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On February 12 2009 04:00 Signet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2009 03:37 d_so wrote:
likewise, toss needs to find another way to hold their expansion without cannons. that much of an investment in static defense is just retarded regardless of race: if zerg built 5 to 6 sunkens the moment their expansion hatch was finished, how much shit would we be talking about zerg's wasting minerals? or if terran built 3 bunkers before their FE command was finished?
and yeah, you can flame me because i'm not coming up with a solution myself and am just pointing out the idiocy of the status quo. (whatever; even if i came up with something, you wouldnt follow it till a pro pulled it off successively anyway.) the current forge cannons FE toss build IS retarded in pvz, mostly because it allows zerg to dictate the flow of the game early on and toss is forced to play passive/reactionary. Terrans build a crazy amount of turrets to defend muta harass. Since m&m doesn't get raped by ling/hydra, T can hold their front line against Z. P doesn't have that luxury. P army cannot stand against a Z army until there are heavy gas units involved, and to get a critical mass of those, P needs the second base early. Hence forge FE. It works on almost every map. (including Destination, which I don't think is imba ZvP) If you think forge FE is retarded in pvz in general, then you don't understand pvz. 2base zerg has a stronger economy than 1base toss lings > zeals hydras > goons (unlike the tanks/zeals/vultz/goons dynamic, lings will also beat goons and microed hydras will beat zeals) With the exception of a map like Neo Requiem, P needs 2 base to play anything but an allin timing attack/tech rush against Z.
look, i'm not talking about static defense that is eventually built. through the course of the game, even relatively early in the game, all three races start to invest more in static defense. TvZ, T turrets, Z sunkens, PvZ, P cannons, Z sunkens. But the issue is when. Toss wants to be in a situation where they only have to build 2 cannons within the two-three minute window after their nexus. But because they allow zerg to dictate the pace, they're forced to build excessive cannons if they cannot keep their scouting probe alive.
Why are excessive cannons early on in the game bad?
1.) The more cannons you have, the less units you have. which means toss has to play defensively until they can get sair reaver
2.) The more cannons you have, the less money you have. obvious, yes. but if we're gonna bust a nut over zerg getting forced to build x amount of sunkens, we have to acknowledge the steep nominal photon cannons and the effect it has on the economy (and yeah, it's worse for zergs since they lose the worker. but the mineral cost is the same). A toss building 5! cannons with his nexus (kal vs luxury, msl), is akin to a zerg building 4 sunkens as soon as his hatchery is finished.
for a case example, let's look at the example of the "Six Dragons" vs Luxury.
on Friday, January the 16th, Luxury plays in the OSL Group J. He unveils a series of "cheesy", aggressive strats, much to the chagrin of the fans here.
However, on the very next day in Winner's League, KTF vs Samsung Kahn, the"Dragons" of Khan react to Luxury's aggressive play from the day prior. Jangbi builds 3 cannons with his nexus, Stork tries to get away with just two but lets zerglings into his base. a few days later on KTF vs SKT, Luxury 5 pools bisu. a few days later, in his MSL Group, Kal builds 5 cannons with his nexus.
in each of these games, toss either spends too much money on static defense or pays the consequence of not having enough and pays with probes (another example of this is bisu savior at msl). This forces toss to play extremely passive until they get their sair reavers. at this point of the game, protoss's chance of winning is hugely dependent on how successful the reaver drops are. if unsuccessful, or if they lose their sairs, then hydras + muta snipes > Toss.
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this is why i say protoss needs something new: in Protoss FE, they have two choices regarding cannons:
1.) Build few
2.) Build too much.
against a good zerg, BOTH options are losing options. build too few you lose probes. build too much you spend too much and you're stuck in your base and zerg can contain you/expand all over the map.
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United States5937 Posts
Interesting, everyone who won last week, lost this week. Well, except for Tester, but he just sucks I guess.
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On February 12 2009 05:22 Titusmaster6 wrote:
Interesting, everyone who won last week, lost this week. Well, except for Tester, but he just sucks I guess.
Jaedong won last week too against Luxury.
Edit: Nevermind, I misread your post.
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ahhh...that is depressing for Stork..
He went 0-2 in his group...most likely it's him whose gonna drop out
Yarnc with the sexyy sexyy 2-0 in his group
July vs Bisu will determine the fate of this group
but..Bisu is playing July on ToTM...Very Z > P
should be interesting
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On February 12 2009 06:10 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
ahhh...that is depressing for Stork..
He went 0-2 in his group...most likely it's him whose gonna drop out
Yarnc with the sexyy sexyy 2-0 in his group
July vs Bisu will determine the fate of this group
but..Bisu is playing July on ToTM...Very Z > P
should be interesting
Eh? Stork didn't go 0-2, he went 1-1.
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On February 12 2009 05:22 Titusmaster6 wrote:
Interesting, everyone who won last week, lost this week. Well, except for Tester, but he just sucks I guess.
1st week's players > 2nd week's players
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I guess this put  Jaedong in a pretty good position to make it into Ro8. His next match on the OSL is GGPlay, correct?
