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On September 17 2026 12:23 Smorrie wrote:
The actual motivation of my earlier post is that Protoss tears come out like clockwork every ASL, especially when Snow exits. I think most if not everyone would prefer to have an equal race distribution, but every single thread just devolves into the same 10+ pages of balance whining. State of the game is terrible, we know... Also, it hasn't changed for 25 years. Regardless of what race you play or which players you are rooting for, it's tiresome AF.
@TMNT, that's moving the goalposts too far from your previous posts for me. I'm wasn't disputing balance, but I'm too tired to engage into this, especially knowing how combative you like to be. Enjoy~
@goody, sure, the tournament has a lot more issues before each season even stats (i.e. map selection, qualifiers). Relax, enjoy there are still people out there making this happen. Also, would it be a fair assessment to say you are a confused Protoss player identifying as Terran? Checks out you're a professional grade Zerg hater!
At least there's some silver lining for all the haters out there.. more ZvZ means the tournament wraps up faster so your agony will be over soon. Cheers!
I d like some new stuff for sure, but bonyth and eon are both right we don't know enough of that very top level to judge and blizzard would 100% fuck it up so we re kinda stuck
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I decide to do a check in to how things turned out and wow, no protoss makes it through. I'm just done watching Brood War until they fix this matchup. Somehow the zerg cabal is defending the state of the game, enjoy your dead game.
Who wants to keep watching this nonsense? I keep watching season after season of protoss losing to zerg in the most uninteresting ways imaginable.
You can argue about the minutua of balance all you like, but the only thing that matters is having entertaining games and an ecosystem which reliably produces interesting and fun games. Take a step back and recognize that unlimited zerg wins just aren't that interesting to many people and it makes them lose interest and stop watching.
I don't care about some theoretical abstract game balance, I care about there being interesting games and the current map pool and game balance is failing to deliver on this front. You need to balance around the players that you have, not some theoretical roster of pros that doesn't exist.
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snow messed up his wall; failed to block shines 2nd hatch with probe; put 1st cannon too far back; made gas on 26 even after scouting hydra den; blocked his mining with pylon/cannons
he got gifted a free game but messed it up badly i dunno why this game of all games is one people choose to whine about
if protoss gas order spend +1 attack > stargate > citadel > corsair > +2 gates > legs before 2nd gas / defend the forge properly with a better simcity and the game is very hard for zerg to play from
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On September 17 2026 23:34 Scarlett` wrote:
he got gifted a free game but messed it up badly i dunno why this game of all games is one people choose to whine about
Because it's an "all-inish" build that ends many games on the spot when not scouted, it got scouted, defended, and toss played a macro game BEHIND, he had constant vision the entire game between the probe and corsair, even scouting the 4th hatch timing before checking drone and gas count with corsair constantly
With the nexus first losses that Mini and SnOw had, you can say "well, he got greedy, and got punished", but it does create the question of why do they feel the need to play greedy, when pool firsts are very common, not all-in? It sort of indicates they don't feel confident to play a standard game without any edge.
What surprised me is that even after scouting it, SnOw can't punish it, that means at the very least it's DIFFICULT to punish that build. If there was a clear counter in some kind of speedlot/goon range gateway push before zerg can eco up I'm sure he would know about it.
I do question if going stargate first into corsair is the correct choice vs scouted 973, I know it's standard but when the zerg is 100% never getting fast mutas is the scouting and overlord pressure worth it?
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On September 17 2026 23:30 TheAceOfHearts wrote:
Who wants to keep watching this nonsense? I keep watching season after season of protoss losing to zerg in the most uninteresting ways imaginable.
You can argue about the minutua of balance all you like, but the only thing that matters is having entertaining games and an ecosystem which reliably produces interesting and fun games. Take a step back and recognize that unlimited zerg wins just aren't that interesting to many people and it makes them lose interest and stop watching.
Pretty much my feelings. I don't trust Blizzard to competently patch the game, but it's either that or a wildly different map pool, or maybe different map pools for different matchups (which is inelegant but still better than every tournament being a ZvZ fest).
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I'm a zerg player but would love to see a healthy race balance, PvZ is a joy to watch when it's not just hydra busts, muta busts or ling all-ins
I don't think it's fair to expect all ZvZs, Terrans are very competitive vs Z, I do feel that player-base is under-rated; if Flash was around we could easily have a few more dead zergs and an extra terran.
There are 4 zergs I feel are really top class (Soma, Soulkey, JD, Effort) while for Terran I just think it's Light and Rush in this lineup.
Protoss have Bisu, Best, Snow, and Mini but they are either knocking themselves out in PvP or getting hydra busted in ZvP.
