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On March 25 2012 17:59 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 17:34 Sawamura wrote:On March 25 2012 17:12 Letmelose wrote:On March 25 2012 16:52 Sawamura wrote:On March 25 2012 16:47 Letmelose wrote:On March 25 2012 16:10 Sawamura wrote:On March 25 2012 15:53 Letmelose wrote:
I like teams that have history and depth. Teams with interesting stories. Teams that create great players, not steal them from less financially stable teams.
Whenever I see the CJ team, I'm reminded of the glorius GO team that had the likes of Go_Rush, Nal_Ra, Midas, ForU, and of course, Xellos. Xellos was a GO man through and through, and stuck with his team and even shared is tournament winnings. The team just oozed class. Plus, coach Cho was awesome. Throughout the years we've seen the rise of so many generations of superb players from the team.
Team 8 reminds me of the now gone POS team and PLUS teams. How July came out of nowhere into superstardom. How he played his designted 1v1 games, 2v2 games as both zerg and terran, ACE matches, and to top things of even 1v1 games as a random player, to support his team while coach Ha constructed the team from rock bottom to discover stars such as Sea. How MBCGame eventually conquered all with their three musketeers. Or the parallel story from the PLUS team with Anytime, and their rise to the top only two years after being the worst team out there by far.
Then there are teams that steal. Like when KT snatched Flash when WeMade Fox was under financial stress. Especially so with SK Telecom T1 with the likes of Midas, and Bisu. Their success and victories are less meaningful because their stories can be summarized with "So we bought these guys, and some faltered because their drive was no longer there because of the high salaries, but it's okay because we also got some other guys and it worked out great for us."
SK Telecom T1 and KT are boring because they are the epitome of the financially stable teams. There are no odds stacked against them. There are no miracles. There are no superstars that come out of nowhere, only mercinaries. They are expected to do well, and often do well, and when they don't, it's okay because they can buy more players. Teams like MBCGame reached the top against all odds, but when they couln't keep their best future prospect in Bisu because of financial hardships, the miracle couldn't be sustained and now they're disbanded.
There's no uncertainty for the bigger teams, and while that may make things easier to support them, just know you're supporting the most boring teams also. A bigger trophy cabinet and fan base doesn't always mean a richer history. CJ ain't the same CJ like it used to be . Of course. Hite Sparkyz got added to the mix. I don't quite follow how that is the same as specifically recruiting players from less stable teams consistantly throughout the years. If you are talking about Luxury and Forgg they are long gone from the bw scene . Estro Action wasn't a MsL winner, WJ.CH was sold to KT and I wouldn't call WJ a LESS STABLE team . Fox folded up and their players were put on a draft and KT took in wooki and mind . I don't see what the point you are trying to get here . Most of the players kt drafted were considered to be only specialised in one section of the game and they weren't as good as the msl winners like forgg and luxury . Focusing purely on the present status of things. The current CJ Entus has Effort, Snow, Movie and Skyhigh. They were there from the start, and all play a vital role in their team. I remember Snow being hyped as the next great CJ Entus player by coach Cho, comparing him with the likes and Xellos and Savior. Movie was scolded by coach Cho when he was a no-name scrub because his low-apm games made him look like he was browsing the net instead of practicing. All these players grew with their team and their team is much richer for this. Off the top of my head, the current KT side has... who? Stats, Hoejja, and Barracks. We all know Flash was a WeMade Fox prodigy. Reach made his name as a Hanbit player. Action was known for his defiler play back when he was at Estro. KT continuously buys players, whether they are individual league winners or not (although trades of that magnitude are rarely seen in other teams). It's a huge part of why they are such a good team. Deal with it. Only a minor fraction of the team was there to start off with. Richer team lol ? The only players that is on CJ Entus that are playing well are not even from CJ in the first place . Especially Horang 2 and Leta their performance in proleague and playoff was much more better than your "homegrown" players . Hydra and effort who are suppose to be the best ZvZ players were destroyed by Hoejja(homegrown) and Action .Despite Action being known for his late game versus terran, It's also credited to KT Coaching staff that action improve in his other match up and he had potential in him . 1. Leta and Horang2 performing well would be Hite Sparkyz players outperforming CJ Entus players. Again, I don't follow how that fact works in your argument since there's a difference between two teams fusing and KT buying specific players that they want. 2. KT won against CJ Entus. Nice to see you so giddy over that. CJ Entus ain't my team, I'm just pointing out the obvious while you swing back and forth over various issues. If you cannot deal with the fact that the best homegrown talent from KT is Stats, and have to resort to "we still won against homegrown talents, so there!", to someone who doesn't even have team loyalties, you're going down a path I'm not willing to follow. Congratulations on your team's success.
The best home grown players on KT is not only Stats but Hoejja and Violet .
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On March 25 2012 17:12 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 16:52 Sawamura wrote:On March 25 2012 16:47 Letmelose wrote:On March 25 2012 16:10 Sawamura wrote:On March 25 2012 15:53 Letmelose wrote:
I like teams that have history and depth. Teams with interesting stories. Teams that create great players, not steal them from less financially stable teams.
Whenever I see the CJ team, I'm reminded of the glorius GO team that had the likes of Go_Rush, Nal_Ra, Midas, ForU, and of course, Xellos. Xellos was a GO man through and through, and stuck with his team and even shared is tournament winnings. The team just oozed class. Plus, coach Cho was awesome. Throughout the years we've seen the rise of so many generations of superb players from the team.
Team 8 reminds me of the now gone POS team and PLUS teams. How July came out of nowhere into superstardom. How he played his designted 1v1 games, 2v2 games as both zerg and terran, ACE matches, and to top things of even 1v1 games as a random player, to support his team while coach Ha constructed the team from rock bottom to discover stars such as Sea. How MBCGame eventually conquered all with their three musketeers. Or the parallel story from the PLUS team with Anytime, and their rise to the top only two years after being the worst team out there by far.
Then there are teams that steal. Like when KT snatched Flash when WeMade Fox was under financial stress. Especially so with SK Telecom T1 with the likes of Midas, and Bisu. Their success and victories are less meaningful because their stories can be summarized with "So we bought these guys, and some faltered because their drive was no longer there because of the high salaries, but it's okay because we also got some other guys and it worked out great for us."
