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[ASL22] Ro16 Group D
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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seRapH
United States9819 Posts
Coming soon | ||
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Dependent-Engine5251
4 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13496 Posts
Snow > Shinee Effort > Shine Effort > Snow Shine > Shinee Snow > Shine | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey835 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
On September 15 2026 12:52 RowdierBob wrote: Snow and Effort should get through with the bo3 format. But Shinee and Shine are tricky and the maps really suck for Protoss so who knows? If I were a betting man: Snow > Shinee Effort > Shine Effort > Snow Shine > Shinee Snow > Shine I said in my preview I need Snow to beat effort in that winner's match more than I need him to survive the group. He's gotta stand up to these zergs. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States8089 Posts
I also think he could beat Effort. For the sake of the protoss race, I hope he makes it through. | ||
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Kyle8
40 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46419 Posts
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winson
China145 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22575 Posts
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Mrs Crabbleman
36 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
On September 15 2026 18:25 winson wrote: cant remember when was the last time that there is no Protoss in Ro8 I think we never had only 2 races in ro8 in all ASL seasons. Mini was the sole Protoss in his miraculous title run. I don't remember before. | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
anyway , snow has this ! he must win !!! | ||
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
 as always! this game is almost over | ||
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Naib
Hungary4952 Posts
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gravity
Australia2330 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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InkieB2B
16 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
GG. Bisu said SHINee missed a turret placement | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46419 Posts
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
now a coinflip between effort and shine ! | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey835 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13496 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium5216 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium5216 Posts
On September 15 2026 19:35 prosatan wrote: why don't terrans go automatically for something vs reavers , when they are playing vs Snow ? now a coinflip between effort and shine ! Effort has amazing ZvZ, I'd say it's 90:10 in favor of Effort. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
On September 15 2026 19:39 Uldridge wrote: Effort has amazing ZvZ, I'd say it's 90:10 in favor of Effort. Bagzerg sends his regards | ||
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gravity
Australia2330 Posts
On September 15 2026 19:39 Uldridge wrote: Effort has amazing ZvZ, I'd say it's 90:10 in favor of Effort. Looks like we hit the 1 in 10 chance | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium5216 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46419 Posts
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nikolaus8844
126 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
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Malongo
Chile3478 Posts
On September 15 2026 19:39 Uldridge wrote: Effort has amazing ZvZ, I'd say it's 90:10 in favor of Effort. jinxed to death | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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InkieB2B
16 Posts
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Malongo
Chile3478 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:00 c3rberUs wrote: Snow didn't veto Colorless Fate? Interesting its bad for in pvz but he's the one putting up numbers for protoss on it | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:01 BLinD-RawR wrote: its bad for in pvz but he's the one putting up numbers for protoss on it Almost every PvZ I saw in it was Z winning lol that edit | ||
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Naib
Hungary4952 Posts
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Malongo
Chile3478 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46419 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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Naib
Hungary4952 Posts
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gravity
Australia2330 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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TMNT
3328 Posts
Like what the fuck is that? You get a chance to kill opposition outright, but if not you still have a 50/50 game to play, or even 60/40 in your favor. Matchup so broken. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46419 Posts
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Naib
Hungary4952 Posts
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Naib
Hungary4952 Posts
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Naib
Hungary4952 Posts
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TMNT
3328 Posts
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gravity
Australia2330 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22575 Posts
Defend the Hydra bust but that just meant Zerg gets the entire map and can macro up so hard. | ||
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xccam
Great Britain1154 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:20 TMNT wrote: What a fucked up matchup. Held hydra bust, anticipated Muta switch, but Zerg is still ahead in supply and now on 7 bases with Hive tech. Like seriously what did Snow do wrong? What critical mistake that led the game to this state? He picked protoss years ago sadly | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
