On July 23 2011 11:59 reverb wrote: Does it bother anyone else that minors were sent to a camp with a political agenda? Is this common?
It's not like they're forced to go there to be indoctrinated. It's just kids who believe in something wanting to be active about it.
You actually never know if their parents forced them to go though :/
I've never heard of anyone being forced to go to a political summer camp. I'm sure it can happen, but it's definitely not common. These camps are mostly for those who are far more interested in politics than the average youth.
pretty much sums it all up , my hearts go out to all the people effected by this.
Fuck off.
This is how small the island is. It makes the whole lack of presence of the police very understandable. The island is puny, and if the whole island was just to be inhabited by a youth group, having security on the island would be really unnecessary. It also helps to explain why so many people died... there's nowhere to run.
On July 23 2011 12:06 DAVEsc2 wrote: For all you who read norwegian, here is a blog posted by someone who got away from the island safely. If enough people want to read it, i may translate it and post it in the same thread.. it's pretty long and very sad. (The title is "The Worst day of my Life")
My question probably seemed very naive, as our cultures differ greatly. I didn't mean to offend, but to inquire into some enlightenment and discussion. The religious and tea party driven summer camps in the United States concern me just as much.
On July 23 2011 12:06 DAVEsc2 wrote: For all you who read norwegian, here is a blog posted by someone who got away from the island safely. If enough people want to read it, i may translate it and post it in the same thread.. it's pretty long and very sad. (The title is "The Worst day of my Life")
On July 23 2011 12:06 DAVEsc2 wrote: For all you who read norwegian, here is a blog posted by someone who got away from the island safely. If enough people want to read it, i may translate it and post it in the same thread.. it's pretty long and very sad. (The title is "The Worst day of my Life")
Thank you for this, one of the persons mentioned in the blog were one of those I feared had died. This means there is only like two more that I know (off), that I still don't know if survived the shooting.
On July 23 2011 12:06 DAVEsc2 wrote: For all you who read norwegian, here is a blog posted by someone who got away from the island safely. If enough people want to read it, i may translate it and post it in the same thread.. it's pretty long and very sad. (The title is "The Worst day of my Life")
My god at that blog post, the worst part must have been the running updates on who were shot, especially in a situation where you're bound to know most of those names. Holy shit.
Yeah, it's pretty insane.. I can't even imagine how hard it must have been for them. Many of them saw their friends getting shot in the head, and they really have to just escape and try to be safe. It's really sickening.
I think I'll set about translating it, might give people better insight into how it was, especially everyone who hasn't been able to see the interviews we've had going on TV. Not like I can sleep anyways lol.
Would be great if you did that, it's not too much text. I could do it myself since im probably not going to get too much sleep tonight either.. But if you want to do it, feel free.
On July 23 2011 11:26 FallDownMarigold wrote: I'm curious how the death toll rose so quickly from 10 to 80 at Utoya. Were police just waiting a while to confirm? Quite a sudden change! I seriously don't see how this man can get anything less than either execution or life behind solitary bars... even if Norway's capital punishment system doesn't currently include it
Well, as someone said there was pretty much nowhere to run unless you started to swim. He was alone there with the guns and the island wasn't that big. The "Swat" team arrived 1-2+ hours late. I think many people might have drowned.
Alright wait. Wait. He was left to rampage for that much time? I was under the impression he had quickly rounded up a group by calling them over as a policeman. HOW WAS HE LEFT WITH SO MUCH TIME? Are you serious? He had up to TWO HOURS before "SWAT" arrived?
Okay I've gone from remorseful to angry. Norway's police system is partially at blame here, sorry, maybe I'm speaking in anger, but that is downright unacceptable. With the bombings having just happened just prior, there should have been reaction teams or whatever you want to call them on standby. Should have been a within-minutes response. That would explain it, sure, but that does not by any means let Norway's police off the hook. Wow, I don't even know what to say, I'm gonna go ahead and stop and let more facts unravel before making any judgments.
It's a 30-45 min drive from Oslo to get there. And it's on an island where so the police needs to take a boat to get there. They could prolly take an helicopter aswell but I would imagine that would have some risks aswell. Please do not talk out of your ass and ask for a withing minute response when that is clearly not possible. Im sure they did what they could as fast as they could. And also remember that ALOT of resources were tied up at the boming in Oslo.