SK Telecom T1 and KT are boring because they are the epitome of the financially stable teams. There are no odds stacked against them. There are no miracles. There are no superstars that come out of nowhere, only mercinaries. They are expected to do well, and often do well, and when they don't, it's okay because they can buy more players. Teams like MBCGame reached the top against all odds, but when they couln't keep their best future prospect in Bisu because of financial hardships, the miracle couldn't be sustained and now they're disbanded.
There's no uncertainty for the bigger teams, and while that may make things easier to support them, just know you're supporting the most boring teams also. A bigger trophy cabinet and fan base doesn't always mean a richer history. CJ ain't the same CJ like it used to be . Of course. Hite Sparkyz got added to the mix. I don't quite follow how that is the same as specifically recruiting players from less stable teams consistantly throughout the years. If you are talking about Luxury and Forgg they are long gone from the bw scene . Estro Action wasn't a MsL winner, WJ.CH was sold to KT and I wouldn't call WJ a LESS STABLE team . Fox folded up and their players were put on a draft and KT took in wooki and mind . I don't see what the point you are trying to get here . Most of the players kt drafted were considered to be only specialised in one section of the game and they weren't as good as the msl winners like forgg and luxury . Focusing purely on the present status of things. The current CJ Entus has Effort, Snow, Movie and Skyhigh. They were there from the start, and all play a vital role in their team. I remember Snow being hyped as the next great CJ Entus player by coach Cho, comparing him with the likes and Xellos and Savior. Movie was scolded by coach Cho when he was a no-name scrub because his low-apm games made him look like he was browsing the net instead of practicing. All these players grew with their team and their team is much richer for this. Off the top of my head, the current KT side has... who? Stats, Hoejja, and Barracks. We all know Flash was a WeMade Fox prodigy. Reach made his name as a Hanbit player. Action was known for his defiler play back when he was at Estro. KT continuously buys players, whether they are individual league winners or not (although trades of that magnitude are rarely seen in other teams). It's a huge part of why they are such a good team. Deal with it. Only a minor fraction of the team was there to start off with.
Flash a WeMade prodigy!? He was on Pantech for a very short period of time and played zero televised games with them. That you would choose to so heavily associate him with that team after all these years is bizarre.
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To me it was easy to vote:
SKT
Khan
CJ!!!!!!! :D:D:D:D
Had the OZ option been there, I would let Khan go...but with no OZ Khan fans surely take the title for me 
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You know, it's a credit to the BW forums that this thread has got to 12 pages without being derailed yet.
I think that one guy who posted in one of the LR threads about Bisu/Flash fans is almost right:
Bisu fans are like Bisu himself, relatively simple and happy go lucky. They are excited when he wins and sad when he loses, and occasionally rage when he gets cheesed out or loses games in retarded ways, especially to Hydra busts.
Flash fans are the most delusional and defensive, thinking that he's unbeatable and always trying to find excuses for his losses or reasons why he "didn't actually lose", posting long arguments refuting claims that Flash is slumping or could possibly lose a standard game to someone who just played better.
Jaedong fans, on the other hand, are filled with this seething anger. The two fangroups listed above are mostly just concerned with how their own guy performs, but JD fans seem to have this need to spew vitriol at everyone else, the usual targets being Flash and Bisu. When JD wins, you'll find posts like "yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah Jaedong! FUCK YOU FLASH, FUCK YOU BISU, the King is back!!!11", even when the game in question has nothing to do with KT or SKT. And when JD loses or goes through a patch of poor form, it's even worse. JD fans will jump into threads where he isn't even playing just to post inflammatory crap like "where's your God now?" or "mmmmmmmmmm Bisu tears". I don't understand where this anger comes from, but it makes JD fans by far the most obnoxious. That guy GG.No.Re (or however it's spelt) who is now a PBU is the perfect stereotype of the angry Jaedong fan imo.
Stork fans I don't really know enough about to make a comment on.
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Glad to be loved by the people here. 
At the same time, it's nice that we have a few teams, like T8 and ACE, that we can all cheer for.
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definitely SKT. i know KT has a ton of annoying fans, but barring flash fanboyism, I believe nearly all us of are able to acknowledge the weaknesses of our team. personally I only get annoyed when people suggest that someone > flash overall, because that's simply not true; he is human and can occassionally lose games to snipers, but he's the best human out there along with jd.
Some SKT fans often fail to give credit where credit is due, instead they start bashing the winning player for strange reasons. Even when SKT is not even playing. That is toxic to the shrinking community.
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I followed Bisu into T1 and I'm not ashamed of it. xD
It was actually a toss-up between T1 (and MBC to a lesser extent) and CJ for a while as Bisu and sAviOr are my all-time favorite players, but then I didn't really care for anyone else in CJ past or present, whereas T1 had a massive tradition and legacy and when Bisu moved there it was a no-brainer. Although these days, ever since some of the games last season (like the one vs Soulkey), Sun is actually the T1 player I'm most excited to see play / do well.
I don't really hate any teams, although the whole Flash-worship can get rather annoying. Then again you can't hate on the team that used to be called Katie Fingerboom, a damn awesome pornstar name. 
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On March 25 2012 18:14 J1.au wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 17:12 Letmelose wrote:On March 25 2012 16:52 Sawamura wrote:On March 25 2012 16:47 Letmelose wrote:On March 25 2012 16:10 Sawamura wrote:On March 25 2012 15:53 Letmelose wrote:
I like teams that have history and depth. Teams with interesting stories. Teams that create great players, not steal them from less financially stable teams.
Whenever I see the CJ team, I'm reminded of the glorius GO team that had the likes of Go_Rush, Nal_Ra, Midas, ForU, and of course, Xellos. Xellos was a GO man through and through, and stuck with his team and even shared is tournament winnings. The team just oozed class. Plus, coach Cho was awesome. Throughout the years we've seen the rise of so many generations of superb players from the team.
