*Luxury is 10-4 on Andromeda *BackHo is 7-3 on Andromeda *Jaedong is 40-11 all time ZvZ. *FireFist is the only player in the KTF lineup without a winning record for his MU tonight. *Jaedong is the only player in the Lecaf lineup with a winning record for his MU tonight.
I predict Lecaf in 4 or 5. The way flash has been playing lately makes him look mortal enough that I can see him dropping a game to HiyA. Lomo has also been looking good, I can easily see him beating tempest. Lux will beat backho, unless backho cheeses well, and JD has a good chance of beating FireFist. If it goes to ace, I think (hope) lecaf can take it. Lecaf fighting!
I hope it goes to 5 games so we can see JD>Flash. Flash<Hiya Luxury>Backho (The first two games's outcome may easily be switched) Firefist<<<<...<<<Jaedong Tempest>Lomo (He practiced a lot for terrans in his MSL group) Flash < Jaedong.
Very nice match ! Dunno on which I should bet in GosuBet :| Analysis:
Flash vs HiyA: Flash is rather unstable lately and with his tricky mind everything can happen, although you have to take under account he's still the leading force of progaming along with JD. Flash is good at cheeses but then it would be safer with his solid play. HiyA playing 1st and, what's more, against someone like Flash may surprise with a cheese as well. Flash is overally a better player but it's StarCraft, TvT, pro level, HiyA. You never know. My bet: Flash.
Luxury vs BackHo: Luxury is doing v.good lately but BackHo also showed he's not a random noob but a formidable adversary. Still his record vs Z doesn't allow us to think of him as a favorite, especially not against a zerg as good as Park Chan SoO. My bet: Luxury
FireFist vs Jaedong: Seems obvious at first glance but on a closer look you might not bet your life on Mr Lee. FireFist has already showed he's not a whipping boy and may surprise you Anytime. He won some, he lost some but certainly he's a material for a champion. But on the other side we have Lee Jae Dong who needs no introduction and we all know what he's capable of. His record speaks for itself. 78.43% winratio against Z ? Gimme a break -.- My bet: Jaedong
Tempest vs Lomo: Probably the most interesting bo1 of this match, at least for me. Reasons? Rather new players on the pro scene, looked sharp lately, we dunno what they are capable of yet. We all knew Tempest way before he started his pro career. He was well known for his macro but that was it, it seemed he lacked sth to jump a certain level but now it looks he's somehow found it playing for KTF. How much better can he be ? No clue. Nevertheless, as far as PvT goes, macro is a key aspect of this match-up and it gives edge to Tempest. Lomo, a TvZ specialist under construction you might say, yet he loses to type-b (not a shame at all but a surprise for sure, more the OGN Z performance lately) and at the 'same' time he defeats free. His TvP cant be that bad it seems. Will he be able to raise his TvP at least to the level of his TvZ ? Who knows. All I know is that Lomo is a more experienced progamer and this may be a key factor here. It also depends what the results will be at this moment(2-1 but for which side). It's so hard to place a bet on either of these players, I give them 50/50 respectively: Tempest: macro, Lomo's TvP; Lomo: experience, map. My bet: no bet
Summary: In my humble opinion its going to be 3-1 for KTF or an ACE match: Flash vs Jaedong ? Yes please ! Overally KTF are slight favorites here imo but they disappoint as much as they surprise, therefore betting is much harder than it would seem :<
On October 15 2008 11:18 Realpenguin wrote: Flash < HiyA Luxury < BackHo FireFist > Jaedong Tempest > Lomo Flash < Dongrae KTF 2-3 Lecaf I THINK TONIGHT WILL BE FULL OF UPSETS (on second thought, this may be why my liquibet status is so horrible)
But seriously, I think it will end up KTF 3-1 Lecaf. Flash, Lux, and JD should be autowin, but Tempest vs. Lomo could end up either way.
lol, dongrae. Lecaf has at least 3 better terrans they can use for ace.
On October 15 2008 13:08 Sunyveil wrote: for some reason, I only get a black screen from the sports player. Is there any troubleshooting guide for it available?
Did you click the OP's link or mine? What does it say under the player, Ready? There is no guide because all you need is WMP, and there is a link to download the latest version right under it. Are you using IE or Firefox or what? Try updating WMP, using IE, and clicking my link instead of the OP's.