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On September 16 2026 14:54 Rainalcar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2026 07:34 Maks wrote:On September 16 2026 06:56 Rainalcar wrote:
Don't forget KCM wins.
15 terran
13 Zerg
4 protoss
That is 12,5% for protoss wins. Over so many seasons and different maps. How is that not a disgrace for all of us?
Actually, that Liquipedia page hasn't been updated in over a year and a half (missing 6 tournaments). Protoss's win rate is a bit higher now: 17 Zerg wins 15 Terran wins 6 Protoss wins That’s 6/38, or 15.8%. Either way, it's pretty terrible. Protoss performs noticeably better in the Escore Tournament, though obviously its prestige is lower than most other events. Oh, apologies
Edit, it is now
18 Zerg wins
15 Terran wins
6 Protoss wins
15,38% Protoss wins
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On September 17 2026 22:22 Bonyth wrote:
What I see is wrong decision making from Snow in the beginning of the game. He played the early game, as if he was facing the classic 973 build, but it was probably a little bit delayed, maybe with some extra drones and with an extra hatch. We, foreigners, know so little about StarCraft that we don't truly know the proper answers (who knows, maybe even the koreans don't). But anyway, I imagine, what protoss needed, was more gateways/zealots and less cannons to have a way of threatening the eco phase from zerg after the initial push (because the timing wasn't as fast as usual 973). Another approach could be getting templar archives with dt out faster, because the overlord was killed? I'd have to rewatch the match to be sure here (and it's a harder choice to make, because u don't know ahead of time if u are going to kill the overlord, or if there is just the one).
I could also mention the not perfect cannon placement, where Snow could have covered the forge better by positioning 2 cannons at the right time (1 was sniped as it was finishing if i remember correctly?) and another one was 1 hex too far (didnt cover the destroyed cannon well enough).
Yes, we can all agree and it's quite obvious the reason Snow got behind is overbuilding cannons (and blocking his own mining is a consequence of this).
But the timing of hydra is not that different. For reference, Effort kills Mini with the hydra bust at 05:55 in the group stage. Shine's hydras are only a few seconds later.
Shine's build is 3H Hydra, then 4th Hatch but no droning, then constant pumping of hydras. Snow's probe sees the 4th Hatch morphing, but never sees if it finishes, and he sees hydras coming out. There are two overlords at the nat (corsair doesn't kill any). Those information, plus the fact that the Zerg here is Shine, telegraphs a possibility that he's posturing for a macro build only to go super hard on all in, which prompts Snow to go 4+1 cannons in the first round of defence. Then when 2 corsairs arrive at Zerg's base, Shine is still pumping out hydras, which prompts Snow to go 7+1 cannons, which is quite justifiable given in the end Zerg builds a total of 20 hydras + 6 lings. And you never know if Snow builds less cannons then Shine would pump more hydras and actually go for the kill or not. This belongs to the territory of "maybe Koreans don't even know" like you said.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think for 3H Hydra into macro, Zerg ever builds up to 20 hydras? Typically it's one group at best, snipe the Forge then back off.
My point is Protoss should never be put in such situation in the first place. There's not a real methodology to make the correct decision let alone thinking about optimisation in that spot. The "perfect response" from Protoss can only be born out of guesswork.
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This is a breeding ground to invent personal narratives lol.
Despire Snow having a full read of the early game, he failed to block the exp, tunneled his corsairs on the unkillable lords outside of his base, then ends up trading a corsair for an overlord at Shine's exp. He appears to plan for a 3 gate timing attack but changes his course of action. His overall optimization at this point is very poor for pro standards, and Shine capitalized on this to get ahead. Snow had excellent engagements mid & late game, I don't think he missed a single storm... but Shine wouldn't let him recover.
Meanwhile Shine profited from Snow's poor optimizations and cannon placement. He did execute a straight forward 973 otherwise.. He only lost 3 of his hydras in the early engagements which allowed him to power up more. Shine wasting all his muta seems to be part of the sentiment, but he lost 6 muta vs a goon & 2 temps (and maybe 1-2 probes?). Not the greatest but an okay trade, since it bought him more time AND the remaining mutas were put to good use. Ya'll just want to paint a disingenuous picture to push your narratives.
Same goes for the ZvZ sentiment. In the last 6 ASL's that were dominated by SK & soma, the Ro8 bracket featured 3 ZvZ's, 2 PvP's and 1 TvT. The remaining games (>85%) had a balanced distribution between ZvT/TvP/PvZ. Sorry to hear ya'll are done supporting the game/scene after 25 years, you will be missed.
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I agree that SK and Soma are excellent players and we shouldn't write it off to Z being OP same as Flash making Terran seem OP.