Team 8 reminds me of the now gone POS team and PLUS teams. How July came out of nowhere into superstardom. How he played his designted 1v1 games, 2v2 games as both zerg and terran, ACE matches, and to top things of even 1v1 games as a random player, to support his team while coach Ha constructed the team from rock bottom to discover stars such as Sea. How MBCGame eventually conquered all with their three musketeers. Or the parallel story from the PLUS team with Anytime, and their rise to the top only two years after being the worst team out there by far.
Then there are teams that steal. Like when KT snatched Flash when WeMade Fox was under financial stress. Especially so with SK Telecom T1 with the likes of Midas, and Bisu. Their success and victories are less meaningful because their stories can be summarized with "So we bought these guys, and some faltered because their drive was no longer there because of the high salaries, but it's okay because we also got some other guys and it worked out great for us."
SK Telecom T1 and KT are boring because they are the epitome of the financially stable teams. There are no odds stacked against them. There are no miracles. There are no superstars that come out of nowhere, only mercinaries. They are expected to do well, and often do well, and when they don't, it's okay because they can buy more players. Teams like MBCGame reached the top against all odds, but when they couln't keep their best future prospect in Bisu because of financial hardships, the miracle couldn't be sustained and now they're disbanded.
There's no uncertainty for the bigger teams, and while that may make things easier to support them, just know you're supporting the most boring teams also. A bigger trophy cabinet and fan base doesn't always mean a richer history. CJ ain't the same CJ like it used to be . Of course. Hite Sparkyz got added to the mix. I don't quite follow how that is the same as specifically recruiting players from less stable teams consistantly throughout the years. If you are talking about Luxury and Forgg they are long gone from the bw scene . Estro Action wasn't a MsL winner, WJ.CH was sold to KT and I wouldn't call WJ a LESS STABLE team . Fox folded up and their players were put on a draft and KT took in wooki and mind . I don't see what the point you are trying to get here . Most of the players kt drafted were considered to be only specialised in one section of the game and they weren't as good as the msl winners like forgg and luxury . Focusing purely on the present status of things. The current CJ Entus has Effort, Snow, Movie and Skyhigh. They were there from the start, and all play a vital role in their team. I remember Snow being hyped as the next great CJ Entus player by coach Cho, comparing him with the likes and Xellos and Savior. Movie was scolded by coach Cho when he was a no-name scrub because his low-apm games made him look like he was browsing the net instead of practicing. All these players grew with their team and their team is much richer for this. Off the top of my head, the current KT side has... who? Stats, Hoejja, and Barracks. We all know Flash was a WeMade Fox prodigy. Reach made his name as a Hanbit player. Action was known for his defiler play back when he was at Estro. KT continuously buys players, whether they are individual league winners or not (although trades of that magnitude are rarely seen in other teams). It's a huge part of why they are such a good team. Deal with it. Only a minor fraction of the team was there to start off with. Flash a WeMade prodigy!? He was on Pantech for a very short period of time and played zero televised games with them. That you would choose to so heavily associate him with that team after all these years is bizarre.
I know right? I can understand the sentiment that KT hires a bunch of mercenaries because of fOrGG, luxury, action, crazy-hydra, etc but to claim Flash as anything other than KT is just silly. It's like saying Kobe Bryant isn't an Los Angeles Laker because he spent the first 5 days of his career as a member of the Charlotte Hornets. A player's legacy and a team's history is determined by what actually happened and not what could have been. It's not like Flash was a bonjwa right from the get go. He developed from a cheesy, above average terran to the most skilled player of all time under KT's watch. Maybe it would have happened under FOX but maybe not. Either way Flash is unquestionably 100% KT.
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Who the hell hates Air Force ACE fans?
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On March 25 2012 18:42 FuRong wrote:
You know, it's a credit to the BW forums that this thread has got to 12 pages without being derailed yet.
I think that one guy who posted in one of the LR threads about Bisu/Flash fans is almost right:
Bisu fans are like Bisu himself, relatively simple and happy go lucky. They are excited when he wins and sad when he loses, and occasionally rage when he gets cheesed out or loses games in retarded ways, especially to Hydra busts.
Flash fans are the most delusional and defensive, thinking that he's unbeatable and always trying to find excuses for his losses or reasons why he "didn't actually lose", posting long arguments refuting claims that Flash is slumping or could possibly lose a standard game to someone who just played better.
Jaedong fans, on the other hand, are filled with this seething anger. The two fangroups listed above are mostly just concerned with how their own guy performs, but JD fans seem to have this need to spew vitriol at everyone else, the usual targets being Flash and Bisu. When JD wins, you'll find posts like "yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah Jaedong! FUCK YOU FLASH, FUCK YOU BISU, the King is back!!!11", even when the game in question has nothing to do with KT or SKT. And when JD loses or goes through a patch of poor form, it's even worse. JD fans will jump into threads where he isn't even playing just to post inflammatory crap like "where's your God now?" or "mmmmmmmmmm Bisu tears". I don't understand where this anger comes from, but it makes JD fans by far the most obnoxious. That guy GG.No.Re (or however it's spelt) who is now a PBU is the perfect stereotype of the angry Jaedong fan imo.
Stork fans I don't really know enough about to make a comment on.
Lol, to be honest, your completely correct. I also admit that I am a Jaedong fan, and that he is forever my king. I am also a Stork fan, and from that, you already know your main man is going to get in second, so you cheer for him regardless of his results.
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On March 25 2012 20:19 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 18:14 J1.au wrote:On March 25 2012 17:12 Letmelose wrote:On March 25 2012 16:52 Sawamura wrote:On March 25 2012 16:47 Letmelose wrote:On March 25 2012 16:10 Sawamura wrote:On March 25 2012 15:53 Letmelose wrote:
I like teams that have history and depth. Teams with interesting stories. Teams that create great players, not steal them from less financially stable teams.
Whenever I see the CJ team, I'm reminded of the glorius GO team that had the likes of Go_Rush, Nal_Ra, Midas, ForU, and of course, Xellos. Xellos was a GO man through and through, and stuck with his team and even shared is tournament winnings. The team just oozed class. Plus, coach Cho was awesome. Throughout the years we've seen the rise of so many generations of superb players from the team.
