for its time, was a great improvement for the lives of women, is actually true. At the time, having a girl was considered an insult to one's manhood, often used as objects to trade for favors or deals. Under Islam, women were recognized as humans, though still not quite equal to men." L: You are greatly misinformed if you actually read the Quran would you realize the equality between Men and Women. The prophet said in his final sermon "No person (i.e. males and females) have superiority over another except by piety and good action"
Z:"* When the first quran was written, it was noticed that the Arabic language at the time wasn't always perfectly clear, giving rise to different ways of reading certain passages. It was declared that there were, at least, eight different readings that were equally valid."
L:Different Dilects not readings they all mean the same just sound different.
Z:" Whilst the headscarf is considered cannon, the face veil is actually never mentioned in the quran. The division on the subject comes from muslims that differ on whether to adhere to the quran (cover the head and hands) or follow what Muhammed the perfect muslim did (his wives were veiled). Facial veils are prominent in Saudi-Arabia, Afghanistan and Pakistan, but are very rare in Iran."
L:It is mentioned in Surah Noor.
Please remove your post before you cause furthur misconceptions.
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If you read any of my posts on that thread, you may immediately dismiss my questions/input (though those posts were largely troll based). I am very eager to hear some information from you though and I will acknowledge that my view of Islam does have bias so, let this be of actual progress and information like you said in your OP. I dont assume that you are a violent person who day dreams about killing Americans...but can we acknowledge that your relgion has a lot of members that really do feel this way? What would you say in defense of your religion when there are so many people giving it a bad name? Obviously there are people who think of it as religion and their way of life, ultimately intended to be a positive thing and a spiritual guide...When did that get lost? How could it ever be fixed with the consistant bad news and terrorism?
Thx for trying to put an end to that bs thread.
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If people want information about Islam they should head to wikipedia or better yet read the Quran.
Here are the sparknotes for people with even shorter attention spans:
+ Show Spoiler +It's full of the same batshit insane claims that every other holy book is.
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
Hang on, are you going to give the politically correct portrayal of Mohammad or the real Mohammad? This will make a difference. Also, about that "religion of peace" thing for when your religion gets insulted, why do you guys erupt in anger and revolt?
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The only thing I don't understand is why you decided to make a thread now, and not when you were actually finished with anything with substance. Is this some kind of announcement that you're in fact working on creating a proper thread?
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On September 18 2012 04:36 llSpektrll wrote: If you read any of my posts on that thread, you may immediately dismiss my questions/input (though those posts were largely troll based). I am very eager to hear some information from you though and I will acknowledge that my view of Islam does have bias so, let this be of actual progress and information like you said in your OP. I dont assume that you are a violent person who day dreams about killing Americans...but can we acknowledge that your relgion has a lot of members that really do feel this way? What would you say in defense of your religion when there are so many people giving it a bad name? Obviously there are people who think of it as religion and their way of life, ultimately intended to be a positive thing and a spiritual guide...When did that get lost? How could it ever be fixed with the consistant bad news and terrorism?
Thx for trying to put an end to that bs thread. I can ask you the same question, except "christians" are killing at least 10-20 times as many innocent people as the so called muslims with drones, airstrikes, etc. I don't fault christianity for it, but rather men's greed for money/power/etc. Likewise for muslims. Most abuse of women and killing doesn't happen because of islam but rather abuse of power/tribal traditions.
If you really want to know about islam/muslims go read the quran or visit a muslim country and interact with the people. I don't see how people in the west expect to get the true picture of islam when most of the information they recieve is from the biased media or neo-nazis who are usually completely nuts.
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On September 18 2012 04:39 amazingxkcd wrote: Hang on, are you going to give the politically correct portrayal of Mohammad or the real Mohammad? This will make a difference. Also, about that "religion of peace" thing for when your religion gets insulted, why do you guys erupt in anger and revolt?
I have to admit this is the fault of the muslims as we are not completely following the Prophets example. The prophet was mocked and ridiculed almost his entire life but he always responded peacefully never taking revenge often saying " They are ignorant they do not know, I must show them" . Also please take into consideration that there are around 1.2 billion muslims, so the act of even 1000 is only a fraction of a percent of the entire population.
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You know what they say. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery.
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I think that zalz did a perfectly acceptable job of writing about religion. His post is very nonbiased, and considering that it is zalz, most of the information in it is likely factually true.
