The bold part is a mistake. Lacking a belief in a god doesn't mean you aren't open to any arguments. It simply means there has yet to be a satisfactory logical argument or convincing physical evidence that such a being exists. Atheists are open to such arguments/evidence.
I think you misunderstand how people process logical arguments. It's not "some argue god exists, some argue he doesn't. Therefore you must choose, and either choice requires faith." (my paraphrase of your argument).
It works like this. If I'm going to believe in God, I need to see physical evidence or a logically sound argument. Bring me such an argument, and I'm forced to accept it. The trouble is, no such argument exists. If you think one does, please make it. I'm willing to accept the existence of a god if you can demonstrate it to be true.
Crap, I feel obliged to go into futher detail here, so I'll do my best to find some of the logically valid arguments in favour of the existence of a God. Since obviously you are right, to not take on the position of an atheist there has to be atleast some grounds to do so.
Alright, well, I just spent like 30 minutes looking into it and there's just too much crap to plow through. If you're interested I would recommend Dr William Lane Craig's videos (drcraig on youtube), like I said there's a lot of crap to go through if you want to find some of the good stuff. Atleast I recall some of his arguments to be very compelling, however the arguments that I did find compelling were regarding the existence of a God in general, and I can't seem to find the debates I used to watch with him.
However since the dude's a Christian, there are a lot of videos not relevant to your request. (Some of which I have just watched in the hope to find something good again XD)
So! I suppose I will leave this thread with my tail between my legs now ^^, I hope you find some of the arguments I vaguely remember, since I basically can't give you any right now.
William Lane Craig is a very well known theist and Christian apologist. I'm familiar with a lot of his argument, especially the Kalam Cosmological Argument. If you're interested in a response to any particular point or arguments he makes, let me know. Suffice it to say, he's been weighed, measured, and found wanting.
If you prefer a professional take on it, I'd bet a Google search would yield more responses to Craig from prominent atheists than materials from Craig himself.
On July 14 2011 21:24 Dark Stalker wrote: If you are an atheist then you pretty much having nothing to live for. Why don't you just kill yourself, if nothing exists after death anyway? The reason I am a Christian is because it gives my life meaning. If I wasn't a Christian there would be a gap inside... I guess you could call it a 'God-shaped hole' that can't be fulfilled by money, sex, power... Pretty much any worldly thing there is out there. Basically Christianity is about believing that we are all born fallen, but there is still hope for us if only we're willing to accept it. If a judge was going to put you in jail, but someone came in offering to take your place, why wouldn't you take it? Because that's pretty much what Jesus did for us - we are all sinners, and if Jesus didn't die for us we would all be in Hell right now. Most people who argue against Christianity don't know anything about it so it's like trying to debate about the benefits of StarCraft with someone who thinks that all nerds are just wasting their lives and productivity and giving the gaming industry profits with no social benefits by playing computer games.
I will refrain from discussing Christianity here since i believe that will create this undesirable thing we call "shitfest/flamewar"
I, however, feel obliged to address part of your post. The part that claims Atheists (like me, among many others) lead a meaningless existence, and that we should roll over n die anyway. While i wasn't particularly angry, i do find that offensive.
Despite having no God to believe in, i find many different meanings in life. Whether it is working towards my dream, feeling good about the occasional good deeds that i do, or simply taking a step back to look at life for what it is. I feel full and, for better or for worse, am not at all aware of anything similar to a god-shaped hole in my existence. Since i do not _know_ where i go after i die (probably nowhere), i try to make my time here worthwhile.
Regarding Grand Canyon or similar stuffs, for every wondrous sight that you can show me, i ll show you another hundreds, thousands other sights that arent the least bit pretty, or even downright ugly. If things just randomly go on by themselves, they dont have to produce only ugly stuffs, they can, by chance, make pretty things too.
On July 14 2011 21:25 Dark Stalker wrote: I just want to say one more thing - go out to the grand canyon sometime and look at its magnificent wonders. Or just look at a sunset or the mountains. How can you not believe in a creator when there's something so beautiful in this world? It can't have just all happened by chance.