I also agree that snow probably had poor optimization in the early game against the 9-7-3 build, based on pro commentary on his play before that jinjin translated.
However, you can't say the Snow is bad because he lost a corsair or trades it for an overlord, but Shine running in with 11 mutas, killing 3 units and losing 6 mutas, with 5 mutas all 1 hp, is a good trade, if he did that and lost everyone would point to him throwing away his units
Or why is Snow failing to snipe the 4th base a mistake, when he sent a bunch of zealots there but it got blocked, is supposed to send his whole army cross spawn to kill a hatchery and let zerg counter?
Or do you mean he failed to block the literal natural expansion hatchery.. because it's overpool, the lings are hatching anyway, and probe vs drone micro is such that if the probe takes a hit first, the drone can moving shot, but he can also quickly turn around to make the hatchery, that is a 50:50 micro battle and the stakes are low.. delaying the hatchery 5-10 seconds while the lings hatch is nice but its just a fraction of a larva, its unfair to call that a mistake.
Like I just watched 7 lings and 17 hydras run into 7 cannons (8th warping), 4 zealots and probes blocking, and take a kind of equalish trade (1 cannon killed, 4 zealots, lost lings and 6 hydra) .. that's just absurd to me
I feel that running into 7 cannons, 4 zealots and probe blocking looks like an actual noob play, the fact that it can trade seems unreal
What amount of protoss units could walk into 6 sunkens and 12 lings and trade with it at 7 minutes? Just for a perspective (I guess cannons shoot ground and air so that's why they're weaker)
6 sunkens is like an effective mid-lategame defensive wall that toss avoids lol
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Failing to block the natural hatch is a bonus point. Like, you get a marginal advantage if you can, otherwise the game goes on normally and no one is ahead. Since when are we counting it as a mistake from Protoss? I guess if you don't scout first then that's on you too?
Other than that his only issue in the early game is like Bonyth said, not perfect cannon placement. But that shouldn't set Protoss that far back. I mean, fair if his sim city is so bad that he can't put enough cannons to defend a bust. But it's not the case here.
Another sentiment is that Snow should have executed the perfect counter build (i.e. more zealots, faster legs...) but there's no guarantee it would work (and no, he didn't get gifted a free game, otherwise you're effectively saying probe spotting a hydra den = free win for Protoss). I'm not asserting it wouldn't either, but can he not just solidly defend the potential bust, expand and win a straight up macro game? Are you saying it's not even an option for Protoss AFTER Zerg has a chance to kill already?
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the play by the protoss players this season was overall pretty abysmal, but noticably it was worse against zerg.
seems like the protoss' spirit is broken; they also have noone like soma, calm, flash and other innovatrs of zerg and terran. they seem truly stuck at the moment.
anyway, JD dodging Light only to face soma is truly some diabolical irony.
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Think JD will take Soma over light any day
JD is confident in his ZvZ while he struggles with Light in ZvT
I don't think JD's chances in ZvZ are worse than 50:50 against soma?
I'm not clued up on everyone's form in Zvz.. but they couldn't possibly be worse than 40:60 even if you say Soma is better?
I'm curious to see any innovations in ZvZ build meta as well, will we see more 9 pool into 10/9 extractor trick expansion or overgas builds instead of the usual 9 pool/12 pool expand/11 hatch builds?
I've seen 9 pool expansion used in Aiolos to punish 11 hatch while not being stuck on 1 hatch, and not autolosing to 9 pool builds still (effort lost doing this to 9 pool gas but he pulled out a drone early and his sunk/wall was late)
On September 18 2026 04:46 Tanzklaue wrote:
the play by the protoss players this season was overall pretty abysmal, but noticably it was worse against zerg.
Whatever about balance concerns, we have to lay blame shuttle for knocking out bisu and then being a target dummy later in ASL lmao
Didn't he also put Mini to losers bracket to get sniped by a zerg as well? Can't remember exactly
That's like the two best PvZ protoss clapped by shuttle??
Poor shuttle and then tulbo even more so are the most clowned upon by the other pro players, the jinjin videos are hilarious.
I hope shuttle is bringing in the big $$ due to his entertainment value
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On September 15 2026 23:07 prosatan wrote:SK is the happiest BW player right now hahaha 
Not for long, the Wraiths will come to take him too.