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Naib
Hungary4952 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
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TMNT
3328 Posts
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InkieB2B
16 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4176 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:13 TMNT wrote: This is what I'm always talking about PvZ: hydra bust but they don't bust and continue to macro. If the hydra-drone balance is hit well, after a while Zerg even gets ahead in supply. Like what the fuck is that? You get a chance to kill opposition outright, but if not you still have a 50/50 game to play, or even 60/40 in your favor. Matchup so broken. I dont think its the whole matchup, its just this dynamic which never got fixed though | ||
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Naib
Hungary4952 Posts
But it seems I am wrong because Shine keeps to try to force Hydra / Lurk / ling / defiler instead of mixing in ultras and play more of attrition with Plague so slowly supply difference is dwindling, which means Snow is climbing ahead | ||
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gravity
Australia2330 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46419 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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Naib
Hungary4952 Posts
 too bad, for a minute there it looked like Snow might come back | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46419 Posts
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TMNT
3328 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:25 Naib wrote: Imo Snow keeps picking big engagements just a bit too early before 1 or 2 macro rounds would allow him to trade much more efficiently, he should be focusing on getting another mining base in that secured bottom right spot now. But it seems I am wrong because Shine keeps to try to force Hydra / Lurk / ling / defiler instead of mixing in ultras and play more of attrition with Plague so slowly supply difference is dwindling, which means Snow is climbing ahead Protoss can't defend both sides of the map in this game state. Like if Snow is ahead it's already a difficult task, but no way it's viable with supply constantly far behind Zerg. If Shine plays a little better, like on Effort level, Snow would die already. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22575 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:25 TMNT wrote: He doesnt need to fight well when he has 3/4th of the mapShine doesn't even take his fight well lol. He's literally just throwing units out there to die. How many lurkers dying for free by now? Yet he's still ahead. | ||
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gravity
Australia2330 Posts
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RHoudini
Belgium3628 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium5216 Posts
They need some inspiration for sure. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:13 TMNT wrote: This is what I'm always talking about PvZ: hydra bust but they don't bust and continue to macro. If the hydra-drone balance is hit well, after a while Zerg even gets ahead in supply. Like what the fuck is that? You get a chance to kill opposition outright, but if not you still have a 50/50 game to play, or even 60/40 in your favor. Matchup so broken. Perhaps if Shine lost 100 instead of 40 supply in that choke!  Yes, utterly broken matchup. 2 race ro8 so close! Good times for BW! | ||
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TMNT
3328 Posts
What an absolute farce of a matchup. | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines677 Posts
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Malongo
Chile3478 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:13 TMNT wrote: This is what I'm always talking about PvZ: hydra bust but they don't bust and continue to macro. If the hydra-drone balance is hit well, after a while Zerg even gets ahead in supply. Like what the fuck is that? You get a chance to kill opposition outright, but if not you still have a 50/50 game to play, or even 60/40 in your favor. Matchup so broken. Yeah that's basically the problem. The hydra bust is basically a free all in because it is just too expensive to counter. And it is not even the only all in anyways. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:29 Uldridge wrote: P is a real existential crisis... They need some inspiration for sure. they need better maps | ||
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nikolaus8844
126 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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TMNT
3328 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:31 Malongo wrote: Yeah that's basically the problem. The hydra bust is basically a free all in because it is just too expensive to counter. And it is not even the only all in anyways. I've seen so many games where Protoss did the best they could after such opening from Zerg, only to fall behind in the macro game later. This one takes the cake though, because normally the game would be 50:50 (which is already unfair to Protoss, because Zerg has a chance to kill before), but this one after the hydra opening it was already 80:20 to Shine. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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xccam
Great Britain1154 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines677 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22575 Posts
Dont build a dozen cannons, die PvZ in a nutshell | ||
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Naib
Hungary4952 Posts
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Simplistik
2173 Posts
Take care folks! | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