Why not?
I'm actually amazed that you've never asked the question "Why do I find this beautiful?" (Hint: Because you've evolved on this planet and have learned to appriciate such sights. Not you personally, of course.)
Anyway, as far as your "Your life is devoid of meaning, only my pompous belief in God gives meaning to me and my fellow horde of believers!" goes:
On July 14 2011 16:32 snotboogie wrote: When it comes down to it, the existence of life, consciousness and intelligence on an inhabitable planet is way too coincidental to be random. Yes, I believe in God.
Thats the thing, its not a huge coincidence as every one seems to think, its not a coincidence at all, there is an infinite number of planets on the universe, if we didnt evolve on this particular one you can be sure we would evolve on any other with the right properties.
The universe wasnt "made" perfectly to accommodate life; life, as we know it, evolved and changed to be able to accommodate in this universe.
On July 14 2011 21:24 Dark Stalker wrote: If you are an atheist then you pretty much having nothing to live for. Why don't you just kill yourself, if nothing exists after death anyway? The reason I am a Christian is because it gives my life meaning. If I wasn't a Christian there would be a gap inside... I guess you could call it a 'God-shaped hole' that can't be fulfilled by money, sex, power... Pretty much any worldly thing there is out there. Basically Christianity is about believing that we are all born fallen, but there is still hope for us if only we're willing to accept it. If a judge was going to put you in jail, but someone came in offering to take your place, why wouldn't you take it? Because that's pretty much what Jesus did for us - we are all sinners, and if Jesus didn't die for us we would all be in Hell right now. Most people who argue against Christianity don't know anything about it so it's like trying to debate about the benefits of StarCraft with someone who thinks that all nerds are just wasting their lives and productivity and giving the gaming industry profits with no social benefits by playing computer games.
Ironic, given that you know nothing about atheism. Just because there is no Ultimate Purpose doesn't make life meaningless, I hope someday you realise how incredibly dense that is. It's telling that you think the alternative to religion is money sex and power.
For a tiny, miniscule split second in the incomprehensible vastness of the universe, I am alive. For the shortest time I can see some of it's wonders, and even better I am surrounded by people to share it with, to be friends with, to have arguments with, to fall in love with. It is often a struggle, but life is beautiful. Why on earth would I want to kill myself? If I were to believe that after death there is an eternal after life anyway, does that not make this life meaningless? The only meaning would be to please and praise Jesus so I get into heaven.
Quite apart from that I find the very idea of all humanity being worthless depraved sinners literally deserving of an eternity of torture to be horrific and deplorable.
EDIT: The first video that HellRoxYa posted says it very well.
On July 14 2011 21:46 ffreakk wrote: If things just randomly go on by themselves, they dont have to produce only ugly stuffs, they can, by chance, make pretty things too.
Although I pretty much agree with your argument, as a statistician I have to put in a note of warning here: there are two errors in this last remark that will feed the believers.
First, science says nature evolves by a process of natural selection, which means that random differences in an individual's genetic makeup will, if beneficial to the chance of reproduction, on average be reinforced in the gene pool. So there is chance involved there, but it is probably the selection bit that makes things pretty.
Second, our sense of beauty is not independent of the way the world looks. It seems to me that it is not a coincidence that the things we find beautiful or ugly are exactly the things that we find in our own environment.
On July 14 2011 21:25 Dark Stalker wrote: I just want to say one more thing - go out to the grand canyon sometime and look at its magnificent wonders. Or just look at a sunset or the mountains. How can you not believe in a creator when there's something so beautiful in this world? It can't have just all happened by chance.
Why not?
I'm actually amazed that you've never asked the question "Why do I find this beautiful?" (Hint: Because you've evolved on this planet and have learned to appriciate such sights. Not you personally, of course.)
Anyway, as far as your "Your life is devoid of meaning, only my pompous belief in God gives meaning to me and my fellow horde of believers!" goes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptwEV0xhTzI
It's a shame that there's SITLL people who can't accept that life is given meaning by us, humans, not some outside influence that desires to be praised or will burn you for eternity.