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On September 18 2012 04:47 IMLyte wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 04:39 amazingxkcd wrote: Hang on, are you going to give the politically correct portrayal of Mohammad or the real Mohammad? This will make a difference. Also, about that "religion of peace" thing for when your religion gets insulted, why do you guys erupt in anger and revolt? I have to admit this is the fault of the muslims as we are not completely following the Prophets example. The prophet was mocked and ridiculed almost his entire life but he always responded peacefully never taking revenge often saying " They are ignorant they do not know, I must show them" . Also please take into consideration that there are around 1.2 billion muslims, so the act of even 1000 is only a fraction of a percent of the entire population. didn't he use assassination and military force?
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Religious people scare the shit out of me.
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These threads are pointless anyway. Religion is personal, stays personal and must be personal in a multicultural society.
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I enjoy these threads as the subject of my religion class is currently Islam soa nonbiased view followed by a islamic "correction" works fine for me
Happy to see the discussion in the OP's, I'll confess didn't read the thread but the last OP pretty much matched the education I had received in school, so I dont know how bullshit/misinformed it is :p
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On September 18 2012 04:39 amazingxkcd wrote: Hang on, are you going to give the politically correct portrayal of Mohammad or the real Mohammad? This will make a difference. Also, about that "religion of peace" thing for when your religion gets insulted, why do you guys erupt in anger and revolt?
Who is "you guys"???
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On September 18 2012 04:44 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 04:36 llSpektrll wrote: If you read any of my posts on that thread, you may immediately dismiss my questions/input (though those posts were largely troll based). I am very eager to hear some information from you though and I will acknowledge that my view of Islam does have bias so, let this be of actual progress and information like you said in your OP. I dont assume that you are a violent person who day dreams about killing Americans...but can we acknowledge that your relgion has a lot of members that really do feel this way? What would you say in defense of your religion when there are so many people giving it a bad name? Obviously there are people who think of it as religion and their way of life, ultimately intended to be a positive thing and a spiritual guide...When did that get lost? How could it ever be fixed with the consistant bad news and terrorism?
Thx for trying to put an end to that bs thread. I can ask you the same question, except "christians" are killing at least 10-20 times as many innocent people as the so called muslims with drones, airstrikes, etc. I don't fault christianity for it, but rather men's greed for money/power/etc. Likewise for muslims. Most abuse of women and killing doesn't happen because of islam but rather abuse of power/tribal traditions. If you really want to know about islam/muslims go read the quran or visit a muslim country and interact with the people. I don't see how people in the west expect to get the true picture of islam when most of the information they recieve is from the biased media or neo-nazis who are usually completely nuts.
Seemed like you were just referencing American troops as the "Christians"...the Crusades might've been a more applicable example of christian violence? And yes, your point is true, people in many religions have exhibited violence but I cant think of any that continue to do so today and have the tag of "Terrorists" labeled on them. And yeh...lol, I dont think my white-gamer ass is gonna make it over there for the "experience" anytime soon.
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On September 18 2012 05:02 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 04:39 amazingxkcd wrote: Hang on, are you going to give the politically correct portrayal of Mohammad or the real Mohammad? This will make a difference. Also, about that "religion of peace" thing for when your religion gets insulted, why do you guys erupt in anger and revolt? Who is "you guys"???
Who do you think?
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On September 18 2012 04:55 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 04:47 IMLyte wrote:On September 18 2012 04:39 amazingxkcd wrote: Hang on, are you going to give the politically correct portrayal of Mohammad or the real Mohammad? This will make a difference. Also, about that "religion of peace" thing for when your religion gets insulted, why do you guys erupt in anger and revolt? I have to admit this is the fault of the muslims as we are not completely following the Prophets example. The prophet was mocked and ridiculed almost his entire life but he always responded peacefully never taking revenge often saying " They are ignorant they do not know, I must show them" . Also please take into consideration that there are around 1.2 billion muslims, so the act of even 1000 is only a fraction of a percent of the entire population. didn't he use assassination and military force? Not sure about targeted assassinations but he was definitely involved in a lot of violence. Raids, battles, ambushes, that sort of thing.
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I think I will wait for the detailed follow-up.
Please ensure that you make it better-written and more comprehensive than this OP, which comes across largely as "nuh-uh" without much to back up your refutations (which may be perfectly justified, but this thread does not show that very well).
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Wait ? Source please ? Equality between man and women ? What ? When ? Are you just trying to troll ? Im pretty fucking sure that mosques are arranged in such a way that women and kids are separate from mans entirely and it's oky for a man to have multiple wives but for a women its not to have multiple husbands.
