Starcraft 2 is a community game, your ladder position means nothing unless there are other people on it and when you play a match there is another gamer there, it's kind of the point. As such, Starcraft will always be as strong or as weak as it's community.
I start every game with the following: "gl hf ♥", why do I do it? Because it reminds me it's just a game, that I'm just here to have fun. For me it's a great way to reduce stress and get into the game in a good mood. Most of the time I get good nature replies, however, I also get a lot of gay bashing responses. For wishing people a good game.
Now, we all know these response, and their likes, and how common they are ( especially if you're winning ). And I would ask you to consider, starcraft is about playing with other people, it's you and another gamer playing together. Yes, you're playing a competitive game. Yes, you're trying to beat the other guy. But you're both part of the same community, and in the end of the day, your'e playing together.
In the latest researches gay people are apparently about five percent of the population, any population. That means that in your division about five people are gay, that from the about 250 players in GSL history, about 15 are gay, and they deserve your respect. They are as much a part of our community as any other gamer and deserve no different treatment then any other player.
So what? you say. It's just harmless name calling, and that guy was really a !@#$%^ for DT rushing me like that, -*!@ing #$%^!.....sounds familiar?
Here's the problem, behind your screen, the network, the server, the network again into some other computer in another nation or maybe just across the street there is another person. Who you just hurt. Just another hit in a life with more then a few, and he just wanted to play a game online, and have some fun. And then we have this:
"four times more likely to attempt suicide". Four times as likely. Stop it guys. You're a community, act like one. Cause right now, I don't want to play with you guys.
- What can we do? -
Are you a recognized pro-gamer? Are you gay? Are you willing to go public about your sexuality?
If the answer to these questions are yes then I believe you should. The community needs to see that some if it's most praised players are gay. And that gay isn't synonymous with bad or cheese for some odd reason. You won't convince everyone, and whoever is brave enough to do this will certainly get at least some flak. But you just might save a life.
*Thanks to the editors for fixing the title.
On October 27 2011 20:32 Oiseaux wrote: Even if the person using the word(s) doesn't have the intent to be homophobic per se, the intent is still meant to be derogatory. The act of using the the insult is then what ultimately matters; a group of people are being labeled as people that the person using the insults feels are somehow inferior or, to make a stretch, lesser beings. If the intent behind the insult isn't homophobic, then why is it necessary to refer to a stream cheater, stream sniper, cheeser etc. as a fag or gay? Simply put, it's because to be seen as belonging to this group is still an insult, therefore it's homophobic.
And honestly, to all the people that are saying they aren't meaning to be homophobic and that people just need to grow thicker skin, why are you so invested in using this group as an insult? There are plenty of words that can be used to express an annoyance with someone that doesn't insult a group of people, so why do you feel the need to attach yourself to this one? There is a very long history (and just as important, a continuing history) of homophobia behind using gay and fag as an insult that it currently not possible to detach the words from that history.
If anything, I would hope the gaming community would want to remove stuff like this from their lexicon if for any reason than to give themselves legitimacy. The burden is on us to prove to the world that esports is something to be taken seriously and not just some teenagers past time. However if the community is still hanging on to this attitude, then we'll be seen as nothing more than just juvenile teenagers raging over a game. Yes, I know this a problem that exists outside of gaming as well, but we don't have the developed legitimacy and it's our job to rise above it.
Bogaert AF (September 2004). "The prevalence of male homosexuality.... + Show Spoiler +
Bogaert AF (September 2004). "The prevalence of male homosexuality: the effect of fraternal birth order and variations in family size". Journal of Theoretical Biology 230 (1): 33–7. doi:10.1016/j.jtbi.2004.04.035. PMID 15275997. Bogaert argues that: "The prevalence of male homosexuality is debated. One widely reported early estimate was 10% (e.g., Marmor, 1980; Voeller, 1990). Some recent data provided support for this estimate (Bagley and Tremblay, 1998), but most recent large national samples suggest that the prevalence of male homosexuality in modern western societies, including the United States, is lower than this early estimate (e.g., 1–2% in Billy et al., 1993; 2–3% in Laumann et al., 1994; 6% in Sell et al., 1995; 1–3% in Wellings et al., 1994). It is of note, however, that homosexuality is defined in different ways in these studies. For example, some use same-sex behavior and not same-sex attraction as the operational definition of homosexuality (e.g., Billy et al., 1993); many sex researchers (e.g., Bailey et al., 2000; Bogaert, 2003; Money, 1988; Zucker and Bradley, 1995) now emphasize attraction over overt behavior in conceptualizing sexual orientation." (p. 33) Also: "...the prevalence of male homosexuality (in particular, same-sex attraction) varies over time and across societies (and hence is a "moving target") in part because of two effects: (1) variations in fertility rate or family size; and (2) the fraternal birth order effect. Thus, even if accurately measured in one country at one time, the rate of male homosexuality is subject to change and is not generalizable over time or across societies." (p. 33)
i don't think telling people who are prone to type 'go kill urself' on the internet that they should stop because it might make someone depressed enough to commit suicide is the right approach
roflmao "someone just got hurt"... whenever someone shouts at me i just have to laugh, cause i know exactly how he feels in the moment he loses. How can someone be hurt over stuff like that. Your just takeing this way to serious.