Team 8 reminds me of the now gone POS team and PLUS teams. How July came out of nowhere into superstardom. How he played his designted 1v1 games, 2v2 games as both zerg and terran, ACE matches, and to top things of even 1v1 games as a random player, to support his team while coach Ha constructed the team from rock bottom to discover stars such as Sea. How MBCGame eventually conquered all with their three musketeers. Or the parallel story from the PLUS team with Anytime, and their rise to the top only two years after being the worst team out there by far.
Then there are teams that steal. Like when KT snatched Flash when WeMade Fox was under financial stress. Especially so with SK Telecom T1 with the likes of Midas, and Bisu. Their success and victories are less meaningful because their stories can be summarized with "So we bought these guys, and some faltered because their drive was no longer there because of the high salaries, but it's okay because we also got some other guys and it worked out great for us."
SK Telecom T1 and KT are boring because they are the epitome of the financially stable teams. There are no odds stacked against them. There are no miracles. There are no superstars that come out of nowhere, only mercinaries. They are expected to do well, and often do well, and when they don't, it's okay because they can buy more players. Teams like MBCGame reached the top against all odds, but when they couln't keep their best future prospect in Bisu because of financial hardships, the miracle couldn't be sustained and now they're disbanded.
There's no uncertainty for the bigger teams, and while that may make things easier to support them, just know you're supporting the most boring teams also. A bigger trophy cabinet and fan base doesn't always mean a richer history. CJ ain't the same CJ like it used to be . Of course. Hite Sparkyz got added to the mix. I don't quite follow how that is the same as specifically recruiting players from less stable teams consistantly throughout the years. If you are talking about Luxury and Forgg they are long gone from the bw scene . Estro Action wasn't a MsL winner, WJ.CH was sold to KT and I wouldn't call WJ a LESS STABLE team . Fox folded up and their players were put on a draft and KT took in wooki and mind . I don't see what the point you are trying to get here . Most of the players kt drafted were considered to be only specialised in one section of the game and they weren't as good as the msl winners like forgg and luxury . Focusing purely on the present status of things. The current CJ Entus has Effort, Snow, Movie and Skyhigh. They were there from the start, and all play a vital role in their team. I remember Snow being hyped as the next great CJ Entus player by coach Cho, comparing him with the likes and Xellos and Savior. Movie was scolded by coach Cho when he was a no-name scrub because his low-apm games made him look like he was browsing the net instead of practicing. All these players grew with their team and their team is much richer for this. Off the top of my head, the current KT side has... who? Stats, Hoejja, and Barracks. We all know Flash was a WeMade Fox prodigy. Reach made his name as a Hanbit player. Action was known for his defiler play back when he was at Estro. KT continuously buys players, whether they are individual league winners or not (although trades of that magnitude are rarely seen in other teams). It's a huge part of why they are such a good team. Deal with it. Only a minor fraction of the team was there to start off with. Flash a WeMade prodigy!? He was on Pantech for a very short period of time and played zero televised games with them. That you would choose to so heavily associate him with that team after all these years is bizarre. I know right? I can understand the sentiment that KT hires a bunch of mercenaries because of fOrGG, luxury, action, crazy-hydra, etc but to claim Flash as anything other than KT is just silly. It's like saying Kobe Bryant isn't an Los Angeles Laker because he spent the first 5 days of his career as a member of the Charlotte Hornets. A player's legacy and a team's history is determined by what actually happened and not what could have been. It's not like Flash was a bonjwa right from the get go. He developed from a cheesy, above average terran to the most skilled player of all time under KT's watch. Maybe it would have happened under FOX but maybe not. Either way Flash is unquestionably 100% KT.
Flash was already the best player on WeMade during practice even before he made his debut. Flash already mentioned how much he improved his game as a practice partner during his time at WeMade (the likes of Hero took him under his wing). It's at WeMade where Flash finally realized his dream as a progamer, it's there where he earned the title of "Nada's protege", it's at WeMade where his parents finally realized that this kid was something special, and decided to let the kid follow his dreams.
The thing is, Pantech had just went out of business and WeMade's future was very unstable. All the other teams, out of respect, decided not to abuse the uncertain future of the WeMade players. Except for KT. They realized the kid's potential and took him away. This is no secret. It was a dirty thing to do, and there were a lot of controversy over it. There was a reason why KT went so far just to take a mere practice partner. Word had spread over how good this kid was. While to the average viewer, he may have been just another progamer, the kid had serious skills to begin with. And to dismiss his time at WeMade just like that, Flash would be the first to tell you how wrong that is. He may be a KT man through and through, but don't be so sure to look over his roots. His legacy definately did not start off at KT.
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On March 25 2012 22:00 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 20:19 red4ce wrote:On March 25 2012 18:14 J1.au wrote:On March 25 2012 17:12 Letmelose wrote:On March 25 2012 16:52 Sawamura wrote:On March 25 2012 16:47 Letmelose wrote:On March 25 2012 16:10 Sawamura wrote:On March 25 2012 15:53 Letmelose wrote:
I like teams that have history and depth. Teams with interesting stories. Teams that create great players, not steal them from less financially stable teams.
Whenever I see the CJ team, I'm reminded of the glorius GO team that had the likes of Go_Rush, Nal_Ra, Midas, ForU, and of course, Xellos. Xellos was a GO man through and through, and stuck with his team and even shared is tournament winnings. The team just oozed class. Plus, coach Cho was awesome. Throughout the years we've seen the rise of so many generations of superb players from the team.
Team 8 reminds me of the now gone POS team and PLUS teams. How July came out of nowhere into superstardom. How he played his designted 1v1 games, 2v2 games as both zerg and terran, ACE matches, and to top things of even 1v1 games as a random player, to support his team while coach Ha constructed the team from rock bottom to discover stars such as Sea. How MBCGame eventually conquered all with their three musketeers. Or the parallel story from the PLUS team with Anytime, and their rise to the top only two years after being the worst team out there by far.
Then there are teams that steal. Like when KT snatched Flash when WeMade Fox was under financial stress. Especially so with SK Telecom T1 with the likes of Midas, and Bisu. Their success and victories are less meaningful because their stories can be summarized with "So we bought these guys, and some faltered because their drive was no longer there because of the high salaries, but it's okay because we also got some other guys and it worked out great for us."