At the same time flash makes his big push in the middle with a flank and decimates Hiya's forces. Hiya drops the tanks on flash's forces but its not enough and they get destroyed. Hiya GG's.
I really, really wish Daum would start working again. It buffers so slowly now that anything is totally unwatchable. The sports stream works, but man... =\
On October 15 2008 13:19 Cobalt wrote: I really, really wish Daum would start working again. It buffers so slowly now that anything is totally unwatchable. The sports stream works, but man... =\
I had the same issue until I upgraded Windows Media Player to the newest version. Now it runs perfectly. Give it a shot.
Forge finishes as zerglings start morphing, lux has gas up as well. Lings kill backho's probe quickly, catching it in the mineral line. Backho has 2 cannons up at his nat, starts his nexus.
Another scouting probe is quickly deterred by Luxury's Zerglings. It serves to delay Luxury's lings, however. Backho walls off with a Gateway. Lings attempt to sneak by and succeed!
Four lings currently in Backho's natural/main, halting mining. Meanwhile, Luxury's nat is completely online. Another scouting Probe denied. Luxury's lings are currently pressuring the nat Nexus but are deterred by Backho's first Zealots.
Overlord is continuing to scout. Lings have been dealt with. Backho now has two zealots blocking off his choke (stream buffers again). Luxury has taken his mineral only and is getting Lair. Backho adds Stargate and Robotics Facility while taking his second gas. Lings deny another scouting Probe.
Spire is finished - so is Stargate. First Corsair is being built - Backho has cannons in his main mineral line so he should be safe against any Mutalisk harass. First Corsair is out and is flying north towards Luxury's base.
Mutalisks are out, they take out the two Cannons at the main and halt mining. Luxury has stopped producing Mutalisks and is going straight for Hydralisks. More Corsairs are out for Backho as he rebuilds the cannons at his main.
Sorry for the shoddy commentatin - I'm literally watching screenshots of it because I can't stream.
Someone should make a new thread about this, a goldmine of creativity in that. Lol @ AttackZerg Just think of the money they could make off of exclusive Bisu vs Jaedong practice games.
On October 15 2008 13:54 SingletonWilliam wrote: I don't see a purpose of LRing a match between a no-name zerg and Jaedong. I might as well copy and paste rape 9000 times.
Might as well.
KTF guy going fast lair, 2nd hatch in main while JD goes for nat
LOL Firefist got gas earlier than JD, and JD got his spire up before him. Firefist had 2 hatcheries in main and got out microed by 2 zerglings and then more zerglings coming from his base. That's what group D at WCG has in store for them
key points the zealot missing the free hit on the vulture as it went back to the base, and the zealot dying before killing that last vulture lol, both would have killed.
On October 15 2008 14:25 CDRdude wrote: Holy shit, I just now realize that I've been saying Midas as an ace for KTF >_< Wow, I'm really dumb. I don't know what I was thinking.
We....we thought....um....yeah...you were just joking right?
I mean, KTF send out flash all the time. period. Lecaf realises that flash has been losing to zerg lately.. bungled out of osl and msl by zergs.. Jaedong was the obvious choice.
On October 15 2008 14:33 Tyxiquale wrote: should've guessed it was Flash vs JD.
I mean, KTF send out flash all the time. period. Lecaf realises that flash has been losing to zerg lately.. bungled out of osl and msl by zergs.. Jaedong was the obvious choice.
So obvious how Jd can win, any 2hatch strategy. They've been all the rage lately. I fully expect this game to span 7 pages minimum. Even if there's cheese. Which there better not be.
looking at the replay, the two dragoons, shouldnt have move back. Tempest was 2 dragoon vs 4 vulture (on a uphill) shouldve cut Lomo's mineral supply so he cant get ebay and turret. that was fucking noob.
On October 15 2008 14:40 Tyxiquale wrote: anyone else think lomo looks like a girl? Its his eyes.. if he had any makeup on, he'd fit right in as a fashion model on the catwalk.
I think pretty much everybody has mentioned that at least once in their stay at TL
On October 15 2008 14:40 Tyxiquale wrote: anyone else think lomo looks like a girl? Its his eyes.. if he had any makeup on, he'd fit right in as a fashion model on the catwalk.
Have you seen that OZ promo vid of their members dressing in drag? o_o;;
On October 15 2008 14:40 Tyxiquale wrote: anyone else think lomo looks like a girl? Its his eyes.. if he had any makeup on, he'd fit right in as a fashion model on the catwalk.
