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Hello!
Today I came across this wierd game on DQ. He went 6 pool and I scouted at 9 pylon and still I lost. Unfortunaly I scouted his base last, maybe a bit unlucky.
I still don't know what I could had done different. I mean if I had scouted him I would certainly know that I should be able to hold it but now when I scouted him last it was basically autolose.
Is there anything I could had done different?
Replay: http://drop.sc/2233
Also in General if your unlucky and scout his base last and he's going 6 pool you can't really defend it or was it just my slow reflexes not to send all my probies to kill his blocking drone and but down gateways?
Thanks for help!
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Have the same problem on 4 player maps where i scout the zerg base last. Even if i throw down a forge immediatelly, and throw down as many other buildings behind the forge, he gets through.
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http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/6_pool
Information on countering 6 pools is in that article.
Using a few probes to block the choke while you chrono out a zealot can make all the difference in these 3 minute games. Don't forget to use some workers when needed.
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That's why it's a gamble on 4 player maps - if you want to be sure it doesn't happen, if you don't scout him first with your first probe, send another probe to the other "close" spot, so that you have two scouting probes each about to scout their respective "unscouted" bases. It was done in BW commonly, although more so for the intent of seeing the nexus timing than anything else, I saw it done in the GSTL the other day.
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at first i thought it'd be a tell from the scouting pattern, but because of his double drone scout that's tough to do (and too late anyway).
Pulling 4-5 drones is the worst response you could do though, a 7 pool like this (was 7, nog 6) can be fought by pulling all probes... your gateway was up, and you had about 250 minerals when his lings came in. Pull all probes to force him to withdraw (he'll lose lings if he keeps targetting the pylon) and do a full wall-in with either a second gate or a forge. If he takes down the pylon, throw down another one with your remaining minerals, if not chrono out a zealot. the double building block should give you time to corner the lings in your base.
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You don't need to react to a 6 pool in order to stop it. Sure a forge and cannon are a surefire way to stop it, but you can just as easily stop it with proper probe micro.
Once the lings first hit your base, your zealot should be half done at least, so chrono boost the rest out. If you grab all your probes to attack move, you will always win vs lings. If the zerg just pokes and never fully engages with lings, then you have time to get the zealot out and you win. The way I micro probes is I attack move with all of them, and watch their hp in the bottom panel. The second a probe gets his hp hit, retreat it. I usually win a full on engagement losing 1-2 probes max.
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On March 24 2011 02:21 Wintertime wrote:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/6_poolInformation on countering 6 pools is in that article. Using a few probes to block the choke while you chrono out a zealot can make all the difference in these 3 minute games. Don't forget to use some workers when needed.
Sorry but I know how to stop it if I scout in time. My choke would had required about all my probes to block and that wouldn't still be enough. Problem was if you scout 6 pool last positon even if early scout how are you going to defend it properly? Thanks!
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On March 24 2011 02:33 Chairman Ray wrote:
You don't need to react to a 6 pool in order to stop it. Sure a forge and cannon are a surefire way to stop it, but you can just as easily stop it with proper probe micro.
Once the lings first hit your base, your zealot should be half done at least, so chrono boost the rest out. If you grab all your probes to attack move, you will always win vs lings. If the zerg just pokes and never fully engages with lings, then you have time to get the zealot out and you win. The way I micro probes is I attack move with all of them, and watch their hp in the bottom panel. The second a probe gets his hp hit, retreat it. I usually win a full on engagement losing 1-2 probes max.
This is correct. Just know that you can beat a 6 pool without making cannons, even if your Zeal is late. I've said this a billion times, just run your probes around until your CB Zeal is out, then take all of them and a-move the lings. Then grab only the probes, and click on mineral patches to set them to mine, then a-move, then mine, then a-move, etc. Keep it up, what this does is confuse the lings attack priority making them move to attack the zeal, then the probes, then the zeal, then the probes until the Zealot kills off all the lings with some help from the probes. Seal off your choke with a pylon and then continue as normal, take all probes off of gas and put on mining because you might have lost some probes or need more zeals if the Zerg player keeps up the pressure. Don't need cannons, only need 1 zeal and a pylon to seal the front so you can CB more zeals.
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On March 24 2011 02:45 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 02:33 Chairman Ray wrote:
You don't need to react to a 6 pool in order to stop it. Sure a forge and cannon are a surefire way to stop it, but you can just as easily stop it with proper probe micro.