It was a political event. Why the fuck weren't there any cops and/or security on the island?
This baffles me as well. A crowd of 700 and no precautions are made. Its easy to spot mistakes after horrible events have happened though.
It's a youth camp for young politically interested kids.. nothing more.. Security shouldnt be needed on a high level there..
It's possibly the biggest, softest target that could possibly exist. There will always be predators and there are predators everywhere. There is no reason not to expect this in Norway. Norway has less than .02% the population of the US. There is no reason to think that just because it has never happened before that it will never happen.
I'm not saying there should have been a SWAT team on that island or anything like that. A couple adults concealing pistols and a rifle locked in a safe and everyone on that island would have had a much better chance of survival.
What you suggest goes directly against the Scandinavian mentality and if that day arrives where that is ever deemed necessary it will be a very sad day. There is a reason why Norwegian cops seldomly wear their firearms - it is simply just not needed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259356 It's a sad day.
On July 23 2011 12:06 DAVEsc2 wrote: For all you who read norwegian, here is a blog posted by someone who got away from the island safely. If enough people want to read it, i may translate it and post it in the same thread.. it's pretty long and very sad. (The title is "The Worst day of my Life")
Thank you for this, one of the persons mentioned in the blog were one of those I feared had died. This means there is only like two more that I know (off), that I still don't know if survived the shooting.
Hope the best for your friends man, really do. I have a friend that was on the island aswell, that got to safety so i know how you feel.
On July 23 2011 11:26 FallDownMarigold wrote: I'm curious how the death toll rose so quickly from 10 to 80 at Utoya. Were police just waiting a while to confirm? Quite a sudden change! I seriously don't see how this man can get anything less than either execution or life behind solitary bars... even if Norway's capital punishment system doesn't currently include it
Well, as someone said there was pretty much nowhere to run unless you started to swim. He was alone there with the guns and the island wasn't that big. The "Swat" team arrived 1-2+ hours late. I think many people might have drowned.
Alright wait. Wait. He was left to rampage for that much time? I was under the impression he had quickly rounded up a group by calling them over as a policeman. HOW WAS HE LEFT WITH SO MUCH TIME? Are you serious? He had up to TWO HOURS before "SWAT" arrived?
Okay I've gone from remorseful to angry. Norway's police system is partially at blame here, sorry, maybe I'm speaking in anger, but that is downright unacceptable. With the bombings having just happened just prior, there should have been reaction teams or whatever you want to call them on standby. Should have been a within-minutes response. That would explain it, sure, but that does not by any means let Norway's police off the hook. Wow, I don't even know what to say, I'm gonna go ahead and stop and let more facts unravel before making any judgments.
It's a 30-45 min drive from Oslo to get there. And it's on an island where so the police needs to take a boat to get there. They could prolly take an helicopter aswell but I would imagine that would have some risks aswell. Please do not talk out of your ass and ask for a withing minute response when that is clearly not possible. Im sure they did what they could as fast as they could. And also remember that ALOT of resources were tied up at the boming in Oslo.
It was a political event. Why the fuck weren't there any cops and/or security on the island?
This baffles me as well. A crowd of 700 and no precautions are made. Its easy to spot mistakes after horrible events have happened though.
It's a youth camp for young politically interested kids.. nothing more.. Security shouldnt be needed on a high level there..
I'm not saying there should have been a SWAT team on that island or anything like that. A couple adults concealing pistols and a rifle locked in a safe and everyone on that island would have had a much better chance of survival.
Yes it would in hindsight, but the laws regarding firearms are very much different in Scandinavia. You are not allowed to carry or use a weapon (except in self-defence of yourself or others) in public areas. Weapons are not a part of scandinavian culture like in the US, we expect to be able to do things like this without bringing weapons to defend ourselves.
Also I'm glad that he didn't get shot, now he will live the rest of his life with regret in jail.
On July 23 2011 11:26 FallDownMarigold wrote: I'm curious how the death toll rose so quickly from 10 to 80 at Utoya. Were police just waiting a while to confirm? Quite a sudden change! I seriously don't see how this man can get anything less than either execution or life behind solitary bars... even if Norway's capital punishment system doesn't currently include it
Well, as someone said there was pretty much nowhere to run unless you started to swim. He was alone there with the guns and the island wasn't that big. The "Swat" team arrived 1-2+ hours late. I think many people might have drowned.
