I was just in a long, drawn out argument with about 5 of my friends, who were arguing that battle for middle earth ii is an a) more popular game, b) has greater depth, and c) starcraft doesn't actually count as a "strategy" game because there is no actual military strategy involved.
I know, people here will start raging (more or less like I would have if I didn't contain myself) but can you guys give me logical arguments?
They claim that Starcraft was never really that big for a long time, both to the general population and to the gaming population; that Starcraft and the RTS genre in general didn't really get big until BFME2 came out. They claimed that over 70 million people play BFME2 rise of the witch king currently, with multimillion dollar tournaments, and that 93% of Russia's population plays the game.
They also claim that Starcraft isn't a game as deep (this is what really annoys me). That you basically have to end up using one or two units to really dominate the game. For example, goons with maybe zealots. I tried arguing that the incredibly powerful heroes that can turn the entire game around in one go is a big minus for that game, but they seemed to think that it just added additional levels of strategy. Speaking of which, they seemed to think that you could use more military strategy in BFME2 and virtually none in Starcraft. Basically that if you have higher apm, if you can use the mechanics better to throw bigger armies against your enemy that you'll always win. That it would be impossible to ever beat Flash unless you were as fast as him. With BFME2 on the other hand, they claim that you can beat them by using some strategy, instead of using a cookie-cutter build and executing it faster than the opponent.
Yes, I know the rage this incites in all of us due to the stupidity of most of it, but I'm horrible articulating my thoughts on the game (personally I believe BFME2 is just another RTS game), so I need some help (BTW, the main guy is in the debate society...).
93% of Russian population doesn't have computers. And half of the ones that do won't have a proper internet connection to play this.
Apparently someone (like Latham) doesn't read the OP before posting, this challenges the point OPs friends made that 93% of Russia's population play this game (which is comical in itself)
huh? i don't even know that game, so what the fuck.
and believe me.. 70.000.000 people + the russia thing is such an obvious, dumb and blatant lie, that it actually made me laugh
I'm not really able to argument about this, but every child knows SC:BW is the deepest rts that exists. there is no game that requires so much apm + multitask + !strategy! (which includes mindgames etc.) that there is literally no game equal.
LOOOL... just watched a video about it. this game sucks ass dude. it's pure a click on one another and some heroes in the big bash. this sucks so damn much, you can play it with about 10 apm. i'm not even gonna bother to think about any arguments. you shouldn't talk to them about this topic, cause clearly they're newbs. please quote them my post
On May 01 2010 03:16 condoriano wrote: 93% of Russian population doesn't have computers. And half of the ones that do won't have a proper internet connection to play this.
Does it hurt? I mean pulling the random facts out of your ass.
To OP: Get new friends. If you want to find "logical arguments" check the "News" "Final Edits" and "Articles" sections on TL. Going to wikipedia or liquipedia might also do the trick. OR just cite fomos.kr as source for everything -____-;
Just ask them for numbers, or team names, or tournament coverage or anything regarding BFME competitive play. Most likely they will not be able to provide evidence of a competitive scene even close to Starcrafts.
Also, show them a VOD of Boxer from way back, when BFME wasn't even thought of.
On May 01 2010 03:16 condoriano wrote: 93% of Russian population doesn't have computers. And half of the ones that do won't have a proper internet connection to play this.
Does it hurt? I mean pulling the random facts out of your ass.
I pulled out a random fact that it's less than 93%? Are you serious accusing me with this?
Well... I can't really get new friends, considering I'm on a tiny college and these are the guys I get to play games with. We do play BW as well (and intend to play SC2 next fall) but a number of them prefer BFME2. I can't play online too much either, since it's a 15 minute walk to a place with slow internet that doesn't block SC (as to them opening port 6112, probably won't happen).
If anyone can roll out actual game statistics, that would be awesome.