I feel no urge to define my so called beliefs. Something created the universe, but what created the creator? Discussing these matters will always result in a dead end. The universe just exists and has always done so.
On July 14 2011 21:24 Dark Stalker wrote: If you are an atheist then you pretty much having nothing to live for. Why don't you just kill yourself, if nothing exists after death anyway? The reason I am a Christian is because it gives my life meaning. If I wasn't a Christian there would be a gap inside... I guess you could call it a 'God-shaped hole' that can't be fulfilled by money, sex, power... Pretty much any worldly thing there is out there. Basically Christianity is about believing that we are all born fallen, but there is still hope for us if only we're willing to accept it. If a judge was going to put you in jail, but someone came in offering to take your place, why wouldn't you take it? Because that's pretty much what Jesus did for us - we are all sinners, and if Jesus didn't die for us we would all be in Hell right now. Most people who argue against Christianity don't know anything about it so it's like trying to debate about the benefits of StarCraft with someone who thinks that all nerds are just wasting their lives and productivity and giving the gaming industry profits with no social benefits by playing computer games.
Your logic stumbles me, so if nothing exists after death we should just kill ourselves? That a wierd perception of the world sir., should be the other way, if you do believe theres afterlife, a better life then your actual, than just kill yourself.
On July 14 2011 21:24 Dark Stalker wrote: If you are an atheist then you pretty much having nothing to live for. Why don't you just kill yourself, if nothing exists after death anyway? The reason I am a Christian is because it gives my life meaning. If I wasn't a Christian there would be a gap inside... I guess you could call it a 'God-shaped hole' that can't be fulfilled by money, sex, power... Pretty much any worldly thing there is out there. Basically Christianity is about believing that we are all born fallen, but there is still hope for us if only we're willing to accept it. If a judge was going to put you in jail, but someone came in offering to take your place, why wouldn't you take it? Because that's pretty much what Jesus did for us - we are all sinners, and if Jesus didn't die for us we would all be in Hell right now. Most people who argue against Christianity don't know anything about it so it's like trying to debate about the benefits of StarCraft with someone who thinks that all nerds are just wasting their lives and productivity and giving the gaming industry profits with no social benefits by playing computer games.
I completely agree with you about a hole that could exist if u left your belief.
A unjust problem lies within the start of the whole discussion, In semantics.
The atheists starts with a huge handicap. Their belief is called not believing. Now from the outside that looks kind of empty. Like a void ray withóut a ray... But somehow these people have survived for a long time, this meaningless their supposed to find hasn't turned them into selfish anarchists who's only purpose is to fck things up for others. Of course atheists do such things, and there are atheist psychopats in this world. But the same argument can be made for religious people.
Anyway to get on with it. - Religion or Atheism. - Beliving or not beliving. - Religion or not religion. - Religion or not beliving in religion.
That's the first look on it. It's the way our society has made our though impulses to understand the difference between them.
But perhaps religion shouldn't have patent on the word beliving. Perhaps belief doesn't necessarily involve religion or something outside of this world. Perhaps people have survived and lived together for as long as the human as we know it has existed.
-Religion or Atheism. -Beliving in a religions worldview or not beliving in a religions worldview.
-Believing in life and having hope for things in life and finding meaning in love, our children, the worlds beauty+ religion or Believing in life and having hope for things in life and finding meaning in love, our children, the worlds beauty - religion.
Enough about semantics, let's move on to the hole.
I believe that when a person lives a religious life he will fill his or her habits and identity and worldview according to his religion and religious people around him or her.
Leaving such a life would involve refilling or refining goals in life which have been effected most of the choices in life. It can in some cases involve leaving your family and relatives which u might feel belonging to, needed by, and needing. When these things are what your legs stand on. Why fall down? For the truth? That's how I fell. I saw holes in the christian belief and I had questions I avoided to be able to call myself a christian.
Leaving this belief didn't hurt my family ties. It didn't hurt my relation to my religious friends. It brought me closer to people who I shared a world view with. In my case I'll always find it completely logical the way I left my view, and filled that hole with new belief. In your case, only you have the choice or answer. Perhaps u might leave your belief and return believing even more.