No, we need a patch! This unscoutable bullshit is killing the game | ||
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thezanursic
5504 Posts
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nikolaus8844
126 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:36 Rainalcar wrote: No, we need a patch! This unscoutable bullshit is killing the game a patch is never coming stop asking for it. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
wait he can still advance and pull a Reach | ||
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:35 c3rberUs wrote: RIP everyone's LB agree... i really wonder if someone picked shine... | ||
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Naib
Hungary4952 Posts
Might not be enough but it would've bought more time compared to what he did | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:37 c3rberUs wrote: Shine used to snipe Bisu from tournaments. Now it's Snow's turn wtf wait he can still advance and pull a Reach he'd have to face effort, because I doubt shinee is beating effort | ||
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gravity
Australia2330 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:36 BLinD-RawR wrote: a patch is never coming stop asking for it. You are likely right but I will never stop asking. Not because I want to ruin the game but because it's needed to save it. | ||
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hasuprotoss
United States4676 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:38 Rainalcar wrote: You are likely right but I will never stop asking. Not because I want to ruin the game because it's needed to save it. looool | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium5216 Posts
They need to stop going with a forge expand every single game when the Zerg gets a free contain out of it, or change the way where they just have to get to storm asap and pray they get it soon enough. I do not believe every option has been exhausted. No way. | ||
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TMNT
3328 Posts
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Malongo
Chile3478 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:38 Rainalcar wrote: You are likely right but I will never stop asking. Not because I want to ruin the game because it's needed to save it. it was never needed. This can be figured out with protoss players, better mapmaking and map selection. | ||
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TMNT
3328 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:37 Naib wrote: Also I don't like the reaction to the bust by Snow, my first instinct is to throw a gateway down into the choke as soon as the lurkers unburrow. Might not be enough but it would've bought more time compared to what he did Not buildable? Only enough space for a Pylon which he did. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22575 Posts
Wonder what it will take for Protoss to just abandon the race because of how dumb PvZ is. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:39 Malongo wrote: kek Saiyan my man Shine is not dangerous, there are no more protosses to abuse lmao. he can still skim off ZvZ | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:38 BLinD-RawR wrote: he'd have to face effort, because I doubt shinee is beating effort I mean yes it is a tall order | ||
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thezanursic
5504 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13496 Posts
Prob over made cannons in game 1 but reinforces how hard the matchup can be. Make 2 cannons too many and you sacrifice too much time. Make a cannon or 2 too little and your get hydra busted. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
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InkieB2B
16 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:39 Malongo wrote: kek Saiyan my man Shine is not dangerous, there are no more protosses to abuse lmao. i mean he can hit a lot of zvz | ||
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Malongo
Chile3478 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:39 TMNT wrote: Second game was just unlucky though. Snow scouted everything. The lings just slipped by the probe block. Matter of pixel. Without that he'd probably hold. Nah he had to build cannons at the main because Shine can also try the all in drop in the main. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4176 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: it was never needed. This can be figured out with protoss players, better mapmaking and map selection. Aren't the only maps where P is doing better than both T an Z, the island maps? But for some I don't know what reason they dont do any of them anymore | ||
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TMNT
3328 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: it was never needed. This can be figured out with protoss players, better mapmaking and map selection. Games like Octagon can happen on any map though. Even Octagon isn't too bad for PvZ. Close to 50% for Protoss. They have to basically make every map like Revolver. Basically eliminate the hydra bust option for Zerg. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1301 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:40 thezanursic wrote: I've always been a balance through maps type guy... but idk man. Maybe it is time to admit that after almost 30 years, the game has been optimized enough for us to say that Protoss is just weak compared to the other two races (At the highest levels of play, I'm well aware it has big advantages for beginners). Nah these maps are most zerg favored ever. its the maps. last few years the map pool has seen terrrrrrrrrible pvz winrates. We had a few seasons with maps that had almost 50% winrate for each MU. bring those maps back and suddenly it looks balanced again. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland613 Posts