Once the lings first hit your base, your zealot should be half done at least, so chrono boost the rest out. If you grab all your probes to attack move, you will always win vs lings. If the zerg just pokes and never fully engages with lings, then you have time to get the zealot out and you win. The way I micro probes is I attack move with all of them, and watch their hp in the bottom panel. The second a probe gets his hp hit, retreat it. I usually win a full on engagement losing 1-2 probes max. This is correct. Just know that you can beat a 6 pool without making cannons, even if your Zeal is late. I've said this a billion times, just run your probes around until your CB Zeal is out, then take all of them and a-move the lings. Then grab only the probes, and click on mineral patches to set them to mine, then a-move, then mine, then a-move, etc. Keep it up, what this does is confuse the lings attack priority making them move to attack the zeal, then the probes, then the zeal, then the probes until the Zealot kills off all the lings with some help from the probes. Seal off your choke with a pylon and then continue as normal, take all probes off of gas and put on mining because you might have lost some probes or need more zeals if the Zerg player keeps up the pressure. Don't need cannons, only need 1 zeal and a pylon to seal the front so you can CB more zeals.
Wouldn't it be different on DQ, with such short rush distances? I feel like they could simply walk in and snipe the pylon.... you never go directly for the probes with 6 pool anyways.
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On March 24 2011 03:23 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 02:45 tehemperorer wrote:On March 24 2011 02:33 Chairman Ray wrote:
You don't need to react to a 6 pool in order to stop it. Sure a forge and cannon are a surefire way to stop it, but you can just as easily stop it with proper probe micro.
Once the lings first hit your base, your zealot should be half done at least, so chrono boost the rest out. If you grab all your probes to attack move, you will always win vs lings. If the zerg just pokes and never fully engages with lings, then you have time to get the zealot out and you win. The way I micro probes is I attack move with all of them, and watch their hp in the bottom panel. The second a probe gets his hp hit, retreat it. I usually win a full on engagement losing 1-2 probes max. This is correct. Just know that you can beat a 6 pool without making cannons, even if your Zeal is late. I've said this a billion times, just run your probes around until your CB Zeal is out, then take all of them and a-move the lings. Then grab only the probes, and click on mineral patches to set them to mine, then a-move, then mine, then a-move, etc. Keep it up, what this does is confuse the lings attack priority making them move to attack the zeal, then the probes, then the zeal, then the probes until the Zealot kills off all the lings with some help from the probes. Seal off your choke with a pylon and then continue as normal, take all probes off of gas and put on mining because you might have lost some probes or need more zeals if the Zerg player keeps up the pressure. Don't need cannons, only need 1 zeal and a pylon to seal the front so you can CB more zeals. Wouldn't it be different on DQ, with such short rush distances? I feel like they could simply walk in and snipe the pylon.... you never go directly for the probes with 6 pool anyways.
Kind of, some spawns have ramps closer to the main than others, but I have a 10pylon/10gate tech opening that I use against Zerg most of the time on DQ so my zeal is earlier than 12 gates when I spot the early pool.
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Suppose you're not able to stop the rush if you scout the zerg last, but you can if you scout him first or second. Then that gives you a 2/3 win rate. Those are pretty good odds, about Flash's overall winrate 
But as other people have said, it should be blockable even if you don't scout it.
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On March 24 2011 02:45 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 02:33 Chairman Ray wrote:
You don't need to react to a 6 pool in order to stop it. Sure a forge and cannon are a surefire way to stop it, but you can just as easily stop it with proper probe micro.
Once the lings first hit your base, your zealot should be half done at least, so chrono boost the rest out. If you grab all your probes to attack move, you will always win vs lings. If the zerg just pokes and never fully engages with lings, then you have time to get the zealot out and you win. The way I micro probes is I attack move with all of them, and watch their hp in the bottom panel. The second a probe gets his hp hit, retreat it. I usually win a full on engagement losing 1-2 probes max. This is correct. Just know that you can beat a 6 pool without making cannons, even if your Zeal is late. I've said this a billion times, just run your probes around until your CB Zeal is out, then take all of them and a-move the lings. Then grab only the probes, and click on mineral patches to set them to mine, then a-move, then mine, then a-move, etc. Keep it up, what this does is confuse the lings attack priority making them move to attack the zeal, then the probes, then the zeal, then the probes until the Zealot kills off all the lings with some help from the probes. Seal off your choke with a pylon and then continue as normal, take all probes off of gas and put on mining because you might have lost some probes or need more zeals if the Zerg player keeps up the pressure. Don't need cannons, only need 1 zeal and a pylon to seal the front so you can CB more zeals.
Yes, you can beat a 6 pool all-in by pulling all probes and stalling until your 1st and second zealot pop out, but if the Zerg does an 8 pool and commits only 6-8 lings, he'll be able to kill a few probes or AT LEAST run around, burning mining time. In this situation the Zerg will run your probes around unless he can kill 4+ probes, and since lings outrun probes and zealots this is no problem. If he does 250+ mins of damage, he's ahead. After the first inject pop, the zerg will be even on harvesters and an expo halfway done.