Alright wait. Wait. He was left to rampage for that much time? I was under the impression he had quickly rounded up a group by calling them over as a policeman. HOW WAS HE LEFT WITH SO MUCH TIME? Are you serious? He had up to TWO HOURS before "SWAT" arrived?
Okay I've gone from remorseful to angry. Norway's police system is partially at blame here, sorry, maybe I'm speaking in anger, but that is downright unacceptable. With the bombings having just happened just prior, there should have been reaction teams or whatever you want to call them on standby. Should have been a within-minutes response. That would explain it, sure, but that does not by any means let Norway's police off the hook. Wow, I don't even know what to say, I'm gonna go ahead and stop and let more facts unravel before making any judgments.
It's a 30-45 min drive from Oslo to get there. And it's on an island where so the police needs to take a boat to get there. They could prolly take an helicopter aswell but I would imagine that would have some risks aswell. Please do not talk out of your ass and ask for a withing minute response when that is clearly not possible. Im sure they did what they could as fast as they could. And also remember that ALOT of resources were tied up at the boming in Oslo.
It was a political event. Why the fuck weren't there any cops and/or security on the island?
This baffles me as well. A crowd of 700 and no precautions are made. Its easy to spot mistakes after horrible events have happened though.
It's a youth camp for young politically interested kids.. nothing more.. Security shouldnt be needed on a high level there..
It's possibly the biggest, softest target that could possibly exist. There will always be predators and there are predators everywhere. There is no reason not to expect this in Norway. Norway has less than .02% the population of the US. There is no reason to think that just because it has never happened before that it will never happen.
I'm not saying there should have been a SWAT team on that island or anything like that. A couple adults concealing pistols and a rifle locked in a safe and everyone on that island would have had a much better chance of survival.
What you suggest goes directly against the Scandinavian mentality and if that day arrives where that is ever deemed necessary it will be a very sad day. There is a reason why Norwegian cops seldomly wear their firearms - it is simply just not needed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259356 It's a sad day.
The key word in there was "deemed"... This incident won't lead to "adults with concealed pistols and a rifle locked in a safe". Heck even the thought of adults walking around with concealed pistols would make most Scandinavians uneasy and definitely unwilling to let their kids alone on an island with them. You really don't grasp the Scandinavian mentality...
On July 23 2011 12:22 reverb wrote: My question probably seemed very naive, as our cultures differ greatly. I didn't mean to offend, but to inquire into some enlightenment and discussion. The religious and tea party driven summer camps in the United States concern me just as much.
On those my friend, you are very right to be concerned. But I'm pretty sure this was supposed to be really different than those you talked about.
And as someone already said, I'm so happy he is still alive. Oh I wish you guys have some real badass jails over there so he gets what he deserves(not jail, but constant..eh.. lets say "punishment" from his inmate "friends".)
On July 23 2011 11:26 FallDownMarigold wrote: I'm curious how the death toll rose so quickly from 10 to 80 at Utoya. Were police just waiting a while to confirm? Quite a sudden change! I seriously don't see how this man can get anything less than either execution or life behind solitary bars... even if Norway's capital punishment system doesn't currently include it
Well, as someone said there was pretty much nowhere to run unless you started to swim. He was alone there with the guns and the island wasn't that big. The "Swat" team arrived 1-2+ hours late. I think many people might have drowned.
Alright wait. Wait. He was left to rampage for that much time? I was under the impression he had quickly rounded up a group by calling them over as a policeman. HOW WAS HE LEFT WITH SO MUCH TIME? Are you serious? He had up to TWO HOURS before "SWAT" arrived?
Okay I've gone from remorseful to angry. Norway's police system is partially at blame here, sorry, maybe I'm speaking in anger, but that is downright unacceptable. With the bombings having just happened just prior, there should have been reaction teams or whatever you want to call them on standby. Should have been a within-minutes response. That would explain it, sure, but that does not by any means let Norway's police off the hook. Wow, I don't even know what to say, I'm gonna go ahead and stop and let more facts unravel before making any judgments.