Snow in both games put cannons in the wrong place or in wrong order And that choke between 2 pylons in game 2 was indeed unbuildable for some reason xD | ||
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thezanursic
5504 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:44 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Nah these maps are most zerg favored ever. its the maps. last few years the map pool has seen terrrrrrrrrible pvz winrates. We had a few seasons with maps that had almost 50% winrate for each MU. bring those maps back and suddenly it looks balanced again. I don't know what is balanced. ASL isn't balanced. KCM isn't balanced. We're talking of 15% titles going to Protoss on a long timeframe. How is that balanced? Or most importantly, fun for viewers and good for the game? | ||
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TMNT
3328 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4176 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:44 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Nah these maps are most zerg favored ever. its the maps. last few years the map pool has seen terrrrrrrrrible pvz winrates. We had a few seasons with maps that had almost 50% winrate for each MU. bring those maps back and suddenly it looks balanced again. I think both are true. P needs some help, but the last seasons were crazy Zerg maps. Soulkey won two titles with a 100% win rate ZvP maps in the pool. Not 90%, not even 99% - 100% like wtf, meanwhile island maps are too P favored to be added to the pool. No island map was ever 100% win rate for P | ||
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gravity
Australia2330 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:44 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Nah these maps are most zerg favored ever. its the maps. last few years the map pool has seen terrrrrrrrrible pvz winrates. We had a few seasons with maps that had almost 50% winrate for each MU. bring those maps back and suddenly it looks balanced again. The problem is they want variety and innovation in the maps, but it's hard to have that and balance at the same time. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:46 TMNT wrote: Back to game 1 on Octagon, I missed the early part guys. Did Snow lose some probes or throw away some zealots in the very early phase? Can somebody explain to me how the supply right after the attempted hydra bust was already in favor of Shine? I just can't understand. A cannon too much I guess? I don't even think it was two cannons too much, there were so many hydras. Best someone might calculate better, it's all math really with hydra busts. | ||
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InkieB2B
16 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:47 M2 wrote: I think both are true. P needs some help, but the last seasons were crazy Zerg maps. Soulkey won two titles with a 100% win rate ZvP maps in the pool. Not 90%, not even 99% - 100% like wtf, meanwhile island maps are too P favored to be added to the pool. No island map was ever 100% win rate for P This is not true. Sparkle for instance was Zerg favoured. There are so many unexplored avenues with island maps. | ||
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thezanursic
5504 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:49 InkieB2B wrote: Inbefore Snow wins this season and map balance discussion turns super non straightforward :D Would be funny if Effort loses to Shinee and then he faces exclusively Terran up to the finals without facing a single Zerg | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13496 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:46 TMNT wrote: Back to game 1 on Octagon, I missed the early part guys. Did Snow lose some probes or throw away some zealots in the very early phase? Can somebody explain to me how the supply right after the attempted hydra bust was already in favor of Shine? I just can't understand. He prob made too many cannons. I think he prob expected Shine to keep pressing but Shine macroed after the first poke. Shine sniped enough temps to ensure Snow’s mid game wasn’t strong enough to bust him. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4176 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:49 Rainalcar wrote: This is not true. Sparkle for instance was Zerg favoured. There are so many unexplored avenues with island maps. Yeah sure, perhaps even the island maps are not so P favored, but this is the only maps we know where P did well vs both races in the past | ||
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hasuprotoss
United States4676 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:51 M2 wrote: Yeah sure, perhaps even the island maps are not so P favored, but this is the only maps we know where P did well vs both races in the past Part of this becomes an ASL organizational thing, then. Because adding an island map causes it to either be banned and not played until Ro4. I guess they could force the first set to be on it like with Aiolos this Ro16 but yeah. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:51 M2 wrote: Yeah sure, perhaps even the island maps are not so P favored, but this is the only maps we know where P did well vs both races in the past Predominantly so,yes | ||
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kaos00
United States137 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13496 Posts
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:55 RowdierBob wrote: Sparkle was not Zerg favoured in ZvP -_- Do I have wrong numbers? Wasn't it, in ASL? | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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hasuprotoss
United States4676 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13496 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:58 Rainalcar wrote: Do I have wrong numbers? Wasn't it, in ASL? The sample wasn’t big as it was only used one season but believe it was 11-7 in P favour. It was a lottt more imba for ZvT. Terrans couldn’t beat Zerg. Might be what you’re thinking of. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