Just keep in your mind that meaning is life doesn't have to involve a God. Any smiling Atheist around the world is a proof of that. I'll finish this post with Stephen Hawking speaking of meaning, and a awesome song by "The National". Thank you and good bye. The National - Think you can wait
"One, remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Two, never give up work. Work gives you meaning and purpose and life is empty without it," he said. "Three, if you are lucky enough to find love, remember it is there and don't throw it away."
On July 14 2011 21:35 Demonace34 wrote: Your argument for god is: The world is beautiful -----> There is a god.
There is also death, destruction, famine and tons of injustices. The universe is chaotic, stars blow up everyday, and our sun will eventually blow up. I don't think that a beautiful world proves the existence of god.
But those things are a result of mankind sinning. We are responsible for that, not God. In order to have free will, we have to be able to take the good with the bad - otherwise we would have just been robots programmed to do exactly what God wants. But because God loved us so much we were created with the freedom to choose for ourselves what we want. Unfortunately many people choose to turn away from God, which is why there are so many horrible things happening in the world today.
I would just say that many atheists have well intentioned moral and ethical beliefs and can actually be altruistic without god in the picture. We also have atleast a basic understanding of world religions and have well thought out arguments against theists.
Yes, I don't disagree with you there. Atheists are just as capable of being altruistic as Christians. The problem is though none of us are perfect, so even if you donated a million dollars to charity, if you murdered someone you would still have to go to jail, just as a murderer with no money would also go to jail. The difference between a Christian and an atheist is that while we are not perfect, we have accepted Jesus' death for us.
What bothers me is that you seem to assume that nonbelievers only live for things like money, sex and power. I find that a very arrogant attitude! While I don't see that there is any objective "meaning of life", I do try to lead a meaningful and ethical life. My work and my relations with friends and family are every bit as meaningful as yours, and art and music can at times touch me to the core. Do you really feel the need to insist that such things are meaningless?
I didn't say you only lived for money, sex and power, but those are certainly the things you aspire to in your life - would you not agree? There's nothing greater - no God to believe in - so once you reach that level of money, fame and power, you have nothing to live for anymore. The difference with Christianity is that Christians believe in God, who is infinite, so there is no limit as to how high we can soar on his eagle's wings.
I don't have time to watch all the videos the rest of you have posted, but I strongly recommend you watch this to get a better understanding of Christianity. The pastor here is also black, like the guy in the video you posted above:
I think I speak on behalf of all Christians here on TL when I say we truly genuinely care about what will happen to your souls when you die, and if you believe in things like homosexuality and pornography it will only lead to death. Pornography is perhaps the most destructive thing in the world today that is leading to countless evils being committed (rape, suicide, homocide). I know this because I used to be an atheist myself, but then I went to a Christian camp at the invitation of a friend when I was 17. It was super fun and very eye-opening.
It turns out, God gave me some visions of my relationship with my girlfriend at the time failing there, because they had some speeches they do there about previous experiences, and apperantly one girl there had a vision that her relationship was becoming bad, and then it did. It made me realise that God comes first, and so my girlfriend had to become a close second in my life.
That's probably the hardest thing about Christianity - yes, there are wars that are happening in the world and poverty and starvation and economic crises, but nothing is harder than putting aside the 'self' and putting Jesus first in your life. If anyone wants to talk about this more feel free to PM me.
On July 14 2011 22:17 Dark Stalker wrote: I don't have time to watch all the videos the rest of you have posted, but I strongly recommend you watch this to get a better understanding of Christianity. The pastor here is also black, like the guy in the video you posted above:
Lmfao, really? I posted the video because it contains very wise words by very wise people (several, in fact, not just "a black guy". You'd know if you watched the video and you should). What does skincolor have to do with anything? Do you seriously believe I looked up "that one video with the black guy" to give it more credability or something? I'll go read the rest of your post now but oh my, really felt I had to write something about this first.