On May 01 2010 03:28 Belegorm wrote: Well... I can't really get new friends, considering I'm on a tiny college and these are the guys I get to play games with. We do play BW as well (and intend to play SC2 next fall) but a number of them prefer BFME2. I can't play online too much either, since it's a 15 minute walk to a place with slow internet that doesn't block SC (as to them opening port 6112, probably won't happen).
If anyone can roll out actual game statistics, that would be awesome.
On May 01 2010 03:28 Belegorm wrote: Well... I can't really get new friends, considering I'm on a tiny college and these are the guys I get to play games with. We do play BW as well (and intend to play SC2 next fall) but a number of them prefer BFME2. I can't play online too much either, since it's a 15 minute walk to a place with slow internet that doesn't block SC (as to them opening port 6112, probably won't happen).
If anyone can roll out actual game statistics, that would be awesome.
check out the Liquipedia, you'll find out... everything about BW
I looked up the wikipedia articles first, lol. I can't seem to find the number of sales for BFME2 though, is there any way to figure that out?
And please stop with the "ur friends are retards" posts, that not only doesn't help the argument but there is a possibility of them seeing this thread and then it'll hurt your credibility.
On May 01 2010 03:40 Belegorm wrote: I looked up the wikipedia articles first, lol. I can't seem to find the number of sales for BFME2 though, is there any way to figure that out?
And please stop with the "ur friends are retards" posts, that not only doesn't help the argument but there is a possibility of them seeing this thread and then it'll hurt your credibility.
It says BFME2 was 10th best selling game that year or something like that, which means it was nowhere close to real big sellers lol.
On May 01 2010 03:40 Belegorm wrote: I looked up the wikipedia articles first, lol. I can't seem to find the number of sales for BFME2 though, is there any way to figure that out?
Why not just show them Team Liquid? The site literally tells almost every secret of StarCraft. South Korea should be an obvious answer to how popular StarCraft is. WCG is too...
Nameable players around the world. No strategy in StarCraft? I don't ever remember BME2 being very strategic at all with the limited choices of units. Let alone the game itself is practically dead in my opinion...
I think you're friends are morons and may living under an electronic rock. That or they are hardcore LOTR fans that don't like sci-fi.
They claim that Starcraft was never really that big for a long time, both to the general population and to the gaming population; that Starcraft and the RTS genre in general didn't really get big until BFME2 came out. They claimed that over 70 million people play BFME2 rise of the witch king currently, with multimillion dollar tournaments, and that 93% of Russia's population plays the game.
That's interesting. Over 10 million people, in Russia alone, play BFME2. Guys, I think we are playing the wrong RTS. Let's all switch over immediately, considering how factual this data is.
They also have million dollar tournaments! God, what did Flash make in the OSL last season? 40k? Wow, starcraft is such a chump RTS.
I actually played it with my friends, it is.. nice, but certainly not competitive. Dominated them after a few tries, heroes and abilities are game breakers as well as some units.
one argument about popularity: google both. sc gets about 21 mil, bfme2 around 3 mil... even asuming that sc2 has around 30% of those sites (i think this is a over estimation) that would still leave starcraft very much in the lead... i hope this might help in your argument
Russia has a population of 142 million people. According to wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runet#Mass_usage) apprx 37.5 million people used the internet in the 6 months leading up to June 2009. So only about 1/4 of the population even uses the internet.
So it would be very difficult for 93% of the Russian population to play any online game. However, it's possible that they mean 93% of the internet population, but either way get a source or call them bullshitters.
On May 01 2010 04:13 Radfield wrote: Russia has a population of 142 million people. According to wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runet#Mass_usage) apprx 37.5 million people used the internet in the 6 months leading up to June 2009. So only about 1/4 of the population even uses the internet.
So it would be very difficult for 93% of the Russian population to play any online game. However, it's possible that they mean 93% of the internet population, but either way get a source or call them bullshitters.
Most people are still using either dial-up or "internet cards" with really slow connection speed, most of them won't even be able to play this (sup Latham).
Lol ive been to Russia many times, people there don't like bfme2 its not even in their internet cafes. Russia is all CS players. Maybe your friends need a swift kick to their jugular's.