Have you seen that OZ promo vid of their members dressing in drag? o_o;;
lol as much as I am JD fan, I feel sorry for Flash. The poor kid is crying I think. I'm kind of mad at JD for not giving us a long epic game but still happy for his win
On October 15 2008 14:40 Tyxiquale wrote: anyone else think lomo looks like a girl? Its his eyes.. if he had any makeup on, he'd fit right in as a fashion model on the catwalk.
Have you seen that OZ promo vid of their members dressing in drag? o_o;;
On October 15 2008 14:50 EvoChamber wrote: As a Lecaf fan, I'm completely satisfied with this outcome. As a Starcraft fan, I'm kinda disappointed.
Wow.. I think that sums it up right there..
i'm disappointed as both a flash fan, ktf fan and a starcraft fan... wtf is he thinking? He really needs to end this puberty thing he's going through, and fucking grow a pair!
As for the result, the 5th match was a huge disappointment. There's quite a large gulf of quality between the two rivals currently, and Flash's greedy play cost him again.
On October 15 2008 14:50 EvoChamber wrote: As a Lecaf fan, I'm completely satisfied with this outcome. As a Starcraft fan, I'm kinda disappointed.
Wow.. I think that sums it up right there..
i'm disappointed as both a flash fan, ktf fan and a starcraft fan... wtf is he thinking? He really needs to end this puberty thing he's going through, and fucking grow a pair!
Well, FE vs Jaedong would have been pretty ballsy...if it worked.
To be fair, this wasn't only a BO win. Jaedong read Flash's mind perfectly. Harmony is a large map, which favors early expansions over rush builds, and it's known to favor Terran in general. Flash thought that if he could get off a 14cc, he could win the game using the huge macro boost and the map to his advantage. Jaedong keyed in on this and did the only build that could counter 14cc on such a large map. So....it's not like there wasn't strategy, just that it was all done before the game and not in-game.
On October 15 2008 14:53 Vasoline73 wrote: WOW. Flash man. Can't say I expected any difference in the results.. but I didn't think he would 14CC -_-
This was like the 2nd or 3rd time he's done a two-handed face palm in the past few weeks. I think he's doing it for show and not thinking "oh gee, that plan failed horribly, let's not do it again".
and to think flash was earning a bit of my respect back after abstaining from 14cc for a week... but then this clusterfuck of a game happened. jaedong ftw (his new fist pumping is awesome)
On October 15 2008 14:55 EvoChamber wrote: To be fair, this wasn't only a BO win. Jaedong read Flash's mind perfectly. Harmony is a large map, which favors early expansions over rush builds, and it's known to favor Terran in general. Flash thought that if he could get off a 14cc, he could win the game using the huge macro boost and the map to his advantage. Jaedong keyed in on this and did the only build that could counter 14cc on such a large map. So....it's not like there wasn't strategy, just that it was all done before the game and not in-game.
LOL, i'll be the odd one out Nah dude your wrong. this is just straight BO loss if you cant see that its kinda silly, if FS can call sea's loss to fantasy a BO loss then im calling this a BO loss, he beat hiya so im not dissapointed. BL my little monster, go smash fantasy in gom and some random MBC player
On October 15 2008 14:58 ArC_man wrote: Flash is trash now
Based on a BO loss to JD, even though he beat hiya?
On October 15 2008 14:55 EvoChamber wrote: To be fair, this wasn't only a BO win. Jaedong read Flash's mind perfectly. Harmony is a large map, which favors early expansions over rush builds, and it's known to favor Terran in general. Flash thought that if he could get off a 14cc, he could win the game using the huge macro boost and the map to his advantage. Jaedong keyed in on this and did the only build that could counter 14cc on such a large map. So....it's not like there wasn't strategy, just that it was all done before the game and not in-game.
LOL, i'll be the odd one out Nah dude your wrong. this is just straight BO loss if you cant see that its kinda silly, if FS can call sea's loss to fantasy a BO loss then im calling this a BO loss, he beat hiya so im not dissapointed. BL my little monster, go smash fantasy in gom and some random MBC player
On October 15 2008 14:58 ArC_man wrote: Flash is trash now
Based on a BO loss to JD, even though he beat hiya?