SK Telecom T1 and KT are boring because they are the epitome of the financially stable teams. There are no odds stacked against them. There are no miracles. There are no superstars that come out of nowhere, only mercinaries. They are expected to do well, and often do well, and when they don't, it's okay because they can buy more players. Teams like MBCGame reached the top against all odds, but when they couln't keep their best future prospect in Bisu because of financial hardships, the miracle couldn't be sustained and now they're disbanded.
There's no uncertainty for the bigger teams, and while that may make things easier to support them, just know you're supporting the most boring teams also. A bigger trophy cabinet and fan base doesn't always mean a richer history. CJ ain't the same CJ like it used to be . Of course. Hite Sparkyz got added to the mix. I don't quite follow how that is the same as specifically recruiting players from less stable teams consistantly throughout the years. If you are talking about Luxury and Forgg they are long gone from the bw scene . Estro Action wasn't a MsL winner, WJ.CH was sold to KT and I wouldn't call WJ a LESS STABLE team . Fox folded up and their players were put on a draft and KT took in wooki and mind . I don't see what the point you are trying to get here . Most of the players kt drafted were considered to be only specialised in one section of the game and they weren't as good as the msl winners like forgg and luxury . Focusing purely on the present status of things. The current CJ Entus has Effort, Snow, Movie and Skyhigh. They were there from the start, and all play a vital role in their team. I remember Snow being hyped as the next great CJ Entus player by coach Cho, comparing him with the likes and Xellos and Savior. Movie was scolded by coach Cho when he was a no-name scrub because his low-apm games made him look like he was browsing the net instead of practicing. All these players grew with their team and their team is much richer for this. Off the top of my head, the current KT side has... who? Stats, Hoejja, and Barracks. We all know Flash was a WeMade Fox prodigy. Reach made his name as a Hanbit player. Action was known for his defiler play back when he was at Estro. KT continuously buys players, whether they are individual league winners or not (although trades of that magnitude are rarely seen in other teams). It's a huge part of why they are such a good team. Deal with it. Only a minor fraction of the team was there to start off with. Flash a WeMade prodigy!? He was on Pantech for a very short period of time and played zero televised games with them. That you would choose to so heavily associate him with that team after all these years is bizarre. I know right? I can understand the sentiment that KT hires a bunch of mercenaries because of fOrGG, luxury, action, crazy-hydra, etc but to claim Flash as anything other than KT is just silly. It's like saying Kobe Bryant isn't an Los Angeles Laker because he spent the first 5 days of his career as a member of the Charlotte Hornets. A player's legacy and a team's history is determined by what actually happened and not what could have been. It's not like Flash was a bonjwa right from the get go. He developed from a cheesy, above average terran to the most skilled player of all time under KT's watch. Maybe it would have happened under FOX but maybe not. Either way Flash is unquestionably 100% KT. Flash was already the best player on WeMade during practice even before he made his debut. Flash already mentioned how much he improved his game as a practice partner during his time at WeMade (the likes of Hero took him under his wing). It's at WeMade where Flash finally realized his dream as a progamer, it's there where he earned the title of "Nada's protege", it's at WeMade where his parents finally realized that this kid was something special, and decided to let the kid follow his dreams. The thing is, Pantech had just went out of business and WeMade's future was very unstable. All the other teams, out of respect, decided not to abuse the uncertain future of the WeMade players. Except for KT. They realized the kid's potential and took him away. This is no secret. It was a dirty thing to do, and there were a lot of controversy over it. There was a reason why KT went so far just to take a mere practice partner. Word had spread over how good this kid was. While to the average viewer, he may have been just another progamer, the kid had serious skills to begin with. And to dismiss his time at WeMade just like that, Flash would be the first to tell you how wrong that is. He may be a KT man through and through, but don't be so sure to look over his roots. His legacy definately did not start off at KT.
Flash was already the best player on WeMade during practice even before he made his debut
Yeah if I was Fox coach if I knew that this kid had really good talent, I would have place him on the Main team instead of just being a Practice partner for Nada and friends .
The only "Nada Protege" for me was  Mind at that time he was seriously a freaking monster when he was killing everyone left and right even taking down bisu.Also if my kid wins a courage tournament and got the license to be a pro gamer of course I would have acknowledge my kid was special and would allow him to follow his dream.
For what it is worth to discuss, If KT actually played some dirty tricks to pull out Flash out from Wemade Fox . I am totally disgusted by that and I mean it despite that it only shows how much under the table tricks can do when you have the monetary power at the right time and at the right place .I will of course acknowledge that his roots are in Fox so is Mind,Baby and flash who are now still one of the top terran that are still playing actively in broodwar.
I know it may seem unfair to other teams who have fought their way to victory with their starting players like MBC and CJ formerly GO . Maybe kt is just another team which is merely in existence because company has too much money that they decided to throw it at some broodwar team for amusement and even so . I like KT alot even though if it's just a cheap shot team made by buying players from other team, even real life sports have also done things like this buying all the good players to strengthen their weak players just because they can.
But do people still support players on this " Dirty and unconscionable tactics " played out by the team managers ? Yes they do, because in the end what they like is the players and even if you call it "boring" for supporting this team. That's probably your opinion as I do enjoy supporting KT players through sweet and bitter times . Can I call my team boring ? No for me the players that are on my team are really quite good and have really high potential in their skill . Although at some times it always a 50/50 chance that they may screw up their strategy and things will go wrong and that's only going to make more excited about the possibility rather than being boring.
Supporting kt is nothing but a roller coaster and there always is a risk .
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Only thing I remember reading about Flash time on Wemade was an interview of him saying that NaDa did not influence him that much.
There's also a clear rupture between Flash pre and post bonjwa, and I think KT's coaching (or more probably a change in their coaching) has a lot to do with it.
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On March 25 2012 18:42 FuRong wrote:
Flash fans are the most delusional and defensive, thinking that he's unbeatable and always trying to find excuses for his losses or reasons why he "didn't actually lose", posting long arguments refuting claims that Flash is slumping or could possibly lose a standard game to someone who just played better.
cuz as I said... many Flash fans don't know anything about how to play BW, cuz they don't.
I apologize for the vast number of blanket statements, they help me sleep at night.