8 pool is fast enough that on most maps it will arrive before the chrono zealot pops out. If a full wall-off with no forge is done, the Zerg can time killing the gateways both at once, guaranteeing 300 minerals of damage, delaying production and causing panic.
The BEST way to react is to wall off, get a forge and a cannon, simply said. Everything else is risky and depends on the Zerg mismicroing his lings.
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He comes when your gate is up so what you need to do is complete the wall of entirely with a forge and pylon. Then you will need to hope you can build a canon before he breaks ur wall.
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On March 24 2011 06:04 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 02:45 tehemperorer wrote:On March 24 2011 02:33 Chairman Ray wrote:
You don't need to react to a 6 pool in order to stop it. Sure a forge and cannon are a surefire way to stop it, but you can just as easily stop it with proper probe micro.
Once the lings first hit your base, your zealot should be half done at least, so chrono boost the rest out. If you grab all your probes to attack move, you will always win vs lings. If the zerg just pokes and never fully engages with lings, then you have time to get the zealot out and you win. The way I micro probes is I attack move with all of them, and watch their hp in the bottom panel. The second a probe gets his hp hit, retreat it. I usually win a full on engagement losing 1-2 probes max. This is correct. Just know that you can beat a 6 pool without making cannons, even if your Zeal is late. I've said this a billion times, just run your probes around until your CB Zeal is out, then take all of them and a-move the lings. Then grab only the probes, and click on mineral patches to set them to mine, then a-move, then mine, then a-move, etc. Keep it up, what this does is confuse the lings attack priority making them move to attack the zeal, then the probes, then the zeal, then the probes until the Zealot kills off all the lings with some help from the probes. Seal off your choke with a pylon and then continue as normal, take all probes off of gas and put on mining because you might have lost some probes or need more zeals if the Zerg player keeps up the pressure. Don't need cannons, only need 1 zeal and a pylon to seal the front so you can CB more zeals. Yes, you can beat a 6 pool all-in by pulling all probes and stalling until your 1st and second zealot pop out, but if the Zerg does an 8 pool and commits only 6-8 lings, he'll be able to kill a few probes or AT LEAST run around, burning mining time. In this situation the Zerg will run your probes around unless he can kill 4+ probes, and since lings outrun probes and zealots this is no problem. If he does 250+ mins of damage, he's ahead. After the first inject pop, the zerg will be even on harvesters and an expo halfway done. 8 pool is fast enough that on most maps it will arrive before the chrono zealot pops out. If a full wall-off with no forge is done, the Zerg can time killing the gateways both at once, guaranteeing 300 minerals of damage, delaying production and causing panic. The BEST way to react is to wall off, get a forge and a cannon, simply said. Everything else is risky and depends on the Zerg mismicroing his lings.
Zerg does not even out on harvesters after an 8 pool. Protoss can be up to 15 workers by the time 8 pool hits. He must do probe damage and delay mining for a while to do enough damage to be even with the protoss. Also you are forgetting how extremely late Zerg's expansion is going to be which he needs to stay in the game vs Protoss.
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7 pool
drone to 8
overlord
after pool done, build 4 lings, overlord finishes shortly after, another set close behind. Optimized build. If you are not ready, zerg will be ahead. If zerg does enough damage, they will be ahead.
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On March 24 2011 06:12 zJayy962 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 06:04 Sbrubbles wrote:On March 24 2011 02:45 tehemperorer wrote:On March 24 2011 02:33 Chairman Ray wrote:
You don't need to react to a 6 pool in order to stop it. Sure a forge and cannon are a surefire way to stop it, but you can just as easily stop it with proper probe micro.
Once the lings first hit your base, your zealot should be half done at least, so chrono boost the rest out. If you grab all your probes to attack move, you will always win vs lings. If the zerg just pokes and never fully engages with lings, then you have time to get the zealot out and you win. The way I micro probes is I attack move with all of them, and watch their hp in the bottom panel. The second a probe gets his hp hit, retreat it. I usually win a full on engagement losing 1-2 probes max. This is correct. Just know that you can beat a 6 pool without making cannons, even if your Zeal is late. I've said this a billion times, just run your probes around until your CB Zeal is out, then take all of them and a-move the lings. Then grab only the probes, and click on mineral patches to set them to mine, then a-move, then mine, then a-move, etc. Keep it up, what this does is confuse the lings attack priority making them move to attack the zeal, then the probes, then the zeal, then the probes until the Zealot kills off all the lings with some help from the probes. Seal off your choke with a pylon and then continue as normal, take all probes off of gas and put on mining because you might have lost some probes or need more zeals if the Zerg player keeps up the pressure. Don't need cannons, only need 1 zeal and a pylon to seal the front so you can CB more zeals. Yes, you can beat a 6 pool all-in by pulling all probes and stalling until your 1st and second zealot pop out, but if the Zerg does an 8 pool and commits only 6-8 lings, he'll be able to kill a few probes or AT LEAST run around, burning mining time. In this situation the Zerg will run your probes around unless he can kill 4+ probes, and since lings outrun probes and zealots this is no problem. If he does 250+ mins of damage, he's ahead. After the first inject pop, the zerg will be even on harvesters and an expo halfway done. 8 pool is fast enough that on most maps it will arrive before the chrono zealot pops out. If a full wall-off with no forge is done, the Zerg can time killing the gateways both at once, guaranteeing 300 minerals of damage, delaying production and causing panic. The BEST way to react is to wall off, get a forge and a cannon, simply said. Everything else is risky and depends on the Zerg mismicroing his lings. Zerg does not even out on harvesters after an 8 pool. Protoss can be up to 15 workers by the time 8 pool hits. He must do probe damage and delay mining for a while to do enough damage to be even with the protoss. Also you are forgetting how extremely late Zerg's expansion is going to be which he needs to stay in the game vs Protoss.