Nah dude you're wrong. See dude the thing is, you don't know how to think about SC. You just know how to cheer on Flash, dude. You like Flash because he wins, and you don't understand how he wins and now you don't understand why he loses man. And, dude, you don't know how to read. I didn't say it wasn't a BO win. I said it wasn't only a BO win. So maybe you should wait a few years and learn how to reason before you make another ignorant-ass comment, kid.
On October 15 2008 14:55 EvoChamber wrote: To be fair, this wasn't only a BO win. Jaedong read Flash's mind perfectly. Harmony is a large map, which favors early expansions over rush builds, and it's known to favor Terran in general. Flash thought that if he could get off a 14cc, he could win the game using the huge macro boost and the map to his advantage. Jaedong keyed in on this and did the only build that could counter 14cc on such a large map. So....it's not like there wasn't strategy, just that it was all done before the game and not in-game.
LOL, i'll be the odd one out Nah dude your wrong. this is just straight BO loss if you cant see that its kinda silly, if FS can call sea's loss to fantasy a BO loss then im calling this a BO loss, he beat hiya so im not dissapointed. BL my little monster, go smash fantasy in gom and some random MBC player
On October 15 2008 14:58 ArC_man wrote: Flash is trash now
Based on a BO loss to JD, even though he beat hiya?
Nah dude you're wrong. See dude the thing is, you don't know how to think about SC. You just know how to cheer on Flash, dude. You like Flash because he wins, and you don't understand how he wins and now you don't understand why he loses man. And, dude, you don't know how to read. I didn't say it wasn't a BO win. I said it wasn't only a BO win. So maybe you should wait a few years and learn how to reason before you make another ignorant-ass comment, kid.
Flash rules GG!! GGGGGGG! I don't care if he does a 14CC into triple expand, he beats whatever logic is in your aurguement.... !!! Wooooooo
On October 15 2008 14:55 EvoChamber wrote: To be fair, this wasn't only a BO win. Jaedong read Flash's mind perfectly. Harmony is a large map, which favors early expansions over rush builds, and it's known to favor Terran in general. Flash thought that if he could get off a 14cc, he could win the game using the huge macro boost and the map to his advantage. Jaedong keyed in on this and did the only build that could counter 14cc on such a large map. So....it's not like there wasn't strategy, just that it was all done before the game and not in-game.
LOL, i'll be the odd one out Nah dude your wrong. this is just straight BO loss if you cant see that its kinda silly, if FS can call sea's loss to fantasy a BO loss then im calling this a BO loss, he beat hiya so im not dissapointed. BL my little monster, go smash fantasy in gom and some random MBC player
On October 15 2008 14:58 ArC_man wrote: Flash is trash now
Based on a BO loss to JD, even though he beat hiya?
Nah dude you're wrong. See dude the thing is, you don't know how to think about SC. You just know how to cheer on Flash, dude. You like Flash because he wins, and you don't understand how he wins and now you don't understand why he loses man. And, dude, you don't know how to read. I didn't say it wasn't a BO win. I said it wasn't only a BO win. So maybe you should wait a few years and learn how to reason before you make another ignorant-ass comment, kid.
So what your saying, is im stupid in thinking that this wasnt just a BO win? even if what your saying is true and jd had this maped out a 9pool thinking that flash was going to 14cc, thats not a BO win? thats the stupidest thing ive ever heard, FS says oh poor sea, lost due to BO and everyone sighs and agrees, i say it when it applies even more but i get laughed at by stupid arrogant lecaf fans Face the facts man, that wasnt some master plan by jd, it was straight BO win
On October 15 2008 14:55 EvoChamber wrote: To be fair, this wasn't only a BO win. Jaedong read Flash's mind perfectly. Harmony is a large map, which favors early expansions over rush builds, and it's known to favor Terran in general. Flash thought that if he could get off a 14cc, he could win the game using the huge macro boost and the map to his advantage. Jaedong keyed in on this and did the only build that could counter 14cc on such a large map. So....it's not like there wasn't strategy, just that it was all done before the game and not in-game.
LOL, i'll be the odd one out Nah dude your wrong. this is just straight BO loss if you cant see that its kinda silly, if FS can call sea's loss to fantasy a BO loss then im calling this a BO loss, he beat hiya so im not dissapointed. BL my little monster, go smash fantasy in gom and some random MBC player
On October 15 2008 14:58 ArC_man wrote: Flash is trash now
Based on a BO loss to JD, even though he beat hiya?