I don't know what's going on here but I'd like to add that I also start every game with a similar thing (GF HL BRO ♥) the usual response is "wtf how do you type that? <3 <3 <3"
I'm picturing progamers drawing sticks to see who has to come out of the closet for ESPORTS :D
I understand your point, but it's already discussed elsewhere and your assumption that everyone's sexual orientation should be used to help other people and you are making them guilty if they don't is insulting.
In the latest researches gay people are apparently about five percent of the population, any population. That means that in your division five people are gay, that from the about 250 players in GSL history, about 15 are gay, and they deserve your respect.
Ughh, Sorry but that's wrong lol. Nothing against gay people but don't spout rubbish as if it's fact
Honestly, people - whoever they are - shouldn't fret over what is said on the internet. Those who will "gay-bash" will exsit anywhere everywhere. Keep doing your "glhf <3" and when they say something retarded, just say "Spread the love bro <3" and watch them getting mad at you not getting mad.
These kinds of stuff - these trolls - are only succeful if you are affected by them.
I've never really understood. Why is it hurting to be called gay, if you are gay. It's like someone saying, you are a nerd playing sc2. So ? Anyway, it's not sc2 related, more like gaming related or even young population related. I've got gay friends who are totally ok with this kind of silly "jokes". Because they consider it as such. Imo, you should just assume yourself.
A year old, different address of similar topic. I believe a new thread is justified.
A year old but still alive on kicking thread (apparently). Perfect thread for your demands, but if you want to talk this in general, then it might not be the best thread to start with.
In reality, you're the problem IcemanAsi. If you focused on just playing the game instead of making stupid hearts to incite anger in prepubescent homophobic children the E-SPORTS world might just be a better place.
On October 27 2011 19:09 Zaphid wrote: I'm picturing progamers drawing sticks to see who has to come out of the closet for ESPORTS :D
I understand your point, but it's already discussed elsewhere and your assumption that everyone's sexual orientation should be used to help other people and you are making them guilty if they don't is insulting.
I'm definitely not saying that gay gamers HAVE to come out. I am saying that if a famous pro-gamer is WILLING to come out, it would possibly benefit some people.
the reason why you might get gay bashing at the start of the game is probably not that you wish him good luck and have fun but that you do it with a heart. true story
I think it's better to learn how to deal with it in a faceless enviornment like the internet that to be exposed to this type of behavior in real life. Bullying is serious and you have to deal with it, because the bullys never stop.
On October 27 2011 19:13 Rekrul wrote: In reality, you're the problem IcemanAsi. If you focused on just playing the game instead of making stupid hearts to incite anger in prepubescent homophobic children the E-SPORTS world might just be a better place.
Agreed that the problem is on IcemanAsi, disagreed about the hearts. IMO we should spread more hearts over the world, and make it a better place.
And those who hate/rage on it should just be ignored.
On October 27 2011 19:01 IcemanAsi wrote: Starcraft 2 is a community game, your ladder position means nothing unless there are other people on it and when you play a match there is another gamer there, it's kind of the point. As such, Starcraft will always be as strong or as weak as it's community.
I start every game with the following: "gl hf ♥", why do I do it? Because it reminds me it's just a game, that I'm just here to have fun. For me it's a great way to reduce stress and get into the game in a good mood. Most of the time I get good nature replies, however, I also get a lot of gay bashing responses. For wishing people a good game.
Now, we all know these response, and their likes, and how common they are ( especially if you're winning ). And I would ask you to consider, starcraft is about playing with other people, it's you and another gamer playing together. Yes, you're playing a competitive game. Yes, you're trying to beat the other guy. But you're both part of the same community, and in the end of the day, your'e playing together.
In the latest researches gay people are apparently about five percent of the population, any population. That means that in your division five people are gay, that from the about 250 players in GSL history, about 15 are gay, and they deserve your respect. They are as much a part of our community as any other gamer and deserve no different treatment then any other player.
So what? you say. It's just harmless name calling, and that guy was really a !@#$%^ for DT rushing me like that, -*!@ing #$%^!.....sounds familiar?
Here's the problem, behind your screen, the network, the server, the network again into some other computer in another nation or maybe just across the street there is another person. Who you just hurt. Just another hit in a life with more then a few, and he just wanted to play a game online, and have some fun. And then we have this:
"four times more likely to attempt suicide". Four times as likely. Stop it guys. You're a community, act like one. Cause right now, I don't want to play with you guys.
- What can we do? -
Are you a recognized pro-gamer? Are you gay? Are you willing to go public about your sexuality?
If the answer to these questions are yes then I believe you should. The community needs to see that some if it's most praised players are gay. And that gay isn't synonymous with bad or cheese for some odd reason. You won't convince everyone, and whoever is brave enough to do this will certainly get at least some flak. But you just might save a life.
If they don't actually know you're gay and even if they're using the words "fag" or "faggot" they're still not gay bashing because they do not know you're gay. In the end even if every single admired pro gamers was LGBT as you put it there would still be gay bashers amongst those who play online. It is the nature of the beat and there is nothing you can really do to stop them. When faced with adversity in real life you have two options. Confront it or ignore it. Online you can only choose the latter which I suggest you do. I don't condone the gay bashing online, or anywhere, but these people are masked by the internet. Instead just make sure that you have a good time and ignore the rest.
On October 27 2011 19:12 Za7oX wrote: Try not to take what 13year old's say over the interwebs too seriously
Especially on NA.
♥
Lol you Ausies are so much better. Didn't you guys have a massive riot over the African population in your country in like 2005? I can't remember when the last massive public outburst the US had about a specific group. And I mean massive movement, not a KKK or Neo-Nazi rally or the 100 million times a day some kid says "fag" on xbox.