If so, then he will probably 3-0. Quite the stark contrast with the mind-blowingly difficult MSL group of death (F) he was put in.
Also, I can barely wait for  Bisu vs July. Should be pretty good.
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On February 12 2009 06:16 Shiznick wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2009 06:10 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
ahhh...that is depressing for Stork..
He went 0-2 in his group...most likely it's him whose gonna drop out
Yarnc with the sexyy sexyy 2-0 in his group
July vs Bisu will determine the fate of this group
but..Bisu is playing July on ToTM...Very Z > P
should be interesting
Eh? Stork didn't go 0-2, he went 1-1.
??
He lost to bisu on medusa
and just lost to yarnc
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gooo swarm!
wanna see jaedong going all way through for epic finals!
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u gotta skate8152 Posts
that was rather frustrating to watch :/. UpMagiC should have played standard.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On February 12 2009 06:41 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2009 06:16 Shiznick wrote:On February 12 2009 06:10 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
ahhh...that is depressing for Stork..
He went 0-2 in his group...most likely it's him whose gonna drop out
Yarnc with the sexyy sexyy 2-0 in his group
July vs Bisu will determine the fate of this group
but..Bisu is playing July on ToTM...Very Z > P
should be interesting
Eh? Stork didn't go 0-2, he went 1-1. ?? He lost to bisu on medusa and just lost to yarnc
He beat yarnc
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On February 12 2009 06:45 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2009 06:41 DreaM)XeRO wrote:On February 12 2009 06:16 Shiznick wrote:On February 12 2009 06:10 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
ahhh...that is depressing for Stork..
He went 0-2 in his group...most likely it's him whose gonna drop out
Yarnc with the sexyy sexyy 2-0 in his group
July vs Bisu will determine the fate of this group
but..Bisu is playing July on ToTM...Very Z > P
should be interesting
Eh? Stork didn't go 0-2, he went 1-1. ?? He lost to bisu on medusa and just lost to yarnc He beat yarnc
ooo
shit
ahahahah MY BAD
;D
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On February 12 2009 06:41 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2009 06:16 Shiznick wrote:On February 12 2009 06:10 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
ahhh...that is depressing for Stork..
He went 0-2 in his group...most likely it's him whose gonna drop out
Yarnc with the sexyy sexyy 2-0 in his group
July vs Bisu will determine the fate of this group
but..Bisu is playing July on ToTM...Very Z > P
should be interesting
Eh? Stork didn't go 0-2, he went 1-1. ?? He lost to bisu on medusa and just lost to yarnc
Stork won, he beat yarnc.
Should be an interesting next round > Can't wait to see it!
Edit: beat!
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On February 12 2009 06:10 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
July vs Bisu will determine the fate of this group
but..Bisu is playing July on ToTM...Very Z > P
should be interesting
Especially since Bisu mentioned a secret strat he prepared at the start of the OSL (don't recall exact wording). If it's one time he'll have to show that off it is now. Of course, if he's not bluffing.
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On February 12 2009 06:10 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
ahhh...that is depressing for Stork..
He went 0-2 in his group...most likely it's him whose gonna drop out
Yarnc with the sexyy sexyy 2-0 in his group
July vs Bisu will determine the fate of this group
but..Bisu is playing July on ToTM...Very Z > P
should be interesting
Actually July vs Bisu is on return of the king, which is balanced zvp.
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On February 12 2009 07:35 zhaoli86 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2009 06:10 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
ahhh...that is depressing for Stork..
He went 0-2 in his group...most likely it's him whose gonna drop out
Yarnc with the sexyy sexyy 2-0 in his group
July vs Bisu will determine the fate of this group
but..Bisu is playing July on ToTM...Very Z > P
should be interesting
Actually July vs Bisu is on return of the king, which is balanced zvp.
oops
i stand corrected
Bisu 2-0 easy
;D
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Nah, July will beat Bisu, and then both matches next week are win-and-in.
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Stork i have faith in you.
Please make the finals and if everything goes as planed
BEAT BISU!!!!!!
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On February 12 2009 06:46 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2009 06:45 T.O.P. wrote:On February 12 2009 06:41 DreaM)XeRO wrote:On February 12 2009 06:16 Shiznick wrote:On February 12 2009 06:10 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
ahhh...that is depressing for Stork..
He went 0-2 in his group...most likely it's him whose gonna drop out
Yarnc with the sexyy sexyy 2-0 in his group
July vs Bisu will determine the fate of this group
but..Bisu is playing July on ToTM...Very Z > P
should be interesting
Eh? Stork didn't go 0-2, he went 1-1. ?? He lost to bisu on medusa and just lost to yarnc He beat yarnc ooo shit ahahahah MY BAD ;D
I bet you read the predictions tab.
dont worry, i did too. lol
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On February 11 2009 20:10 disciple wrote:
yeah how awesome winning a ZvP on map that is 11-2 in this MU...jeez
Well it makes up for all the others then doesnt it.
Edit: to extend my post a bit here, shouldn't Kal not have attacked with the goons/zealots? it did not achieve anything. Then he would have been able to defend.
2 entrances to the nat cant be that big of a problem can it?
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EPT