Nah dude you're wrong. See dude the thing is, you don't know how to think about SC. You just know how to cheer on Flash, dude. You like Flash because he wins, and you don't understand how he wins and now you don't understand why he loses man. And, dude, you don't know how to read. I didn't say it wasn't a BO win. I said it wasn't only a BO win. So maybe you should wait a few years and learn how to reason before you make another ignorant-ass comment, kid.
Oh, right look how smart JD have read Flash and out-BO-ed him. The true is JD took a high risk and got lucky. It's a 4 player map, there 33% probability to scout in the right direction.
Also, Flash knows that JD usually goes to macro game, he's not a July aggressive style. Considering this, a 14CC is kind a low risk build. And, no, I'm not Flash fan. Even more, I like when the zerg wins on such a imba terranish map.
I think we've been proven many times that JD is the most versitile Zerg aswell as the best Zerg on the planet. With that I mean he can adapt, and he will mix around his games, and be both aggressive and play it out into macro games.
Recently JD has been playing alot of Micro instense games because he knows he has the superior micro to other players, and it's been proven to be effective.
So, going 14CC vs a player that might opt for a aggressive opening, is a pretty damn stupid decision even if it is on a 4 player map, and I'm quite sure that Flash regrets his choice very much.
OMG I had such a good laugh while reading these LRs. Thanx!
Realpenguin: I THINK TONIGHT WILL BE FULL OF UPSETS (on second thought, this may be why my liquibet status is so horrible)
Sunyveil: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ On October 15 2008 13:43 xenero wrote: Can they do that? Super-Secret ace weapon, what if Khan suddenly brought out Luxury? O.o ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- then the team homosexuality rating would decrease by a good 50%
AttackZerg: Jaedong trains with backho and becomes the best zerg vs protoss in the history of the game.
Bring Bisu ....
And we get a new patch.
SingletonWilliam: I don't see a purpose of LRing a match between a no-name zerg and Jaedong. I might as well copy and paste rape 9000 times.
DownMaxX: If I was FireFist I would've just GG'd out during the countdown.
Deepgray: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On October 15 2008 14:02 traced wrote: jaedong gets like insulted that he has to play less than elite players or something --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, when his 8 lings can't take down your 2, you should be mad that you're wasting your time.
SimonB: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- after sayin` this for 3 times: On October 15 2008 14:20 CDRdude wrote: I predict fOrGG > Midas. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And I predict Tossgirl > Backho.
SilveR.sKy)ChoseN: and Flash using his insta-lose TVZ build.
DeepGray: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On October 15 2008 14:58 ArC_man wrote: Flash is trash now --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He ate Pooh @ GOM...that means something right? ;-; ... NEW STRAT: double CC wall :D
xenero: "Or he could be going for a FE, you never know."
OMFG I'm so fucking happy right now waking up to see Jaedong deliver both against an (easy?) Zerg and then taking down the Flash! Boy can't wait to see the VODs of my favourite player
This is the best battle thread in a while, boys! Some comments were really hilarious. I loved the "new Flash depot-cc-cc build" As an Oz fan, I am happy they won. As a Starcraft fan, all games were disappointing (Hiya, BackHo, Firefist, playing like trash and fast BO win for closer) except Lomo vs Tempest which was just insane. This is the craziest game I have seen in a while (even better than Tempest vs Ruby). Lomo has unbelievable micro and game sense. He is Boxer's heir to me, even though I guess he will never even be half as succesfull as Him.
On October 15 2008 14:40 Tyxiquale wrote: anyone else think lomo looks like a girl? Its his eyes.. if he had any makeup on, he'd fit right in as a fashion model on the catwalk.
Have you seen that OZ promo vid of their members dressing in drag? o_o;;
I just clicked the link and as I hit play coincidentally DotA by Basshunter came on and I could of SWORN it was in the video, then I checked my iTunes... T.T
On October 15 2008 14:55 EvoChamber wrote: To be fair, this wasn't only a BO win. Jaedong read Flash's mind perfectly. Harmony is a large map, which favors early expansions over rush builds, and it's known to favor Terran in general. Flash thought that if he could get off a 14cc, he could win the game using the huge macro boost and the map to his advantage. Jaedong keyed in on this and did the only build that could counter 14cc on such a large map. So....it's not like there wasn't strategy, just that it was all done before the game and not in-game.