I think most people understand that when someone says: !@#$%^ for DT rushing me like that, -*!@ing #$%^!
They understand that they brought on that rage, and that often that person is having a bad day, on a losing streak etc. In fact a lot of people troll others to incite this rage. Words said over the internet carry little weight, if someone insults or curses you say GG and the next time you meet them say glhf and proxy hatch their main :D
I've had a lot of people rage at me on the ladder, some you can talk to so they understand why they lost etc (in a good way, not you patronising them) others just spam mindless dribble like ROFL N00b all day. This sort of bashing happens to everyone regardless of who they are, how they play or what they do in the real world
Basically my point is that yes there are some people who troll and bash on others but it happens to everyone at some point, not just the gays, and you've just got to learn to deal with it. Alot of people have things going on in their life and getting insults thrown at you over a video game obviously doesn't help, but it's the same in real life, some people cope better then others
Edit: I like that the title isn't in ALL CAPS RAGE anymore
On October 27 2011 19:13 Rekrul wrote: In reality, you're the problem IcemanAsi. If you focused on just playing the game instead of making stupid hearts to incite anger in prepubescent homophobic children the E-SPORTS world might just be a better place.
Why are you so correct all the time Rekrul? At least let the awesome posting be left to the foreign scene
I thought the whole point of raging at someone was to hurt them. So if I call someone gay and they actually turn out to be that then I'd call that a success.
On October 27 2011 19:16 NoobSkills wrote: If they don't actually know you're gay and even if they're using the words "fag" or "faggot" they're still not gay bashing because they do not know you're gay.
so I can call people niggers but it's not racist because I don't know for sure if they're black? hilarious
mmmm its funny if you are called dude etc even if your nick screams girl inside. And the reactions afterwards are also funny. I could feel really insulted that people don't think a girl can play sc2, but its just to funny. Anyway if you have problems that people don't like your heart and feel envious because they can't make it, don't make it. you could write gl hf alt3. And every community has their trolls nowadays, and hundreds of years of a phobia leave some words as insults in everybody minds. And lets face it not every group take insults as a trophy like a true nerd does :p.
On October 27 2011 19:01 IcemanAsi wrote: Starcraft 2 is a community game, your ladder position means nothing unless there are other people on it and when you play a match there is another gamer there, it's kind of the point. As such, Starcraft will always be as strong or as weak as it's community.
I start every game with the following: "gl hf ♥", why do I do it? Because it reminds me it's just a game, that I'm just here to have fun. For me it's a great way to reduce stress and get into the game in a good mood. Most of the time I get good nature replies, however, I also get a lot of gay bashing responses. For wishing people a good game.
Now, we all know these response, and their likes, and how common they are ( especially if you're winning ). And I would ask you to consider, starcraft is about playing with other people, it's you and another gamer playing together. Yes, you're playing a competitive game. Yes, you're trying to beat the other guy. But you're both part of the same community, and in the end of the day, your'e playing together.
In the latest researches gay people are apparently about five percent of the population, any population. That means that in your division five people are gay, that from the about 250 players in GSL history, about 15 are gay, and they deserve your respect. They are as much a part of our community as any other gamer and deserve no different treatment then any other player.
So what? you say. It's just harmless name calling, and that guy was really a !@#$%^ for DT rushing me like that, -*!@ing #$%^!.....sounds familiar?
Here's the problem, behind your screen, the network, the server, the network again into some other computer in another nation or maybe just across the street there is another person. Who you just hurt. Just another hit in a life with more then a few, and he just wanted to play a game online, and have some fun. And then we have this:
"four times more likely to attempt suicide". Four times as likely. Stop it guys. You're a community, act like one. Cause right now, I don't want to play with you guys.
- What can we do? -
Are you a recognized pro-gamer? Are you gay? Are you willing to go public about your sexuality?
If the answer to these questions are yes then I believe you should. The community needs to see that some if it's most praised players are gay. And that gay isn't synonymous with bad or cheese for some odd reason. You won't convince everyone, and whoever is brave enough to do this will certainly get at least some flak. But you just might save a life.
If they don't actually know you're gay and even if they're using the words "fag" or "faggot" they're still not gay bashing because they do not know you're gay. In the end even if every single admired pro gamers was LGBT as you put it there would still be gay bashers amongst those who play online. It is the nature of the beat and there is nothing you can really do to stop them. When faced with adversity in real life you have two options. Confront it or ignore it. Online you can only choose the latter which I suggest you do. I don't condone the gay bashing online, or anywhere, but these people are masked by the internet. Instead just make sure that you have a good time and ignore the rest.
On October 27 2011 19:12 Za7oX wrote: Try not to take what 13year old's say over the interwebs too seriously
Especially on NA.
♥
Lol you Ausies are so much better. Didn't you guys have a massive riot over the African population in your country in like 2005? I can't remember when the last massive public outburst the US had about a specific group. And I mean massive movement, not a KKK or Neo-Nazi rally or the 100 million times a day some kid says "fag" on xbox.
wow lol. Just wow.
I'm talking about stupid 13 year old BM, not racism. Not sure how you connected the Cronulla riots to kids saying "get out fag" but good job man
1) You're telling a community that says a lot worse to stop calling people gay. Alright, good luck with that.