On May 01 2010 04:16 Kyuukyuu wrote: Your friends are awesome and you are easily trolled.
It could be that or could be something like "oh, they have tournaments with 10k prizes? well.. WE HAVE MULTIMILLOM DOLLAR TURNAMENTS.. yeah. Oh, it's biggest sport in Korea? WELL, IN RUSSIA 93% OF PEOPLE PLAY THIS" which is a lot worse. I can picture some idiot making stuff up as he goes, someone who only capable of playing fastest on bnet.
For what it's worth, I polled 100 random people on my Facebook (about half of them were gamers, half of them not), and 95 of them have heard of StarCraft... 17 of them had heard of the BFME series. Only 6 had ever played BFME games, and 28 had played StarCraft games. All 6 of the people who have played BFME have also played SC, and they all thought SC was better in terms of strategy and gameplay.
And StarCraft is much more popular on a global scale.
While all of this doesn't necessarily mean StarCraft is automatically better (though I don't doubt for a second that it IS), BFME would be far more popular if it were as good as pro-BFME trolls say it is o.O
The 93% of Russia plays etc is definitely a lie, they know you like Starcraft and are trolling you really really hard. I've never even heard of the game lol.
Is this actually a serious thread? Just the fact that they claim a videogame has multimillion dollar tournaments should be enough to tell you that they're full of shit. No videogame is anywhere near that scale. Also, comparing one of the greatest, best-selling, and critically acclaimed RTS games of all time and one that was good enough to pioneer eSports on a scale which had never before been seen to some obscure game based on a book/film franchise which never even came close to topping the sales charts is stupid... I don't understand how this is even an argument unless your friends are either completely ignorant or delusional..
I think in the end it comes down to the fact that somewhere in Korea, playing starcraft is getting a guy money and sex. Ask them if BFME does that + Show Spoiler +
In all seriousness don't. I think they're trolling you and you care too much
On May 01 2010 05:01 Kenpachi wrote: show them WCG crowds because theyre big every year. also tell stories about SC like how sAviOr dominated for 2 years and got curbstomped by Bisu.
and don't forget to ask your friends if BFME2 is included in those games in WCG, because if it does, it's gonna be a boring world
The game was released in 2006, which is like 8 years after the professional SC scene began so obviously any claim that this game sparked the SC pro scene is nonsense. The 70 million player thing is such obvious bullshit considering the fact that not even World Of Warcraft has anywhere NEAR that number of players. Starcraft has sold over 11.5 million copies to date and that's not counting players who play without a key over LAN or on private servers. I doubt LOTR even comes close to that. I don't know how old your friends are, but SC was huge and highly anticipated even before its release because of the success of the Warcraft franchise so I don't know what they're talking about when they claim it wasn't big or important to gamers. SC was the #1 selling PC game the year of its release and it was completely mainstream back then just like CoD and Halo are today. How is that not big or important?
This thread prompted me to go look up stuff about this lord of the rings game, and to try and find userbase comparisons between it and starcraft. Said another way, this thread prompted me to waste my time.
You are troll or your friends are the most massive morons on the planet. Ignore them.
BTW, when I try to use sales to support the argument that SC is far more popular, they just say people pirate the game, so sales are not really indicative of the population
On May 01 2010 05:26 Belegorm wrote: BTW, when I try to use sales to support the argument that SC is far more popular, they just say people pirate the game, so sales are not really indicative of the population
The troll is evolving!
But seriously man, why don't you just school them in BFME2? I remember playing it for fun during some downtime at a SC tourney I was at and it seemed simplistic enough. Just do some research, learn some builds, and rape them.
tell them to go play 2 full days against any A/B rank player, and if they win a single game without proxy 2gate, they can say that starcraft has no depth.
Thing is that I don't enjoy the game too much, and there's currently one guy who manages to win almost every time with dwarves. Speaking of build orders, they believe that it doesn't matter what kind of "build" you use, strategy will let you win, even with low apm.