LOL, i'll be the odd one out Nah dude your wrong. this is just straight BO loss if you cant see that its kinda silly, if FS can call sea's loss to fantasy a BO loss then im calling this a BO loss, he beat hiya so im not dissapointed. BL my little monster, go smash fantasy in gom and some random MBC player
On October 15 2008 14:58 ArC_man wrote: Flash is trash now
Based on a BO loss to JD, even though he beat hiya?
yes its "technically" a BO loss, but then so is 3 hatch before pool vs 9 pool in ZvZ
BO loss implies that luck was the major determining factor here, and i don't think thats the case. Flash lost because he played overly risky and Jaedong anticipated this. if you do something extremely risky and get punished for it, you can't chalk it up to "BO loss" because then 80% of progames are "BO losses"
14cc in this situation isn't "ballsy" or "brilliant" its just a giant gamble on your opponent scouting late or not doing an aggressive build
On October 15 2008 23:46 AnOth3rDAy wrote: stop complaining about flash's strat guys, if jaedong made 12hatch u'd all be like wow 14 cc nice wow bla bla..
Flash has shown a pattern of 14cc'ing often, and doing this sort of risky play in the Ace match is just bad decision making. It seems Flash is not confident in his TvZ especially against Jaedong, so he wants to push every advantage he can get.
If you 14cc and they don't 9 pool, you gain an advantage If you 14cc and they 9 pool, you basically auto-lose If you 1 rax expo and they 12 hatch, it's basically even
I don't think the risk is worth the reward, especially if you're someone that 14cc's often, and you have such a strong late game like Flash does, why risk it? Why not just 1 rax expand? It's not like it's that huge a difference that Flash was forced to 14cc.
I maintain this was a horrible decision and Flash shouldn't have done it.
On October 15 2008 14:55 EvoChamber wrote: To be fair, this wasn't only a BO win. Jaedong read Flash's mind perfectly. Harmony is a large map, which favors early expansions over rush builds, and it's known to favor Terran in general. Flash thought that if he could get off a 14cc, he could win the game using the huge macro boost and the map to his advantage. Jaedong keyed in on this and did the only build that could counter 14cc on such a large map. So....it's not like there wasn't strategy, just that it was all done before the game and not in-game.
I think you misunderstand the expression "build order win" then. Or, at least, the logic that I see in it, is that it's a win where the build order is the deciding matter, not how the players played or anything like that. So, given that, even if Jaedong did outthink Flash, it's still a build-order win. Just so people don't get confused.
And we can all boo at Flash, but lets just rejoyce at how well this demonstrates how people consistently having a "greedy" gameplay is starting to backfire. I mean, the zerg vs terran match-up can be really great if the terran tries to make something of it, but the pattern I see is that these game have deteriorated into the terran simply securing a few bases with defensive play, and with even economy the zerg has no chance to stop a terran who will slowly be able to push with his siege tanks. Hopefully, more terrans will start to do like Boxer, but, of course, he does it for the entertainment value, not to have a better chance of winning. It's just like how protosses seemed to have gotten into the groove of securing a macro advantage by fast-expanding every single game, knowing that they will very likely be able to fight the zerg if the economy is even, and have been punished for this greedy play a lot more recently. On a lower level, it was fun to see how Mondragon had incorporated this into his zerg vs protoss play when playing on the TSL ladder - just about every game he killed off 5-10 drones by pushing zerglings through the weak defence of the protoss, and kept his opponent occupied through the entire start of the game. Of course, a few players blocked well, but on some maps he was successful every single time.
Just so you don't get confused, I didn't say that it wasn't a BO win. I said that it wasn't only a BO win. Progamers don't just pick their builds out of a hat before the match starts. They choose a specific build based on the matchup at hand, the layout of the map, and their assumptions about what the other player's build will be. Flash read the map and the matchup and assumed Jaedong would 12hatch, in which case the build that would give him the most advantage would be 14cc. Jaedong made the correct assumption about Flash's assumptions and punished him by going overpool speed. You seem to think that build orders and how a progamer plays are separate. I think that choosing a build order is one of the most important, if not the most important, part of playing professional SC.