He does not need to kill the probes to cause the 300 mineral worth of damage to his opponent. The combined delay in tech, units killed, mining time lost, delay in production, and damage to the builds all must get the zerg to 300+ mineral worth of damage. So with 16 probes you can mine 675-700 mineral every minute, which means you lose roughly 11-12 minerals every second your guys are off the patches. If he can delay you from mining for like 10 seconds coupled with maybe 1-2 probe kills, a zealot kill, or building dmg and you got some nice stuff.
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easy to stop, terrible build. probe micro destroys this.
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You can always run your probes around till one of your Zerg allies or Terran allies gets some lings/marines to help out.
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#1: Pull probes. You can hold off a 6pool with just probes if you have to, only losing a handful in the process).
#2: Double-power your gateway.
#3: Don't stop playing the game FFS. You never started a zealot, and stopped doing anything except controlling the *four* workers you pulled to attack 6 zerglings. You don't get bonus points for having 300 minerals at the 3 minute mark.
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On March 24 2011 06:12 zJayy962 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 06:04 Sbrubbles wrote:On March 24 2011 02:45 tehemperorer wrote:On March 24 2011 02:33 Chairman Ray wrote:
You don't need to react to a 6 pool in order to stop it. Sure a forge and cannon are a surefire way to stop it, but you can just as easily stop it with proper probe micro.
Once the lings first hit your base, your zealot should be half done at least, so chrono boost the rest out. If you grab all your probes to attack move, you will always win vs lings. If the zerg just pokes and never fully engages with lings, then you have time to get the zealot out and you win. The way I micro probes is I attack move with all of them, and watch their hp in the bottom panel. The second a probe gets his hp hit, retreat it. I usually win a full on engagement losing 1-2 probes max. This is correct. Just know that you can beat a 6 pool without making cannons, even if your Zeal is late. I've said this a billion times, just run your probes around until your CB Zeal is out, then take all of them and a-move the lings. Then grab only the probes, and click on mineral patches to set them to mine, then a-move, then mine, then a-move, etc. Keep it up, what this does is confuse the lings attack priority making them move to attack the zeal, then the probes, then the zeal, then the probes until the Zealot kills off all the lings with some help from the probes. Seal off your choke with a pylon and then continue as normal, take all probes off of gas and put on mining because you might have lost some probes or need more zeals if the Zerg player keeps up the pressure. Don't need cannons, only need 1 zeal and a pylon to seal the front so you can CB more zeals. Yes, you can beat a 6 pool all-in by pulling all probes and stalling until your 1st and second zealot pop out, but if the Zerg does an 8 pool and commits only 6-8 lings, he'll be able to kill a few probes or AT LEAST run around, burning mining time. In this situation the Zerg will run your probes around unless he can kill 4+ probes, and since lings outrun probes and zealots this is no problem. If he does 250+ mins of damage, he's ahead. After the first inject pop, the zerg will be even on harvesters and an expo halfway done. 8 pool is fast enough that on most maps it will arrive before the chrono zealot pops out. If a full wall-off with no forge is done, the Zerg can time killing the gateways both at once, guaranteeing 300 minerals of damage, delaying production and causing panic. The BEST way to react is to wall off, get a forge and a cannon, simply said. Everything else is risky and depends on the Zerg mismicroing his lings. Zerg does not even out on harvesters after an 8 pool. Protoss can be up to 15 workers by the time 8 pool hits. He must do probe damage and delay mining for a while to do enough damage to be even with the protoss. Also you are forgetting how extremely late Zerg's expansion is going to be which he needs to stay in the game vs Protoss.
I never said you don't have to do any damage. Actually I'm pretty sure I said you have to do at least 250 mins of damage. The point is, it's not that hard to do as long as you're smart with your lings, unless he puts a cannon up (or if he went forge-first, in which case you're kinda screwed).
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EPT