The other thread might no be 100% correct but its 99% correct, it s a religion after all nothing will be 100% correct. It seems to me that you simply fell insulted by your own religion and instead blame him for just talking about it in an objective light not a subjective one like you see it in.
Im pretty sure that there is no rule on teamliqud about people worshiping cloud people being denied the right to speak... but do you really have to make a thread if you fell someone "offended" a certain group of cloud people worshipers ?
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Is TL really the place to have threads debate each other about religion ?
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On September 18 2012 04:27 IMLyte wrote:
Under Islam, women were recognized as humans, though still not quite equal to men."
I have no words. Of all the shameless, apologist bullshit I've ever heard...
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If this thread's intent is to get both itself and the Soul of Islam thread closed, it has my full support
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He/She is so quickly to point out that the information is incorrect in the other post. Regardless, teamliquid is meant to be a forum to discuss video games not religion. Using the "General Forum" as a scapegoat is pretty lame and among other things. If you want to learn about those topics hit up your local church / whatever you use for religious relief.
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On September 18 2012 05:21 bK- wrote: He/She is so quickly to point out that the information is incorrect in the other post. Regardless, teamliquid is meant to be a forum to discuss video games not religion. Using the "General Forum" as a scapegoat is pretty lame and among other things. If you want to learn about those topics hit up your local church / whatever you use for religious relief. I like discussing other topics. I'm genuinely interested in hearing about Islam from a Muslim. you're free to stick to the video game sections of the website.
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On September 18 2012 04:44 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 04:36 llSpektrll wrote: If you read any of my posts on that thread, you may immediately dismiss my questions/input (though those posts were largely troll based). I am very eager to hear some information from you though and I will acknowledge that my view of Islam does have bias so, let this be of actual progress and information like you said in your OP. I dont assume that you are a violent person who day dreams about killing Americans...but can we acknowledge that your relgion has a lot of members that really do feel this way? What would you say in defense of your religion when there are so many people giving it a bad name? Obviously there are people who think of it as religion and their way of life, ultimately intended to be a positive thing and a spiritual guide...When did that get lost? How could it ever be fixed with the consistant bad news and terrorism?
Thx for trying to put an end to that bs thread. I can ask you the same question, except "christians" are killing at least 10-20 times as many innocent people as the so called muslims with drones, airstrikes, etc. I don't fault christianity for it, but rather men's greed for money/power/etc. Likewise for muslims. Most abuse of women and killing doesn't happen because of islam but rather abuse of power/tribal traditions. If you really want to know about islam/muslims go read the quran or visit a muslim country and interact with the people. I don't see how people in the west expect to get the true picture of islam when most of the information they recieve is from the biased media or neo-nazis who are usually completely nuts.
i lived in kuwait for 12 years - i can tell you the media is not biased, in fact cultural attitudes are often worse than portrayed in western media. there was a talk show on the national tv channel were it was recommended that homosexuals be tortured and executed in public. and this was a mainstream talk show.
after reading your posts in this thread, no offence, but i think you are the one whos extremely biased.
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Personnaly, I hate how the mainstream medias guided by "Franc Macons" & Sionnism (Dunno how to tell in english) get always on the fact they are muslim who shut down the world assasinate everyone and that kind of bullshits.
The fact is there are some people behind this like Israel ( i mean the leaders one ) Banks, American-sionnist kind too
So just get off of the the main stream medias & get some reality gettin to the alter information, you should learn a lot of things bout the world, and the New World Order.
Btw good post about how to defend muslims, i'm not one personnaly but got high respect for this religion.
User was banned for this post.
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^ Welcome to the Internet pizzaparty
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gF1w1.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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My course load is kinda heavy, but should get my 'Intro to Islam' well written and well presented in a few days.
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>The soul of Islam' Thread needs to be taken down immediately for it is just giving further misinformation about Islam rather than informing the TL community.
Muslim calling for censorship? What a surprise. Go ahead and write a competing profile of Islam, but don't call for other people's views to be censored and hidden. That's a large part of what people are complaining about w.r.t Islam and your actions confirm it.
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The thread must be taken down? How about producing a proper rebuttal to the thread instead of demanding a takedown?