On July 14 2011 22:17 Dark Stalker wrote: I think I speak on behalf of all Christians here on TL when I say we truly genuinely care about what will happen to your souls when you die, and if you believe in things like homosexuality and pornography it will only lead to death. Pornography is perhaps the most destructive thing in the world today that is leading to countless evils being committed (rape, suicide, homocide). I know this because I used to be an atheist myself, but then I went to a Christian camp at the invitation of a friend when I was 17. It was super fun and very eye-opening.
And because you stepped in it, please explain the logical conclusion that lead you to believe that pornography has anything to do with rape, suicide and homicide. Because to me, as a rational person reading news, studies and concidering the options it doesn't seem very likely to be the case.
On July 14 2011 22:17 Dark Stalker wrote: I didn't say you only lived for money, sex and power, but those are certainly the things you aspire to in your life - would you not agree? There's nothing greater - no God to believe in - so once you reach that level of money, fame and power, you have nothing to live for anymore. The difference with Christianity is that Christians believe in God, who is infinite, so there is no limit as to how high we can soar on his eagle's wings.
I think I speak on behalf of all Christians here on TL when I say we truly genuinely care about what will happen to your souls when you die, and if you believe in things like homosexuality and pornography it will only lead to death. Pornography is perhaps the most destructive thing in the world today that is leading to countless evils being committed (rape, suicide, homocide). I know this because I used to be an atheist myself, but then I went to a Christian camp at the invitation of a friend when I was 17. It was super fun and very eye-opening.
I see a lot of this; people who were converted during their teenage years and therefore believe all atheists think like they did when they were teenagers.
Pornography leads to and comes from a lot of awful stuff, yeah. Homosexuality though? Fuck off does it.
On July 14 2011 21:24 Dark Stalker wrote: If you are an atheist then you pretty much having nothing to live for. Why don't you just kill yourself, if nothing exists after death anyway? The reason I am a Christian is because it gives my life meaning. If I wasn't a Christian there would be a gap inside... I guess you could call it a 'God-shaped hole' that can't be fulfilled by money, sex, power... Pretty much any worldly thing there is out there. Basically Christianity is about believing that we are all born fallen, but there is still hope for us if only we're willing to accept it. If a judge was going to put you in jail, but someone came in offering to take your place, why wouldn't you take it? Because that's pretty much what Jesus did for us - we are all sinners, and if Jesus didn't die for us we would all be in Hell right now. Most people who argue against Christianity don't know anything about it so it's like trying to debate about the benefits of StarCraft with someone who thinks that all nerds are just wasting their lives and productivity and giving the gaming industry profits with no social benefits by playing computer games.
please dont be that offensive. I am an Atheist and why should I kill myself? Life is great. there are so many interesting things on earth and I am a very curious guy. So I use my time to experience as much as I can. Why isnt that enough? why dont all animals kill themselfs? they dont have anything to do with religion and afterlife. they just live and so do humans. We are just more evolved, aware of our existence and have a lot of question. Many of those (unanswered 1.000 years ago) have been solved by now, others haven`t. Maybe some questions will ever be a mystery, but hopefully mankind will never stop searching for answers. 'Religion pretty much counters this.
I want to adress another issue. I`ve read some comments by people who say that atheists "believe" in no god. Imo that`s an uncorrect expression. "Believe" per definition is directed towards something, no matter if there is enough or any kind of hard evidence and this something is wished to be true. Atheist don't "believe" when it comes to god and they dont "believe" that there is none. They just dont see enough evidence and therefore they aren`t convinced that there is a god. And here it ends. Atheist dont choose to not believe in god, they dont want him to not exists and they dont see the point in filling the gap(s). This is a very important point.
I haven't read the entire thread, so I apologize if this point of view has already been mentioned. I am addressing the OP's point about scientists not being able to explain where the universe came from. He posed that a being more powerful than the universe needs to have existed first in order to create the universe.
However, this runs into the problem of where such a being would come from? So, assuming that the universe exists is actually a simpler proposition, since a creator God would, by definition, have to be more complicated than the universe that he creates.
So even though it is a perhaps unsatisfying assumption that the universe can exist by itself, it is even more unsatisfying to assume that God exists.
EPT