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On March 25 2012 22:25 corumjhaelen wrote:
Only thing I remember reading about Flash time on Wemade was an interview of him saying that NaDa did not influence him that much.
There's also a clear rupture between Flash pre and post bonjwa, and I think KT's coaching (or more probably a change in their coaching) has a lot to do with it.
If you intend disreguard his time when Flash wasn't by far and away the best player on the planet, yes, his time at WeMade is meaningless. However, if you are looking at Flash as a progamer, you'd be foolish to do so. That's all I'm saying. All gamers had their roots. When Jaedong first started off, he was so bad that even his coach was able defeat him, but he matured into the zerg legend he is today. When Zero started off, he was just another practice partner with a fast pair of hands. GGPlay once said to him that he would have won so much more if he only had Zero's hand speed. All these little anecdotes of how these fledgling gamers caught the eye of elder gamers and flourished as a gamer of their own right is as important as how they improved after they established themselves in the team. Some people only seem to be interested in the finished product, whereas I feel that a player's relationship with his team is much fuller with these untold, behind the scene stories of pre-debut periods, not bought from a struggling team after establishing himself within the progaming realm even if the average viewer had yet to see him on screen.
As for the words from Flash, here's are the exact words of the interview you mentioned.
Q: During your time at Pantech, you were known as "Nada's protege". Is this correct? Who do you regard as your mentor?
A: I was not at a level where I could replicate Nada's style of play. That's not to say I didn't try (laughs). So I decided to improve by myself. I was close to Hero, Firefist, and Pepe at the time. I had to attend school during day time, so they spent all night practicing with me. I improved so much playing with them. I practiced hard by myself, but I wouldn't have improved that much without them. I regard those three as my mentor. Many people say that Nada was my mentor, but to be honest that is not the case. I was young and it was difficult to approach senior gamers, but those three approached me first and helped me practice.
By the time Flash had joined KT, he had already surpassed the likes of Nada during practice hours. He proved his skills by immediately qualifying for the OGN Starleague. He would be the first to tell you that his development into a solid A teamer, hell, a Starleague contender right from the get-go, was pretty much done during his time at WeMade.
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On March 25 2012 14:22 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 14:03 Lumire wrote:
Honestly if KT didn't have flash they would have less fans then woonjin. I honestly believe this. I guess Violet's got a bit of a story to him. Action had a specific game type "imba late game, sucks at getting there" but that doesn't seem to apply much anymore anyway. Hoejja is left-handed and we can relate to him through Old Boy, so he's pretty legit. But yeah, 90% of them are there for Flash.
I started as a Flash fan when I was only watching the individual leagues before I cared about KT and PL in general, but I guess I learned to love the team as a whole watching them struggle for their first PL championship, do + Show Spoiler [this] + and win in the finals again after ending up as 3rd despite starting the season in the bottom, potentially win another one this season despite starting with a 0-3 and everyone going "lolol KT sucks without ace match and WL they won't make it," etc.. I believe not all of those 90% are Flash fans only, but they were.
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On March 25 2012 22:22 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 22:00 Letmelose wrote:On March 25 2012 20:19 red4ce wrote:On March 25 2012 18:14 J1.au wrote:On March 25 2012 17:12 Letmelose wrote:On March 25 2012 16:52 Sawamura wrote:On March 25 2012 16:47 Letmelose wrote:On March 25 2012 16:10 Sawamura wrote:On March 25 2012 15:53 Letmelose wrote:
I like teams that have history and depth. Teams with interesting stories. Teams that create great players, not steal them from less financially stable teams.
Whenever I see the CJ team, I'm reminded of the glorius GO team that had the likes of Go_Rush, Nal_Ra, Midas, ForU, and of course, Xellos. Xellos was a GO man through and through, and stuck with his team and even shared is tournament winnings. The team just oozed class. Plus, coach Cho was awesome. Throughout the years we've seen the rise of so many generations of superb players from the team.
Team 8 reminds me of the now gone POS team and PLUS teams. How July came out of nowhere into superstardom. How he played his designted 1v1 games, 2v2 games as both zerg and terran, ACE matches, and to top things of even 1v1 games as a random player, to support his team while coach Ha constructed the team from rock bottom to discover stars such as Sea. How MBCGame eventually conquered all with their three musketeers. Or the parallel story from the PLUS team with Anytime, and their rise to the top only two years after being the worst team out there by far.
Then there are teams that steal. Like when KT snatched Flash when WeMade Fox was under financial stress. Especially so with SK Telecom T1 with the likes of Midas, and Bisu. Their success and victories are less meaningful because their stories can be summarized with "So we bought these guys, and some faltered because their drive was no longer there because of the high salaries, but it's okay because we also got some other guys and it worked out great for us."
SK Telecom T1 and KT are boring because they are the epitome of the financially stable teams. There are no odds stacked against them. There are no miracles. There are no superstars that come out of nowhere, only mercinaries. They are expected to do well, and often do well, and when they don't, it's okay because they can buy more players. Teams like MBCGame reached the top against all odds, but when they couln't keep their best future prospect in Bisu because of financial hardships, the miracle couldn't be sustained and now they're disbanded.