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On September 18 2012 05:34 IMLyte wrote: My course load is kinda heavy, but should get my 'Intro to Islam' well written and well presented in a few days. can you address this question now? I have a feeling this thread might not be around much longer. + Show Spoiler +On September 18 2012 04:55 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 04:47 IMLyte wrote:On September 18 2012 04:39 amazingxkcd wrote: Hang on, are you going to give the politically correct portrayal of Mohammad or the real Mohammad? This will make a difference. Also, about that "religion of peace" thing for when your religion gets insulted, why do you guys erupt in anger and revolt? I have to admit this is the fault of the muslims as we are not completely following the Prophets example. The prophet was mocked and ridiculed almost his entire life but he always responded peacefully never taking revenge often saying " They are ignorant they do not know, I must show them" . Also please take into consideration that there are around 1.2 billion muslims, so the act of even 1000 is only a fraction of a percent of the entire population. didn't he use assassination and military force?
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On September 18 2012 05:36 cz wrote: >The soul of Islam' Thread needs to be taken down immediately for it is just giving further misinformation about Islam rather than informing the TL community.
Muslim calling for censorship? What a surprise. Go ahead and write a competing profile of Islam, but don't call for other people's views to be censored and hidden. That's a large part of what people are complaining about w.r.t Islam and your actions confirm it.
** Delete
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On September 18 2012 05:31 llSpektrll wrote:^ Welcome to the Internet pizzaparty ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gF1w1.jpg) Internet pizzaparty? Really cmon now you can do better than that to derail a thread
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On September 18 2012 05:31 llSpektrll wrote:^ Welcome to the Internet pizzaparty + Show Spoiler +
lol Better take that down quick before mods come in...
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On September 18 2012 05:38 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 05:34 IMLyte wrote: My course load is kinda heavy, but should get my 'Intro to Islam' well written and well presented in a few days. can you address this question now? I have a feeling this thread might not be around much longer. + Show Spoiler +On September 18 2012 04:55 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 04:47 IMLyte wrote:On September 18 2012 04:39 amazingxkcd wrote: Hang on, are you going to give the politically correct portrayal of Mohammad or the real Mohammad? This will make a difference. Also, about that "religion of peace" thing for when your religion gets insulted, why do you guys erupt in anger and revolt? I have to admit this is the fault of the muslims as we are not completely following the Prophets example. The prophet was mocked and ridiculed almost his entire life but he always responded peacefully never taking revenge often saying " They are ignorant they do not know, I must show them" . Also please take into consideration that there are around 1.2 billion muslims, so the act of even 1000 is only a fraction of a percent of the entire population. didn't he use assassination and military force? He only used assassination and military force to save the souls of people, it obviously doesn't count.
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Could you bring up these points in the main soul of Islam thread and just have zalz make a link to your post? I'm sure if you write your viewpoint out well, he'll link to your post as a second viewpoint.
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So you're demanding a thread be removed and you don't even cite the Koran or any history texts to back up your claims.
As for your responses, I don't believe for a second that "no [Muslim] donates to get other people harmed" let alone that there are not being a huge amount of Muslims who support Jihad both strategically and ideologically.
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I hope that you also mention that Islam and all religions are based around blind dogma too and should be taken with a gallon of salt. Islam in itself has already caused a lot of casualty's in it's name. I don't see the need in spreading such dogma.
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On September 18 2012 04:44 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 04:36 llSpektrll wrote: If you read any of my posts on that thread, you may immediately dismiss my questions/input (though those posts were largely troll based). I am very eager to hear some information from you though and I will acknowledge that my view of Islam does have bias so, let this be of actual progress and information like you said in your OP. I dont assume that you are a violent person who day dreams about killing Americans...but can we acknowledge that your relgion has a lot of members that really do feel this way? What would you say in defense of your religion when there are so many people giving it a bad name? Obviously there are people who think of it as religion and their way of life, ultimately intended to be a positive thing and a spiritual guide...When did that get lost? How could it ever be fixed with the consistant bad news and terrorism?
Thx for trying to put an end to that bs thread. I can ask you the same question, except "christians" are killing at least 10-20 times as many innocent people as the so called muslims with drones, airstrikes, etc. I don't fault christianity for it, but rather men's greed for money/power/etc. Likewise for muslims. Most abuse of women and killing doesn't happen because of islam but rather abuse of power/tribal traditions. If you really want to know about islam/muslims go read the quran or visit a muslim country and interact with the people. I don't see how people in the west expect to get the true picture of islam when most of the information they recieve is from the biased media or neo-nazis who are usually completely nuts.
Lived in a muslim country for 95% of my life, have heard people call the london bombings self defence. I am neither a neo nazi nor a biased christian, yet I have heard and seen things that would not be acceptable in any part of the west. I do not know whether religion,upbringing or culture are the basis for such behavior/acceptance though.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
Why don't you just reply in the other thread?
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