2) Gay bullying is horrible, and the amount of people who kill themselves because of the amount of bullying they get for simply being themselves is terrifying. However, I seriously doubt that someone is going to kill themselves because they were called gay or a fag on battle.net. That's not cyber-bullying, that's someone being a rather shitty, uncreative troll.
3) It's Battle.net. You're lucky you weren't accused of being a pedophile for playing Terran.
If I tell someone that he's a faggot it doesen't mean I am telling him he likes kissing and having intercourse with males. People read too much into words, we are not in politics... it's pretty much the same as saying "that strat was gay", it's a way of explaining a concept
I wonder... Where are all these "pls be politically correct"-people come from?
When I remember my average day in school there were probably more insults flying around than in all the SC2 games I played combined.... Seriously, did you ran home to mommy everytime someone insulted you in school?...
If you guys wouldn't behave like little girls no one would call you gay. Except when you use DT's or Banshee's... But then insulting you is justified anyway .
3) It's Battle.net. You're lucky you weren't accused of being a pedophile for playing Terran.
On October 27 2011 19:33 ManaO wrote: If I tell someone that he's a faggot it doesen't mean I am telling him he likes kissing and having intercourse with males. People read too much into words, we are not in politics... it's pretty much the same as saying "that strat was gay", it's a way of explaining a concept
it still perpetuates gay bashing, no matter the intent
Unfortunately intolerance is not just confined to the SC2 community.
It is a world wide problem that will probably never go away.
Anonymity just makes it easier for these uneducated uncultured simpletons to spread their rage and hate.
Look at professional football (not american) some player is going through an investigation of racism at the moment over here and these guys are the best in the world at what they do.
It's not gay bashing. The words are used in the wrong context, like 99.9% of all insults online.
Basically the same with some things that aren't even insulting.
If someone calls you a fag, he's not referring to your sexuality, he's insulting you for using a cheap tactic. Would you feel better if he said you're an asshole for DT rushing instead of a fag?
People online use inappropriate words for a lot of situations. Why do people refer to "raping someone" when talking about beating someone in this game? They don't even mean harm with that and still it's much more inappropriate than saying someone is a fag.
On October 27 2011 19:33 ManaO wrote: If I tell someone that he's a faggot it doesen't mean I am telling him he likes kissing and having intercourse with males. People read too much into words, we are not in politics... it's pretty much the same as saying "that strat was gay", it's a way of explaining a concept
Seeing as You are from Italy, would You feel happy if the phrase would commonly be used as "Man this start is so Italian, l2p" ? The issue is with using a name for a group of people as something bad, wrong and generally derogatory. Why not just say "This strat is fail", or "This strat sucks" ?. Little things.
It's not even about political correctness, couldn't care less about it, it's about maturity and at least minimal manners. Makes it more enjoyable for everyone involved.
On October 27 2011 19:33 ManaO wrote: If I tell someone that he's a faggot it doesen't mean I am telling him he likes kissing and having intercourse with males. People read too much into words, we are not in politics... it's pretty much the same as saying "that strat was gay", it's a way of explaining a concept
it still perpetuates gay bashing, no matter the intent
no it doesnt. the word gay didnt always mean homosexual, you cant stand by it now and declare you have decided its 1 and only meaning forever. stop looking for a reason to act hurt or offended. people say rude things to each other constantly over the internet, its not gay bashing.
the reason the op gets called a fag is probably the heart that he writes for no reason after the normal customary remarks. based on the fact that apparently we are taking everything said over the internet as literal, he is saying he loves me, therefore he is a sexual predator looking for gay sex over the internet, oh he isnt? well nevermind then.
On October 27 2011 19:36 Velr wrote: I wonder... Where are all these "pls be politically correct"-people come from?
When I remember my average day in school there were probably more insults flying around than in all the SC2 games I played combined.... Seriously, did you ran home to mommy everytime someone insulted you in school?...
If you guys wouldn't behave like little girls no one would call you gay. Except when you use DT's or Banshee's... But then insulting you is justified anyway .
Wow man, if I was the OP, I'd be so insulted. Why bother saying stuff like that?
I still don't get why it's wrong for people to swear. Don't get me wrong, I am against homophobia. I actually have a lot of gay friends myself that I am perfectly comfortable around. They've never been upset at me for using the word gay in a derogatory manner. Why should anyone? This is something that goes on in society. If you tell someone they're fat it's a bad thing but if you tell someone they're skinny it's a good thing ?? In both cases all you're doing is describing a person/ It's just people tend to associate laziness and binge eating and generally disgusting stuff with fat people. It's also a bit true.
You're making a big deal out of something that's no way meant in a disrespectful way for gays. Let it go
On October 27 2011 19:36 Velr wrote: I wonder... Where are all these "pls be politically correct"-people come from?
When I remember my average day in school there were probably more insults flying around than in all the SC2 games I played combined.... Seriously, did you ran home to mommy everytime someone insulted you in school?...
If you guys wouldn't behave like little girls no one would call you gay. Except when you use DT's or Banshee's... But then insulting you is justified anyway .
Wow man, if I was the OP, I'd be so insulted. Why bother saying stuff like that?
Real life isn't always nice and fluffy. If hes insulted by everything he should never walk out of the safety of his shell or whatever.
First the Swarm Hostophobia thread and now this, what's happening to the community lol.
Please stop taking everything so literal. Those statistics of yours are complete bullshit too, 5 ppl in each division are gay? Did you know that gay covers women too? I'd be surprised if each division had 1 gay person in average.