There's no uncertainty for the bigger teams, and while that may make things easier to support them, just know you're supporting the most boring teams also. A bigger trophy cabinet and fan base doesn't always mean a richer history. CJ ain't the same CJ like it used to be . Of course. Hite Sparkyz got added to the mix. I don't quite follow how that is the same as specifically recruiting players from less stable teams consistantly throughout the years. If you are talking about Luxury and Forgg they are long gone from the bw scene . Estro Action wasn't a MsL winner, WJ.CH was sold to KT and I wouldn't call WJ a LESS STABLE team . Fox folded up and their players were put on a draft and KT took in wooki and mind . I don't see what the point you are trying to get here . Most of the players kt drafted were considered to be only specialised in one section of the game and they weren't as good as the msl winners like forgg and luxury . Focusing purely on the present status of things. The current CJ Entus has Effort, Snow, Movie and Skyhigh. They were there from the start, and all play a vital role in their team. I remember Snow being hyped as the next great CJ Entus player by coach Cho, comparing him with the likes and Xellos and Savior. Movie was scolded by coach Cho when he was a no-name scrub because his low-apm games made him look like he was browsing the net instead of practicing. All these players grew with their team and their team is much richer for this. Off the top of my head, the current KT side has... who? Stats, Hoejja, and Barracks. We all know Flash was a WeMade Fox prodigy. Reach made his name as a Hanbit player. Action was known for his defiler play back when he was at Estro. KT continuously buys players, whether they are individual league winners or not (although trades of that magnitude are rarely seen in other teams). It's a huge part of why they are such a good team. Deal with it. Only a minor fraction of the team was there to start off with. Flash a WeMade prodigy!? He was on Pantech for a very short period of time and played zero televised games with them. That you would choose to so heavily associate him with that team after all these years is bizarre. I know right? I can understand the sentiment that KT hires a bunch of mercenaries because of fOrGG, luxury, action, crazy-hydra, etc but to claim Flash as anything other than KT is just silly. It's like saying Kobe Bryant isn't an Los Angeles Laker because he spent the first 5 days of his career as a member of the Charlotte Hornets. A player's legacy and a team's history is determined by what actually happened and not what could have been. It's not like Flash was a bonjwa right from the get go. He developed from a cheesy, above average terran to the most skilled player of all time under KT's watch. Maybe it would have happened under FOX but maybe not. Either way Flash is unquestionably 100% KT. Flash was already the best player on WeMade during practice even before he made his debut. Flash already mentioned how much he improved his game as a practice partner during his time at WeMade (the likes of Hero took him under his wing). It's at WeMade where Flash finally realized his dream as a progamer, it's there where he earned the title of "Nada's protege", it's at WeMade where his parents finally realized that this kid was something special, and decided to let the kid follow his dreams. The thing is, Pantech had just went out of business and WeMade's future was very unstable. All the other teams, out of respect, decided not to abuse the uncertain future of the WeMade players. Except for KT. They realized the kid's potential and took him away. This is no secret. It was a dirty thing to do, and there were a lot of controversy over it. There was a reason why KT went so far just to take a mere practice partner. Word had spread over how good this kid was. While to the average viewer, he may have been just another progamer, the kid had serious skills to begin with. And to dismiss his time at WeMade just like that, Flash would be the first to tell you how wrong that is. He may be a KT man through and through, but don't be so sure to look over his roots. His legacy definately did not start off at KT. Show nested quote +Flash was already the best player on WeMade during practice even before he made his debut Yeah if I was Fox coach if I knew that this kid had really good talent, I would have place him on the Main team instead of just being a Practice partner for Nada and friends . The only "Nada Protege" for me was Mind at that time he was seriously a freaking monster when he was killing everyone left and right even taking down bisu.Also if my kid wins a courage tournament and got the license to be a pro gamer of course I would have acknowledge my kid was special and would allow him to follow his dream. For what it is worth to discuss, If KT actually played some dirty tricks to pull out Flash out from Wemade Fox . I am totally disgusted by that and I mean it despite that it only shows how much under the table tricks can do when you have the monetary power at the right time and at the right place .I will of course acknowledge that his roots are in Fox so is Mind,Baby and flash who are now still one of the top terran that are still playing actively in broodwar. I know it may seem unfair to other teams who have fought their way to victory with their starting players like MBC and CJ formerly GO . Maybe kt is just another team which is merely in existence because company has too much money that they decided to throw it at some broodwar team for amusement and even so . I like KT alot even though if it's just a cheap shot team made by buying players from other team, even real life sports have also done things like this buying all the good players to strengthen their weak players just because they can. But do people still support players on this " Dirty and unconscionable tactics " played out by the team managers ? Yes they do, because in the end what they like is the players and even if you call it "boring" for supporting this team. That's probably your opinion as I do enjoy supporting KT players through sweet and bitter times . Can I call my team boring ? No for me the players that are on my team are really quite good and have really high potential in their skill . Although at some times it always a 50/50 chance that they may screw up their strategy and things will go wrong and that's only going to make more excited about the possibility rather than being boring. Supporting kt is nothing but a roller coaster and there always is a risk .
Well, Flash made his legend as a KT Rolster player. And as a KT Rolster follower, it's your right to feel pride and joy over his accomplisments, after following him through the thick an thin. Same for all the other players on the team you support. Hell, there's no reason to justify why you like the team you like. Maybe you like that bubble-headed guy that shows up on every KT match. Every team has a unique story to tell, even scumbag teams like SK Telecom T1. Of course it's exciting, but every once a while, you should be prepared for some jabs over your choice of team. The asshole in me is always willing to put down an SK Telecom T1 fan whenever the opportunity presents itself. Same for KT Rolster, although to a much lesser degree. It's kind of like me hating Manchester United. Good football team? Yes. Rich history. Okay. Classy team? No, fuck them.
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On March 25 2012 10:34 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 09:49 Tru_m4n wrote:
Gonna get a lot of hate for this, since there are a lot of you here, but the most annoying fans has to be the Flash fans. This have nothing at all to do with me liking SKT1, I like most other teams as well (CJ, Khan, Team 8 and ACE), and KT used to be my favourite team back when Nal_rA were there... And they've got Reach now. It's just that I can't for the love of god understand how people can actually like Flash. There's literally nothing about him that I like. So confused. Well looking at his play, he's done every style imaginable for TvX, aside from the truly one off builds that only Hiya would do. He's been successful with just about any style you can think of. And he's had his share of win streaks and lose streaks. I don't understand why there's "nothing" about him that you like. Is it the methodical nature of his play? The fact he pulls off all in's or rushes off 1 - 2 base? SKT1 terrans have been by far the most methodical due to a proud lineage and there's plenty of fans of fantasy, oov, boxer despite the fact they've also done loads of unorthodox play off 1 - 2 base (the boxer vs yellow bunker rush finals is a good example). It's not like he's always only done 1 style during a certain period either, people called him cheesy back in 2007-2008 but even then he still had 2 - 3 other play styles vs each race and only did things that would be considered cheese 15-20% of the times. Same for when he used to open 14 CC against zerg on every map, he still only did it 20% of the time, the reputations of him being a player that only plays one style has only helped him mind game his opponents.