Let me rephrase: you seem to assume that someone saying it's a build-order win necessarily means that it doesn't come down to wise strategical choices. I'm simply saying that this is not what it means, the way I figure it
I don't really think we have a disagreement here, then. It's just that on TL, there's a tendency, when someone's favorite player loses, to blame it on "build order," with the implication that no skill was involved and that Flash or Sea or Jaedong is still the better player even though they lost and that the winner's victory somehow doesn't count, an attitude which is fundamentally dishonest about how the game is played. Hopefully soon we can refer to build-order wins without any of these connotations, but I'm not really holding my breath.
You know what I think the difference between Flash and Jaedong going into this ace match was?
Flash went in thinking "Oh great I can redeem myself, play with my rival, and have a good game we can laugh over. This should be fun"
Jaedong went in thinking "I'm going to snipe a terran"
One meant business and the other was just too carefree. That's why Flash got owned... you could see it on his face before the match that he was just excited to play, and Jaedong was just a stone cold killer.
Right now, JD untouchable. He has this aura of self confidence that I don't recall seeing in him even a few months back before he hit that little slump. It's not something I saw in the game vs Flash, it's the attitude and aggressiveness he has been showing lately. The way he manhandled Sense was awesome. No wonder he has that zvz record.
He feels untouchable, basically an autowin on PL. And it's not like he doesn't have anyone backing him up on his team. And I think Flash is starting to lose self confidence pretty quickly. He has gone from smirking after losing to covering his face with his hands in the verge of crying. I'm not saying Flash is gone, but I don't think he will ever bounce back to the monster terran he once was.
Watching Jaedong's celebration afterwards (for both matches) you can just see that he was happy, yes, but he knew all along that he was going to win.
Still, I can't believe Flash went for a 14CC after having done so so often, and having been 9pooled by Jaedong so many times in the past. I was hoping he had some special build prepared just in case he ever had to play Jaedong in ace..
On October 16 2008 09:01 3 Lions wrote: Jaedong will drop the first set of the MSL ro16 to free cuz I really doubt he's had enough time to practice, and Free is a top-class progamer.
On October 16 2008 09:01 3 Lions wrote: Jaedong will drop the first set of the MSL ro16 to free cuz I really doubt he's had enough time to practice, and Free is a top-class progamer.
Willing to put money on that?
uh...i'd be willing to put some pride on that
edit: here's why: ZvP on Byzantium...0-7 see? I recognize JD as a great player, but Free has been practicing for nothing else for a week. Jaedong has a day or 2 to get this ready. I think if he fails to win the first set, he will definitely win sets 2 and 3.
I'm not sure. If there's anyone to upset map stats right now, it's JD in ZvP. Although, he does have a habit of dropping game 1 of a series, so I'm not totally sure. But then again, that's in bo5 series, not bo3. Arg, I don't know!
On October 16 2008 07:36 Vasoline73 wrote: You know what I think the difference between Flash and Jaedong going into this ace match was?
Flash went in thinking "Oh great I can redeem myself, play with my rival, and have a good game we can laugh over. This should be fun"
Jaedong went in thinking "I'm going to snipe a terran"
One meant business and the other was just too carefree. That's why Flash got owned... you could see it on his face before the match that he was just excited to play, and Jaedong was just a stone cold killer.
You know what I think? You have no way of telling that and your subconscious influenced your conscious. I think the difference between Flash and Jaedong was confidence.
Honestly a progamer should never do the mistake Flash did... they should always be ready for a rush, on any map (except island), and therefore never 14cc. Damn right to feel embarassed afterwards. And yes, 14cc would even be a mistake if Flash had won (in that case he would just have been lucky for not being rushed). Is that really pro?
Why would he be lucky if he had won? Jaedong usually goes for an economic build, and flash was banking on that, it was a calculated risk and he was trying to put himself in a very advantageous situation to seal the deal. In this case jaedong gambled on flash doing this and won, had flash did 1 rax to expand the jd might have been behind if he didnt do damage. Obviously comparing the situation JDs approach had a greater reward and less risk, but oh well thats the nature of the game. Either way I dont think you are in any position to question flash not being a pro.
Again sometimes starcraft fans are overly critical, Savior was slumping Flash is just going through a rough patch and has lost to strong players, this does not qualify as a slump and hes still playing some damn good starcraft, hes just being punished for his overly greedy builds alot more, as seen in his msl set vs forgg. And the mine incident with forgg was pretty funny, whoda thunk that would happen lol.