Someone mentioned like "wow that's so italian" on a page back, honestly I wouldn't give a fuck if someone called a tactic "swedish". Swedish have been looked at quite negatively from a big part of the WoW players for a long time and I have never even been close to take offense from that, why would I? My country doesn't define me, neither does your sexuality.
If I call someone a fag on ladder I'm not actually saying that the person is homosexual.
And if you think the internet has alot of insults, try a day in school. More insults are thrown around there than in Starcraft 2, that's for sure. Maybe we should never walk outside again? That'd reduce the amount of suicides...
If someone commits suicide the reason of that is NOT EVEN CLOSE to Starcraft 2 insults, sorry. The person would have done it for some other stupid reason, even if he didn't get called a fag in a random ladder game
Words change meaning over time , gay used to mean happy, then it changed to homosexuals.. In the gaming context it probably refers to a person that is cheesy/immature/abusing imbalances/trolling. So stup being such a pussy ( no offence to all cats on the planet :> )
Like every person on this planet, you should be able to withstand some pointless bashing (negative critique). No one gets through life without being sweared at at least once, and when it happens it's best to just be prepared for it, no matter your religion, political view or sexual nature.
Sure, I got bullied like hell for four years in high school, but one day I just realised: It's all just stupid people that give no thought into what they say, have no objective view on who I am - so why would I care? From that moment on, I became the more popular guy in the whole school and I lived with a great feeling of self-esteem.
What does this teach us? Some bashing shapes a person better prepared for the society, even unto it's deepest, ugliest nature. I never bash online, I always do my gl hf, gg and well played if they really did play well, but I also don't care about people that do bash. They are idiots, it's their problem - if anyone feels offended by random person #32425 talking to them online and commits suicide of it, I don't think random person is to blame, the character of that person would have perished in society eventually in another way. Call me harsh, that's just how it is. Life isn't my little pony or hello kitty, especially not in a competitive online environment where testosterone is prone to shout random insults.
On October 27 2011 19:33 ManaO wrote: If I tell someone that he's a faggot it doesen't mean I am telling him he likes kissing and having intercourse with males. People read too much into words, we are not in politics... it's pretty much the same as saying "that strat was gay", it's a way of explaining a concept
Seeing as You are from Italy, would You feel happy if the phrase would commonly be used as "Man this start is so Italian, l2p" ? The issue is with using a name for a group of people as something bad, wrong and generally derogatory. Why not just say "This strat is fail", or "This strat sucks" ?. Little things.
It's not even about political correctness, couldn't care less about it, it's about maturity and at least minimal manners. Makes it more enjoyable for everyone involved.
We italians are used to it, like germany before the world cup 2006 semifinals... kept calling us Spaghetti, Pizza and Mandolino... GUESS WHO LAUGHED LAST THO :D
You cannot stop stuff like this from happening in game, it's been around for years. If you are seriously offended by what people say in game then you're just going to have to deal with it.
i don't think telling people who are prone to type 'go kill urself' on the internet that they should stop because it might make someone depressed enough to commit suicide is the right approach
♥
It could honestly work. People who type things like that often don't consider that there could be consequences of their words, and can change their minds if they get convinced otherwise.
On October 27 2011 19:05 justjuice wrote: pretty ironic that your from israel ;x + Show Spoiler +
is that racist?
I don't get why it is ironic?
Israel is the only country in the middle east with gay rights; it is the only place in the middle east where human rights are afforded to homosexuals - so please, go on?
Basically don't be a dick to people because your actions can really effect people.
I don't approve gay bashing but I would find it annoying if someone added a <3 with the gl hf. It feels like you're inviting the other person to get a gay atitude or it feels like you are looking for other gays. Since you don't know the other person when you are chatting on the internet, you must assume he/she is straight so don't start acting gay. Maybe I shouldn't be bothered with it but at the very least I would lose interest in any sort of conversation.
I'm not saying I dislike gay people, I only dislike it when they talk to me as if I am gay.
Man up. This is the real world. Some people don't give a shit what your values are and chances are their values are different from yours. Don't expect people to share the same belief system as you and don't try to force yours on other people either.
i don't think telling people who are prone to type 'go kill urself' on the internet that they should stop because it might make someone depressed enough to commit suicide is the right approach
Telling someone something like, go kill yourself in an online game is, to me, something that happens on a daily basis whether i'm doing it or someone is saying it to me.
Your statistics are incorrect. You say 5% of our population is gay but then 100% of the gay population would have to play starcraft for 5 people in our division to be gay, which is not true.
On October 27 2011 20:00 tVoLT wrote: Your statistics are incorrect. You say 5% of our population is gay but then 100% of the gay population would have to play starcraft for 5 people in our division to be gay, which is not true.
On October 27 2011 19:33 ManaO wrote: If I tell someone that he's a faggot it doesen't mean I am telling him he likes kissing and having intercourse with males. People read too much into words, we are not in politics... it's pretty much the same as saying "that strat was gay", it's a way of explaining a concept
it still perpetuates gay bashing, no matter the intent
no it doesnt. the word gay didnt always mean homosexual, you cant stand by it now and declare you have decided its 1 and only meaning forever. stop looking for a reason to act hurt or offended. people say rude things to each other constantly over the internet, its not gay bashing.
the reason the op gets called a fag is probably the heart that he writes for no reason after the normal customary remarks. based on the fact that apparently we are taking everything said over the internet as literal, he is saying he loves me, therefore he is a sexual predator looking for gay sex over the internet, oh he isnt? well nevermind then.
so you're saying that constantly using words like faggot and gay in derogatory fashion is not perpetuating gay bashing? Using the words like that constantly adds negativity to them and ultimately shames gay people
On October 27 2011 20:00 tVoLT wrote: Your statistics are incorrect. You say 5% of our population is gay but then 100% of the gay population would have to play starcraft for 5 people in our division to be gay, which is not true.
shouldnt it be like, that 100% of the population is playing sc2 aswell? just saying...
and about the offensive language people use ingame, i dont mind it al all. I think it's rather funny when people freak out when i use a all in, or some kind of stupid tactic. I mean, they are probably raging @ home aswell, which makes me laugh i did that to him. Even more reason to throw out a cheese now and then xD
i've never been offended in-game or whatever, i guess they just need some attention or something....