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On September 18 2026 04:49 Slayer91 wrote:Think JD will take Soma over light any day JD is confident in his ZvZ while he struggles with Light in ZvT I don't think JD's chances in ZvZ are worse than 50:50 against soma? I'm not clued up on everyone's form in Zvz.. but they couldn't possibly be worse than 40:60 even if you say Soma is better? I'm curious to see any innovations in ZvZ build meta as well, will we see more 9 pool into 10/9 extractor trick expansion or overgas builds instead of the usual 9 pool/12 pool expand/11 hatch builds? I've seen 9 pool expansion used in Aiolos to punish 11 hatch while not being stuck on 1 hatch, and not autolosing to 9 pool builds still (effort lost doing this to 9 pool gas but he pulled out a drone early and his sunk/wall was late) Show nested quote +On September 18 2026 04:46 Tanzklaue wrote:
the play by the protoss players this season was overall pretty abysmal, but noticably it was worse against zerg.
Whatever about balance concerns, we have to lay blame shuttle for knocking out bisu and then being a target dummy later in ASL lmao Didn't he also put Mini to losers bracket to get sniped by a zerg as well? Can't remember exactly That's like the two best PvZ protoss clapped by shuttle?? Poor shuttle and then tulbo even more so are the most clowned upon by the other pro players, the jinjin videos are hilarious. I hope shuttle is bringing in the big $$ due to his entertainment value
I just think gettingsoma in the round of 8 is something nobody wants for themselves; though i agree that JD probably prefers this over Light (who funnily enough is the only terran JD can't seem to beat).
And i truly believe that this season, Protoss struggled due to lack of mentals. They all seem to truly believe that hey can't beat top zergs in a boX match. And not having someone who can figure out how to creatively abuse maps with weird features hurts the race too, as ASL insists on havin 1-3 wacky maps per season.
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On September 17 2026 12:17 Crimson)S(hadow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2026 12:03 Maks wrote:On September 17 2026 10:39 Highways wrote:
PvZ is a joke
It's why protoss never wins major tournaments Same goes for TvZ, yet somehow Zergs at the top ASL level still manage to pull it off and overcome the odds. Honestly, it really needs an explanation, because I have none. statistically ZvT is worse than PvZ according to the 70 million replay analysis, of players >2400 MMR PvT 46.25% PVZ 47.46% TvZ 55.73%
ZvP Finals of Major Starleagues (OSL, MSL, ASL):
* By tournament wins: 12–1 (92.3% vs 7.7%)
* By maps: 40–19 (67.8% vs 32.2%)
The only Protoss victory was Bisu's win over SAviOr.
Finals of ALL offline tournaments I was able to find:
* By tournament wins: 21–4 (84% vs 16%)
* By maps: 63–31 (67% vs 33%)
Of those four Protoss victories, three were by Bisu, including two wins over SAviOr, in the MSL and IEF, as well as his win over ZvP specialist herO in the SSL. The only non-Bisu victory in a final was Stork beating b-teamer Terror in the Chinese IEF.
It's clear that while the overall ZvP win rate hovers around 52–54%, that is not at all representative of finals. In finals, Zerg won more than two-thirds of their games against Protoss (67–68%), and consequently, almost all the titles went to Zerg.
Let's compare this with KCM Race Survival for context. Here I've grouped the semifinals and finals together since the difference is small:
* By series: 21–5 (80.8% vs 19.2%)
* By maps: 111–66 (62.7% vs 37.3%)
Here we see a similar picture, although slightly more favorable for Protoss. When top-tier Zergs prepare specifically to face top-tier Protoss players, that 52–54% win rate is nowhere close to what we see. The Zerg win rate becomes simply staggering and frankly ridiculous.
P.S. I may have made some mistakes in the counting, so if you spot any errors, please correct me.
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I believe, and I didn't look at the data, so it's not well supported, it comes from two factors
-A small win rate advantage becomes much more significant in a BoX where the odds of taking a BoX with, let's say 40% win rate is much smaller than Bo1
-Zerg has many all-in or all-inish builds they can prepare to take free wins, fast muta, fast lurker, ling all ins and hydra busts, it seems to me they get many "free wins" and no "free losses" as the occasional 2-gate build or whatever protoss prepares is rarely an instant win.
Zerg players typically play from behind when their aggressive play is defended well but they still have a chance to come back, as it's usually expensive to defend it
So in these tournament setting it's like protoss players are trying to guess if they can play for a greedy macro game or have to defend an all-in, while zerg can basically decide between pure greed or their prepared build more easily
That might be one reason I feel like protoss "wins a lot of the macro games" in tournaments, because the games that actually get to macro, some of them are failed aggressive builds where the zerg gets to play on, in actual 50:50 macro games zerg may still be favoured in ZvP at the top level
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Make Hallucination researched from the beginning so Protoss has another means to scout. That's my suggestion.
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Idk why Artosis thinks Light vs Effort is heavily Light favoured
Their H2H series count is 9W 4L for Effort, a 69.23% win rate
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EPT