I don't see how you can say that, of these two players, Jaedong is the one that goes for an economy based build rather than Flash. JD goes 9pool speedlings a lot of the time, and he is very effective at making it cost effective regardless of the situation. Flash 14ccs enough to make 9pool always worth it, even for players of a lower caliber than JD. Basically it comes down to this:
JD's build enabled him to survive anything a terran could throw out in the starting phase of the game, with only the added 'risk' of having to put on a lot of pressure to keep things even if the terran played more 'standard'. Flash's build left him open to a plethora of zerg build orders, including ones that aren't even close to all-in.
Hell, 14cc is even riskier than most all-in rushes, because at least when you rush, you're the one applying the pressure. I really don't think it's ever worth it.
On October 16 2008 07:24 EvoChamber wrote: I don't really think we have a disagreement here, then. It's just that on TL, there's a tendency, when someone's favorite player loses, to blame it on "build order," with the implication that no skill was involved and that Flash or Sea or Jaedong is still the better player even though they lost and that the winner's victory somehow doesn't count, an attitude which is fundamentally dishonest about how the game is played. Hopefully soon we can refer to build-order wins without any of these connotations, but I'm not really holding my breath.
True. I guess I'm just worried about the linguistics here. This was only a build-order win, but Jaedong secured it through smart strategical choices.
I can see that Scaramanga seems to exemplify what you're talking about pretty well.
On October 17 2008 08:11 uknable wrote: poor flash... whenever he loses it looks like hes about to cry
I take this as a sign that he'll be coming back sometime soon... he still has the hunger to win and you can tell that the losses hurt.
Jaedong is the same way except that instead of crying he looks really pissed when he loses. Same thing.
With some players, you just see resignation. These guys have high expectations of themselves and so they have a chance at achieving those expectations.
FLASH Hasnt gone anywhere, except back to the ktf house, he still plays great starcraft, and hell back for next proleague match. Again because he doesnt win everygame doesnt mean hes slumping hes not losing to a bunch of no names and failing to qualify for starleagues.
Slumping is relative of course. If someone performs below their potential then it's a slump, even if they're still playing at a high level. Maybe Flash is just in a "transition period"...
On October 17 2008 08:11 uknable wrote: poor flash... whenever he loses it looks like hes about to cry
I don't know - not always. This game seemed to hit him particularly hard. He's been badly raped by Jaedong recently and was probably looking to finally get a bit of payback this game - for his fans, to show that he could still take Jaedong, and probably for himself and his confidence. I think that this game was a nail in the coffin after his 0:3 against Jaedong in the GOM finals and I think that was why he took it so hard.
On October 17 2008 08:11 uknable wrote: poor flash... whenever he loses it looks like hes about to cry
I take this as a sign that he'll be coming back sometime soon... he still has the hunger to win and you can tell that the losses hurt.
Jaedong is the same way except that instead of crying he looks really pissed when he loses. Same thing.
With some players, you just see resignation. These guys have high expectations of themselves and so they have a chance at achieving those expectations.
YEAH LIKE HOW SAVIOR TURNED IT AROUND AFTER PUNCHING THE WALL.
On October 17 2008 08:11 uknable wrote: poor flash... whenever he loses it looks like hes about to cry
I take this as a sign that he'll be coming back sometime soon... he still has the hunger to win and you can tell that the losses hurt.
Jaedong is the same way except that instead of crying he looks really pissed when he loses. Same thing.
With some players, you just see resignation. These guys have high expectations of themselves and so they have a chance at achieving those expectations.
YEAH LIKE HOW SAVIOR TURNED IT AROUND AFTER PUNCHING THE WALL.
On October 17 2008 08:11 uknable wrote: poor flash... whenever he loses it looks like hes about to cry
I take this as a sign that he'll be coming back sometime soon... he still has the hunger to win and you can tell that the losses hurt.
Jaedong is the same way except that instead of crying he looks really pissed when he loses. Same thing.
With some players, you just see resignation. These guys have high expectations of themselves and so they have a chance at achieving those expectations.
YEAH LIKE HOW SAVIOR TURNED IT AROUND AFTER PUNCHING THE WALL.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/pachi/banner/SPL_080930.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/teams/2.jpg)
______![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/teams/11.jpg)
Flash < Chupung-Ryeong > 
Luxury < Andromeda > 
BackHo
. lol. 
![[image loading]](http://i37.tinypic.com/21oy1hk.png)
Boy can't wait to see the VODs of my favourite player 