On October 27 2011 20:00 tVoLT wrote: Your statistics are incorrect. You say 5% of our population is gay but then 100% of the gay population would have to play starcraft for 5 people in our division to be gay, which is not true.
Haha gotta love bad math. No, if 5% of our population were gay and 5% of people playing SC2 were gay, it'd just mean that the same ratio between gay SC2 players/gay people overall vs straight SC2 players/straight people overall(or to simplify it'd indicate that sexual orientation has no effect on if you play sc2 or not).
In any case, people have to be able to read the tone of the person rather than the words used. I mean I can say to Select "fuck you are a beast", should he be offended? I've never really understood why people look so much into the meanings of words used, compared to looking at the tone of the person using them. Fuck is a word that has like 500 diffrent meanings, yet in certain places of the word, the word is always looked down upon, no matter if it's being used in a "positive way".
(What im saying is you shouldn't be offended by the words he's using, but rather the tone he's using)
2.8% of the world population is Brazilian. So out of 250 GSL players, 7 are Brazilian! GO BRAZIL!
You can't change how everyone in the community acts. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people saying those 'words' don't really think about gay people when they use it.
On October 27 2011 19:06 Inori wrote: So when I say "You fight like a girl", I'm bashing not the way you fight, but all the girls on the planet?
You're thinking way to much into it.
Hmm, yes, you are. It's a sexist statement that demeans women. I know girls who can kick most guys asses without breaking a sweat.
This is LOL worthy. What people advocate is taking out any generalizations at all entirely in the name of feelings.
I hate gay bashing as much as the next guy, but you're asking a bunch of hardened internet nerds to be nice to a particular group of people because they have sensitive feelings. You've lost before you even made this thread, and that's not even considering the validity of your argument, which I question.
Why do all these threads need to be made? Life isn't fair.
On October 27 2011 19:01 IcemanAsi wrote: In the latest researches gay people are apparently about five percent of the population, any population. That means that in your division about five people are gay, that from the about 250 players in GSL history, about 15 are gay, and they deserve your respect.
Lot of words used by people hurt others, granted. People shouldn't be using those words and I'm not going to argue how big that list is. Condescending words about gays/prostitutes/women/young people/old people/people from coming from [insert country of your choice here] and the list goes on.
However if you are going to get your point out there and make a serious post with statements like what the latest researches say you should include sources.
When I say "faggot" I am not gay bashing. If someone is being a "faggot" I call them a "faggot", "faggot" originated as a general insult and is generally used as such unless you want to argue semantics.
There is a lot of trolling and hate on the internet. Just ignore it and move on. If everyone made a thread about being called a name then team liquid would get flooded.
I'm not saying that gay bashing / name calling / BM is ok, im just saying that you need to not take things you hear to heart and just ignore it amd stop making a big deal out of nothing.
It's the internet... People say those kind of things because they can get away with it. If you let it get to you it's your fault. The type of people that talk shit on the internet are the same people who would rather die than make eye contact in public. They are the guys who complain about Megan Fox's thumbs even though they have never seen a real girl naked. If you need to feel some acceptance from those people, then you should take a look at yourself.
On October 27 2011 19:01 IcemanAsi wrote: In the latest researches gay people are apparently about five percent of the population, any population. That means that in your division about five people are gay, that from the about 250 players in GSL history, about 15 are gay, and they deserve your respect. They are as much a part of our community as any other gamer and deserve no different treatment then any other player.
It is known that women are about fifty percent of the population, any population. That means that in your division about fifty people are women, that from the about 250 players in GSL history, about 125 are women, and they deserve your respect. They are as much a part of our community as any other gamer and deserve no different treatment then any other player.
The conclusion we can draw from this is that it is a lot of cross dressing going on in GSL.
I'm surprised anyone actually think homosexuals are misstreated in SC2. Sexual preferences doesn't matter much when playing or communicating through computers. I think you are making this a bigger problem than it is with a thread like this.
you understand that they often call you "Fu.... Gay Bi..." etc not cause of the homsoexuality but using it as flame as "mot.....er" its nothing vs gay players ^^
also i dont think gay players should post it when they are pro cause i really dont care and i think so thinks the most players
i dont care your sexual behaviour i dont wanna know what you do with who and i think most of the sc2 players dont read papers like "daily sun" to know wich celebrity have sex with with just cause we really dont care
and that is GREAT cause it means its about the SKILL and the CHARACTER of the players what intrest us, what fazinate us, not their personal and intim things and i think they should stay personal
thats what i found the most exiting thing in sc always, having a gay player in the team, alot know it and really no one care or feel bad, thats really equal opportunities.
you can be stupid if you gay hetero retard or without feeds, if you react in sc2 as an idiot, the players will flame you just because of your personality
we are in 2011 gayness at least in EU is so normal (ps: i live next cologne perhaps its cause of that i think so xD)
if people stop calling other people they are angry at and/or don't like 'faggot' or 'faggots,' then they'll use another label, socially demeaning by definition or not, in a demeaning tone. it already happens. calling someone a bitch, autistic, fat, virgin, neckbeard, etc. racial slurs get used plenty, too, and we are far more sensitive to those as a community.