On that point though, where the heck can I find build orders for middle earth? Whenever I google BFME2 I get loads of results from amazon and the like, no TL like sites. I usually play men (though I might switch to elves just to prove the game's unbalanced; maybe make some uber hero and use some cheap strategy to beat them).
On May 01 2010 05:41 Wings wrote: tell them to go play 2 full days against any A/B rank player, and if they win a single game without proxy 2gate, they can say that starcraft has no depth.
Thing is they claim that it's all about a player's ability to do things faster than his opponent in SC, instead of using strategy
What game are we talking about? SCII or SCI? If BFME2 is a game it must be a game for girls that stands for best friends, more losers for everyone else!
edit: but seriously, these guys are trolling you and they just don't want to get pawned by you in star craft.
Well now first, he says that I'm not checking the Russian or German sites for stuff on Starcraft, and also that I should do something better with my time other than arguing that Starcraft is better, and spending so much time on Starcraft.
Thing is, they're not trolling me. It seems like one guy at least seriously dislikes Starcraft, he plays it because it's the only thing that we can run on all of our computers (not to mention the seniors that only play SC, which we won't have with us next semester).
On May 01 2010 05:58 Belegorm wrote: Thing is, they're not trolling me. It seems like one guy at least seriously dislikes Starcraft, he plays it because it's the only thing that we can run on all of our computers (not to mention the seniors that only play SC, which we won't have with us next semester).
On May 01 2010 05:58 Belegorm wrote: Thing is, they're not trolling me. It seems like one guy at least seriously dislikes Starcraft, he plays it because it's the only thing that we can run on all of our computers (not to mention the seniors that only play SC, which we won't have with us next semester).
They also claim that Starcraft isn't a game as deep (this is what really annoys me). That you basically have to end up using one or two units to really dominate the game. For example, goons with maybe zealots.
Ask them to try to get to C level on Iccup using only goons and maybe zealots. Actually, let them just try to get D+
They also claim that Starcraft isn't a game as deep (this is what really annoys me). That you basically have to end up using one or two units to really dominate the game. For example, goons with maybe zealots.
Ask them to try to get to C level on Iccup using only goons and maybe zealots. Actually, let them just try to get D+
If I asked them to reach C level they'd just say that whoever they were playing against were simply faster and thus could produce a bigger army faster.
Anyway, it's a choice between an argument and a friendship, and on this tiny campus (where once again, it takes a long walk to be able to get to internet to use iccup), I'd pick the friendship. I'm really hoping he gets SC2 over the summer and likes that better (though I may have made him have a bias against the game).
Hm i dont know about BFME2 never played it and have no idea if this game is any popular.
Would be really cool to see a list about online traffic.
Only things i know:
Starcraft 1 B.net ~16-20K players online all time + ~ 1-2K on Iccup Warcraft 3 TFT B.net ~ 30-45K players online all time ~ 1,5K on iccup Counterstrike Source 50-70K online on steam at all times HON Open Beta ~ 30-40K online at all times
BFME2 utilizes a clear "cookie-cutter" rock, paper, scissors formula to determine the winner in a fight between battallions, in SC, with good positioning, micro, and timing, almost any "hard" counter can be overcome. That ALONE, should destroy their argument. Barring that:
1. SCBW has existed competitively for going on 12 years, and is STILL going strong even with it's sequel right around the corner. 2. Given that you play BW, just kick their asses at BFME2, proceed to explain that SC is the harder game, and then have them try that and wreck them at it. You win either way. If they say you won (at BFME) because you played faster than them, it invalidates their argument regarding macro, if not, they have to admit that SC is harder on ALL levels, making it the superior RTS. 3. "RTS never got big until BFME2 came out", Have they heard of AOE The Conquerors, DoW, CnC, or Warcraft? Obviously been living under a rock for the greater part of the late 90's and early 2000's. All of those were huge RTS games, that I still go back and play, and if they've heard of them or played them, then they've just lied regarding RTS popularity. 4. EA made the game. Case Closed.