I'm pretty sure it's got a lot to do with him playing extremely safe and defensive most of the time. I just don't find it appealing at all. It's like, more or less every game, you know exactly what he's going to do. Maybe I'm completely wrong here, but I want to see creative play, unusual builds and unit combinations, and I don't think Flash has got that in his arsenal. I find his gameplay to be very static, it's either black or white. No such thing as grey exist. I fail to see what's so interesting about this.
But this isn't about me disliking Flash, it's the fans that annoy me. Sure, the kid is extremely skilled, but calling him a god is ridiculous. When he loses, you're guaranteed to hear something like "oh, I guess he shows some signs of being human after all", "he let the opponent win", "he's got a cold/insomnia/earwax" or whatever. It's like there's no way anyone else could beat him without there being external factors that work against Flash. That's what bothers me.
On March 25 2012 10:49 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 09:49 Tru_m4n wrote:
Gonna get a lot of hate for this, since there are a lot of you here, but the most annoying fans has to be the Flash fans. This have nothing at all to do with me liking SKT1, I like most other teams as well (CJ, Khan, Team 8 and ACE), and KT used to be my favourite team back when Nal_rA were there... And they've got Reach now. It's just that I can't for the love of god understand how people can actually like Flash. There's literally nothing about him that I like. So confused. He plays starcraft really well and it is fun to watch.
I agree that he's very good at the game, but I don't think he's fun to watch. I totally respect him for being as good as he is, but I don't like him at all.
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I just realized something from reading this thread.
Fanboyism is a serious business here at TL. From the Emo STX fans to the Defensive\Serious KT fans to the Offensive T1 fans to the Noisy CJ and Khan Fans to JD fans who awaits his Phoenix personification in the up coming OSL.
+ Show Spoiler [P.S.] ++ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +P.S. I refer to 'fans' as the majority of the fans of respective teams and not really referring to every single one. So,, try to be less serious about your fanboyism
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On March 25 2012 23:39 Tru_m4n wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 10:34 Caihead wrote:On March 25 2012 09:49 Tru_m4n wrote:
Gonna get a lot of hate for this, since there are a lot of you here, but the most annoying fans has to be the Flash fans. This have nothing at all to do with me liking SKT1, I like most other teams as well (CJ, Khan, Team 8 and ACE), and KT used to be my favourite team back when Nal_rA were there... And they've got Reach now. It's just that I can't for the love of god understand how people can actually like Flash. There's literally nothing about him that I like. So confused. Well looking at his play, he's done every style imaginable for TvX, aside from the truly one off builds that only Hiya would do. He's been successful with just about any style you can think of. And he's had his share of win streaks and lose streaks. I don't understand why there's "nothing" about him that you like. Is it the methodical nature of his play? The fact he pulls off all in's or rushes off 1 - 2 base? SKT1 terrans have been by far the most methodical due to a proud lineage and there's plenty of fans of fantasy, oov, boxer despite the fact they've also done loads of unorthodox play off 1 - 2 base (the boxer vs yellow bunker rush finals is a good example). It's not like he's always only done 1 style during a certain period either, people called him cheesy back in 2007-2008 but even then he still had 2 - 3 other play styles vs each race and only did things that would be considered cheese 15-20% of the times. Same for when he used to open 14 CC against zerg on every map, he still only did it 20% of the time, the reputations of him being a player that only plays one style has only helped him mind game his opponents. I'm pretty sure it's got a lot to do with him playing extremely safe and defensive most of the time. I just don't find it appealing at all. It's like, more or less every game, you know exactly what he's going to do. Maybe I'm completely wrong here, but I want to see creative play, unusual builds and unit combinations, and I don't think Flash has got that in his arsenal. I find his gameplay to be very static, it's either black or white. No such thing as grey exist. I fail to see what's so interesting about this. But this isn't about me disliking Flash, it's the fans that annoy me. Sure, the kid is extremely skilled, but calling him a god is ridiculous. When he loses, you're guaranteed to hear something like "oh, I guess he shows some signs of being human after all", "he let the opponent win", "he's got a cold/insomnia/earwax" or whatever. It's like there's no way anyone else could beat him without there being external factors that work against Flash. That's what bothers me. Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 10:49 TwoToneTerran wrote:On March 25 2012 09:49 Tru_m4n wrote:
Gonna get a lot of hate for this, since there are a lot of you here, but the most annoying fans has to be the Flash fans. This have nothing at all to do with me liking SKT1, I like most other teams as well (CJ, Khan, Team 8 and ACE), and KT used to be my favourite team back when Nal_rA were there... And they've got Reach now. It's just that I can't for the love of god understand how people can actually like Flash. There's literally nothing about him that I like. So confused. He plays starcraft really well and it is fun to watch. I agree that he's very good at the game, but I don't think he's fun to watch. I totally respect him for being as good as he is, but I don't like him at all.
Basically being a fan of top players is one of the best thing the scene can ask for .If you recall tiger wood before all the shenanigans and back stab he was doing he was really one hell of a player and if you were to go to a match play with tiger wood . The chances of you winning are pretty slim and if you are a fan of tiger wood you will be chanting "Tiger is unbeatable , He is the best ! " . I know I would when I was a kid he was the guy I look to in terms of motivation to get better at the game .
Same thing here applies to Flash, when you are a leading player in a competitive sport like broodwar or any game you will definitely have fans who maybe are fanatical enough to assume that he is god and when he loses it's also logical enough to say he is not feeling well and all the other excuses . From a terran player perspective, Flash has definitely been one of the most studied replays for all new aspiring terran players . Reason number 1 his play is safe , Reason number two it gives you a feeling what you can do and you can't , Reason number 3 he is also one of the best player who is dominating the scene for quite a long time .
If you take into account stork interview with toss girl when he mention that if you take out flash out of the equation in terms of terran doing well . It will make terran look pretty weak, Flash is phenomenal player and I am definitely as a terran player will support him but that doesn't mean I will only support him and not my Fellow KT players who are also one of my favourite players . I think it's all right to hate him, not everyone has the same taste for the food their eat .
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EPT![[image loading]](http://64.19.142.11/i.imgur.com/haQIQ.jpg)