On October 27 2011 20:00 tVoLT wrote: Your statistics are incorrect. You say 5% of our population is gay but then 100% of the gay population would have to play starcraft for 5 people in our division to be gay, which is not true.
uuhhhhh... what? I think you got it all wrong :D
He got the gist of it, which is that a proportional representation equal to the normal population would need to play Starcraft, which doesn't attract a proportional representation of anything IMO, not including the 5% stat which I have no idea about.
Stupid rage and pathetic immature language isn't something restricted to Starcraft 2 - it's unfortunately a problem all over the internet. The simple truth is that there are an awful lot of dickheads in the world - the internet just allows them to be more vocal as they can say what's on their mind anonymously. Just don't let it get to you - these people are either stupid kids, stupid immature adults, or just plain assholes - groups I want no involvement with anyway. The very fact that they are more vocal makes it much easier to detect and avoid unsavoury people than it is IRL. If someone to be a dickhead then I just shrug it off, laugh and carry on. If they're being really inappropriate simply report them and carry on your day.
At the start of every game, instead of the standard "glhf", i say: "have fun! ♥". Most people think that's awesome - THOSE are the people I will speak to after a game and chat with. Some people rage at me for some unknown, bizarre reason. Sometimes I am asked if I am a girl. One guy recently even retorted with a "fuck you" (lol).
Even if the person using the word(s) doesn't have the intent to be homophobic per se, the intent is still meant to be derogatory. The act of using the the insult is then what ultimately matters; a group of people are being labeled as people that the person using the insults feels are somehow inferior or, to make a stretch, lesser beings. If the intent behind the insult isn't homophobic, then why is it necessary to refer to a stream cheater, stream sniper, cheeser etc. as a fag or gay? Simply put, it's because to be seen as belonging to this group is still an insult, therefore it's homophobic.
And honestly, to all the people that are saying they aren't meaning to be homophobic and that people just need to grow thicker skin, why are you so invested in using this group as an insult? There are plenty of words that can be used to express an annoyance with someone that doesn't insult a group of people, so why do you feel the need to attach yourself to this one? There is a very long history (and just as important, a continuing history) of homophobia behind using gay and fag as an insult that it currently not possible to detach the words from that history.
If anything, I would hope the gaming community would want to remove stuff like this from their lexicon if for any reason than to give themselves legitimacy. The burden is on us to prove to the world that esports is something to be taken seriously and not just some teenagers past time. However if the community is still hanging on to this attitude, then we'll be seen as nothing more than just juvenile teenagers raging over a game. Yes, I know this a problem that exists outside of gaming as well, but we don't have the developed legitimacy and it's our job to rise above it.
On October 27 2011 20:32 Oiseaux wrote: Even if the person using the word(s) doesn't have the intent to be homophobic per se, the intent is still meant to be derogatory. The act of using the the insult is then what ultimately matters; a group of people are being labeled as people that the person using the insults feels are somehow inferior or, to make a stretch, lesser beings. If the intent behind the insult isn't homophobic, then why is it necessary to refer to a stream cheater, stream sniper, cheeser etc. as a fag or gay? Simply put, it's because to be seen as belonging to this group is still an insult, therefore it's homophobic.
And honestly, to all the people that are saying they aren't meaning to be homophobic and that people just need to grow thicker skin, why are you so invested in using this group as an insult? There are plenty of words that can be used to express an annoyance with someone that doesn't insult a group of people, so why do you feel the need to attach yourself to this one? There is a very long history (and just as important, a continuing history) of homophobia behind using gay and fag as an insult that it currently not possible to detach the words from that history.
If anything, I would hope the gaming community would want to remove stuff like this from their lexicon if for any reason than to give themselves legitimacy. The burden is on us to prove to the world that esports is something to be taken seriously and not just some teenagers past time. However if the community is still hanging on to this attitude, then we'll be seen as nothing more than just juvenile teenagers raging over a game. Yes, I know this a problem that exists outside of gaming as well, but we don't have the developed legitimacy and it's our job to rise above it.
Could not have said it better myself. Literally. That was very well said.
On October 27 2011 20:15 Clow wrote: 2.8% of the world population is Brazilian. So out of 250 GSL players, 7 are Brazilian! GO BRAZIL!
You can't change how everyone in the community acts. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people saying those 'words' don't really think about gay people when they use it.
Just make more ♥s imo.
Your logic is flawed, being Brazilian is geographically linked and there are other good reasons to suspect that "being Brazilian" trait has not the same distribution in top SC2 players' population as in the world population. There is no reason to suspect homosexual distribution is different in top SC2 players' population than in general population and even if it was you can just lower the % to lets say 2% and have good lower estimate. So there is extremely high probability that out of 250 GSL players 5 are gay.
EDIT:Similar argument as for Brazilians is true for women, to address the guy trying to use women to show the statistic from general population cannot be used for SC2 players.
Must confess I do actually flame alot, however it's always as a response to someone flaming me. However i never drop F and N-bombs, it's just pointless and can be taken personally.