It's a 30-45 min drive from Oslo to get there. And it's on an island where so the police needs to take a boat to get there. They could prolly take an helicopter aswell but I would imagine that would have some risks aswell. Please do not talk out of your ass and ask for a withing minute response when that is clearly not possible. Im sure they did what they could as fast as they could. And also remember that ALOT of resources were tied up at the boming in Oslo.
It was a political event. Why the fuck weren't there any cops and/or security on the island?
This baffles me as well. A crowd of 700 and no precautions are made. Its easy to spot mistakes after horrible events have happened though.
It's a youth camp for young politically interested kids.. nothing more.. Security shouldnt be needed on a high level there..
It's possibly the biggest, softest target that could possibly exist. There will always be predators and there are predators everywhere. There is no reason not to expect this in Norway. Norway has less than .02% the population of the US. There is no reason to think that just because it has never happened before that it will never happen.
I'm not saying there should have been a SWAT team on that island or anything like that. A couple adults concealing pistols and a rifle locked in a safe and everyone on that island would have had a much better chance of survival.
What you suggest goes directly against the Scandinavian mentality and if that day arrives where that is ever deemed necessary it will be a very sad day. There is a reason why Norwegian cops seldomly wear their firearms - it is simply just not needed.
Excellently put, I could not agree with you more and I actually had a discussion with some norwegian and finnish friends earlier today regarding how open our societies are in terms of how politicians interact with the people. I think it is a very unique scandinavian way and it lies deep in our common culture.
The discussion came up when some people were pointing out just how easy it was to plant a bomb so close to governmental institutions and I think we've all had this debate. When swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme was assassinated this question came up, when foreign minister Anna Lindh was murdered in 2003 it came up and basically there was a discussion regarding how our politicians move among the people without bodyguards and with little security. The astonishing thing is that even in light of the situations where people die over this way of life, and despite it becoming a discussion at the time we continue running our societies like this, without politicians only traveling in armored cars, without heavily armed police because we rather take the risk than live in that kind of society.
I know both swedish and norwegian ministers of state who said in regards to this question that they would rather be shot in the street by a lunatic, than live in the kind of society where they can not move freely among the people.
This issue is not exactly the same as the one regarding heavily armed police, but the mentality behind it is the same. I think this is a mentality shared over all of Scandinavia. We won't compromise our way of life to accommodate those who will take advantage of it to undermine it.
On July 23 2011 09:33 Weson wrote: Norwegian media says that he is a member in a pistol shooting club.
He has a lincenced rifle & a gun. He is in a gunrange club yes.
Seriously what can you do against people like this? That's the biggest thing I hate about all this, even if Norway and the rest of us put the kind of restrictions/safeties as USA fx has, I think this still would've worked. The fucktard had this all just to fucking well planned
There is a very specific thing you can do against this. If a high enough percentage of a population carry firearms, these kinds of things are made impossible or at least reduced to as little death as possible. It would be like trying to commit a massacre at an NRA convention.
STFU please, I promise you we do not want' people to carry guns. That is no way to gain safety...
Yea wtf is he saying... Less massacres sure, but how many more drivebys and gun murders? Even accidents?
At least 80 has been confirmed killed, they are still looking for more people.
I think they will find more, as there was many killed while they were trying to swim over to the other side.
Excuse my french, but this is absolutely fucking insane! They thought it was 10 people killed, but the number has risen, and just keeps getting bigger. I'm so glad that I had no loved once on that island.
I think the bomb in Oslo was just a distraction from the "real event", as when he entered the camp, he explained to the guards who was keeping the camp safe that he was there because of the bombings in Oslo. They would never let him in with firearms if it wasn't for the bombings.
- Sorry for the bad English, but I am damn tiered, but I can't sleep now thinking of all those youths that died today.
Jeg kondolerer på det sterkeste til alle de som har mistet, eller har blitt pårørt av disse hendelsene. <3 u all.
My thoughts go to all the families out there. It's unbelievable.. just unbelievable. I never would've thought that something like this would happen in Norway. Earlier today I read that the gunman killed ~30 kids, now it's confirmed at least 80. My condolences to the families.
![[image loading]](http://lh2112.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/utc3b8ya.jpg)
EPT