On May 01 2010 03:14 J1.au wrote: Sounds to me like they were trolling you.
Actully i don't think they were, I've got friends who will argue that CS:S requires much more skill and strategic insight. And ofc because Starcraft is 10years+ old and have bad gfx, CS:S HAS to be a better game, right?
I guess your friends just ran out of arguments and started pulling shit out the sleeves. It happens, some people just don't know when the battle is lost.
If I asked them to reach C level they'd just say that whoever they were playing against were simply faster and thus could produce a bigger army faster.
I really feel this could be a troll, because you're not really trying any of our advice it feels like. People gave you statistics on some things, such as how many people play in Russia. If you're friends are refuting obvious facts from reputable sources, they are either true morons or more likely trolling the crap out of you.
Fairly easily refuted; seeing as how there are even B players that have little over 100 APM, and they can curbstomp D/D+ players with 300 APM. Even conisdering that if a D player has 300 APM he is probably spamming a good bit, this even holds fairly true at high foriegner levels or even pro-levels. Also, if it were just about getting a bigger army faster, you only need like 80-100 APM to macro perfectly if thats all you focus on. According to them you could just macro up, focusing only on that, and then go attack and win. You could also demonstrate the need for propr scouting and things like that, by triple expanding against them and the watching them roll you with their inital units; or demonstrate the importantce of knowing what to make when. You could have like 80 food in tanks, and roll some massively larger number of goons pretty easily, whereas if you changed them all to zealots the battle outcome would be decidely different.
Well now first, he says that I'm not checking the Russian or German sites for stuff on Starcraft
Why would you need to check Russian and German sites?
They claim that Starcraft was never really that big for a long time, both to the general population and to the gaming population; that Starcraft and the RTS genre in general didn't really get big until BFME2 came out.
Obvious bullshit is obvious. The pro scene for starcraft was alive and running strong well before 2006. For instance: . Yeah, that doesn't look too big to me either hundreds if not thousands of fans, professional annoucers, stages, just your average run of the mill game, no? Starcraft proscene started before 2000 I believe and become very popular around Boxer's time, which is way before 2006. If they are honestly saying this they are completely ignorant.
They claimed that over 70 million people play BFME2 rise of the witch king currently, with multimillion dollar tournaments, and that 93% of Russia's population plays the game.
Uh huh. More people play BFME2 than WoW, i don't think so. Not to mention, if this many people played BFME2 then you'd think it would be something most people have heard of, but it isn't. I hadn't heard of it until you posted this. I'm sorry man, but if you're friends aren't making this statistics up on the spot, which they almost have to be since they are such blatant bullshit, then they are seriously misinformed or just dumb.
As a final note, if you're friends are that hung up on mechanics = skill then just explain/show them how various builds play out against players of similar mechanics. Its easy to see things like if zerg goes 3 hatch before pool and terran goes 2 rax pressure, the zerg is going to have a difficult time to say the least. If you show them games of the same skill, that eliminates the "he's faster" argument and then you can actually explain the strategy that is going on. Not to mention obvious things like the importance of flanking, sneak attacks, attacking production, high ground mechanics, etc. Strategy is starcraft is certainly there and shouldn't be that hard to explain to someone.
I honestly haven't heard of this game before you posted this thread.
Since it is a fact that BFME2 has less depth, strategy, and overall can't compare to the skill required for SCBW, simply rape them over and over in BFME2 with your superior RTS skills.
Then proceed to play SC2 without hotkeys and slower APM and beat them with it too.
Verbal argument won't win any of these fanboys over.
You don't need to argue. Just enjoy both games. Stop convincing anyone because each of them has a different unique game-play that their fans and players enjoy. If you insist to argue you and your friends will get nonstop disagreement.
"hey claimed that over 70 million people play BFME2 rise of the witch king currently, with multimillion dollar tournaments, and that 93% of Russia's population plays the game."
EPT