On October 27 2011 20:32 Oiseaux wrote: Even if the person using the word(s) doesn't have the intent to be homophobic per se, the intent is still meant to be derogatory. The act of using the the insult is then what ultimately matters; a group of people are being labeled as people that the person using the insults feels are somehow inferior or, to make a stretch, lesser beings. If the intent behind the insult isn't homophobic, then why is it necessary to refer to a stream cheater, stream sniper, cheeser etc. as a fag or gay? Simply put, it's because to be seen as belonging to this group is still an insult, therefore it's homophobic.
And honestly, to all the people that are saying they aren't meaning to be homophobic and that people just need to grow thicker skin, why are you so invested in using this group as an insult? There are plenty of words that can be used to express an annoyance with someone that doesn't insult a group of people, so why do you feel the need to attach yourself to this one? There is a very long history (and just as important, a continuing history) of homophobia behind using gay and fag as an insult that it currently not possible to detach the words from that history.
If anything, I would hope the gaming community would want to remove stuff like this from their lexicon if for any reason than to give themselves legitimacy. The burden is on us to prove to the world that esports is something to be taken seriously and not just some teenagers past time. However if the community is still hanging on to this attitude, then we'll be seen as nothing more than just juvenile teenagers raging over a game. Yes, I know this a problem that exists outside of gaming as well, but we don't have the developed legitimacy and it's our job to rise above it.
Could not have said it better myself. Literally. That was very well said.
flaming is hurting esports you say? well, that's retarded (notice how this word is also an insult to a minority)
watch the southpark episode about FAGs and don't behave like a pussy. this is the internet and it has nothing to do with gaming in general.
On October 27 2011 20:32 Oiseaux wrote: Even if the person using the word(s) doesn't have the intent to be homophobic per se, the intent is still meant to be derogatory. The act of using the the insult is then what ultimately matters; a group of people are being labeled as people that the person using the insults feels are somehow inferior or, to make a stretch, lesser beings. If the intent behind the insult isn't homophobic, then why is it necessary to refer to a stream cheater, stream sniper, cheeser etc. as a fag or gay? Simply put, it's because to be seen as belonging to this group is still an insult, therefore it's homophobic.
And honestly, to all the people that are saying they aren't meaning to be homophobic and that people just need to grow thicker skin, why are you so invested in using this group as an insult? There are plenty of words that can be used to express an annoyance with someone that doesn't insult a group of people, so why do you feel the need to attach yourself to this one? There is a very long history (and just as important, a continuing history) of homophobia behind using gay and fag as an insult that it currently not possible to detach the words from that history.
If anything, I would hope the gaming community would want to remove stuff like this from their lexicon if for any reason than to give themselves legitimacy. The burden is on us to prove to the world that esports is something to be taken seriously and not just some teenagers past time. However if the community is still hanging on to this attitude, then we'll be seen as nothing more than just juvenile teenagers raging over a game. Yes, I know this a problem that exists outside of gaming as well, but we don't have the developed legitimacy and it's our job to rise above it.
Best written and most eloquent first post I think I've ever seen. I am jealous that I cannot wordcraft as succinctly as this man.
Just my opinion: Discussions like this are good, but will never change anything. There will always be bashing of gays, blacks or whatever in an environment where people are 'anonymous'. I don't see how anyone would take anything personal.
If my opponent says I'm an ugly bastard, how can I take that personally? I know that he doesn't know or has ever met me in real life. But if you DO take it personal, you shouldn't be communicating with strangers on the internet in any way.
While growing up you build a 'shield' around yourself to protect you from getting hurt by these kind of things. Whether it's your religion, sexual preference, looks, etc you WILL get bashed on in this life. So just accept it, because you can't stop it.
"Shit happens all the time and you learn how to deal with it, Regular, everday, normal fuckin’ bullshit."
On October 27 2011 20:32 Oiseaux wrote: Even if the person using the word(s) doesn't have the intent to be homophobic per se, the intent is still meant to be derogatory. The act of using the the insult is then what ultimately matters; a group of people are being labeled as people that the person using the insults feels are somehow inferior or, to make a stretch, lesser beings. If the intent behind the insult isn't homophobic, then why is it necessary to refer to a stream cheater, stream sniper, cheeser etc. as a fag or gay? Simply put, it's because to be seen as belonging to this group is still an insult, therefore it's homophobic.
And honestly, to all the people that are saying they aren't meaning to be homophobic and that people just need to grow thicker skin, why are you so invested in using this group as an insult? There are plenty of words that can be used to express an annoyance with someone that doesn't insult a group of people, so why do you feel the need to attach yourself to this one? There is a very long history (and just as important, a continuing history) of homophobia behind using gay and fag as an insult that it currently not possible to detach the words from that history.
If anything, I would hope the gaming community would want to remove stuff like this from their lexicon if for any reason than to give themselves legitimacy. The burden is on us to prove to the world that esports is something to be taken seriously and not just some teenagers past time. However if the community is still hanging on to this attitude, then we'll be seen as nothing more than just juvenile teenagers raging over a game. Yes, I know this a problem that exists outside of gaming as well, but we don't have the developed legitimacy and it's our job to rise above it.
Could not have said it better myself. Literally. That was very well said.
flaming is hurting esports you say? well, that's retarded (notice how this word is also an insult to a minority)
watch the southpark episode about FAGs and don't behave like a pussy. this is the internet and it has nothing to do with gaming in general.
EPT