On September 15 2026 21:02 RowdierBob wrote: The sample wasn’t big as it was only used one season but believe it was 11-7 in P favour. It was a lottt more imba for ZvT. Terrans couldn’t beat Zerg. Might be what you’re thinking of. No sorry I'm not talking about only one matchup but in total. Yes, I remember tvz was terrible. I just wanted to say that island maps are not necessarily terrible for z or p favoured. | ||
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TMNT
3328 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:51 RowdierBob wrote: He prob made too many cannons. I think he prob expected Shine to keep pressing but Shine macroed after the first poke. Shine sniped enough temps to ensure Snow’s mid game wasn’t strong enough to bust him. Watching the replay and judging from hindsight, he probably made 2 cannons more than needed. But judging at the moment Shine semi-dived in, it was justified having at least 6 cannons at that time. There was so many hydras, plus at that very moment, the corsair saw hydras still being built. The balance between cannon vs non-cannon is very delicate. As is the balance between hydra-drone from the Zerg side. Looks like a game where Zerg hits the sweetest spot. Still, you should not get a 20-80 game just because of spending 300 extra minerals to ensure survival. More importantly, Zerg should not even get a 50-50 game after having the chance to kill Protoss. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
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InkieB2B
16 Posts
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TMNT
3328 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:45 Bonyth wrote: Gotta love the wrong conclusions. Snow in both games put cannons in the wrong place or in wrong order And that choke between 2 pylons in game 2 was indeed unbuildable for some reason xD I'm too dumb to know the order but Snow losing on suboptimal timings is in character (ask FlaSh) | ||
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Naib
Hungary4952 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
On September 15 2026 21:14 Naib wrote: effOrt is such a pleasure to watch, hurts me to see either him or Snow not advance with the way things are going, there is no either or. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
GG | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13496 Posts
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
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TMNT
3328 Posts
It's entirely he beats Snow fair and square here. Doesn't mean the matchup is not broken though. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4176 Posts
On September 15 2026 21:18 RowdierBob wrote: Snow is fooked Well Snow needs to be able to win at least vs some zergs otherwise doesnt really matter if he goes through or not. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13496 Posts
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Naib
Hungary4952 Posts
On September 15 2026 21:16 BLinD-RawR wrote: with the way things are going, there is no either or. sure if I had to pick who to bet on right now (assuming even odds) I'd choose effOrt as well, but I don't think the results are a foregone conclusion | ||
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TMNT
3328 Posts
On September 15 2026 21:18 Rainalcar wrote: Did we ever have a 2 race ro8? For sure not in ASL, before? No. But it's not a big deal though. People need to stop focusing on that. Just this time 12 months ago, there were 4 Ps in Ro8. If there was no Protoss in Ro8 this time, it'd be 9 Ps in Ro8 in the last 4 seasons. 9 out of 32 spots is less than 33% but still not that bad. Instead, focus on how they lose the games. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
On September 15 2026 21:25 TMNT wrote: No. But it's not a big deal though. People need to stop focusing on that. Just this time 12 months ago, there were 4 Ps in Ro8. If there was no Protoss in Ro8 this time, it'd be 9 Ps in Ro8 in the last 4 seasons. 9 out of 32 spots is less than 33% but still not that bad. Instead, focus on how they lose the games. I agree, zvp is just bullshit. No other matchup is even close in terms of how mediocre zergs can stomp best protosses in the world. | ||
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
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InkieB2B
16 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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winson
China145 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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nikolaus8844
126 Posts
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doktordingerdonger
133 Posts
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TMNT
3328 Posts
Backrooms has a 38% win rate for PvZ at the god-tier level. He's not gonna win it without a BO advantage, let alone playing it safe. Protoss would never have to do all that gambling shit if the matchup presents them a fair chance when playing safe to begin with. But of course short-sighted people will always point fingers to "why do you die to 6 lings, why do you let those lings slip by etc." Do you think Terran players don't often die to lings because they're better? It's because they can shoot from range behind a depot while playing a favorable matchup. | ||
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InkieB2B
16 Posts
On September 15 2026 21:33 nikolaus8844 wrote: ahhahahah get fooooooked!! C'mon! Cmon....... say now that this has *anything* to do with PvZ imba............. Snow is fckn begging for it....... I mean it is Backrooms. Protoss need to cut corners there against Z | ||
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gravity
Australia2330 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13496 Posts
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TMNT
3328 Posts
On September 15 2026 21:33 BLinD-RawR wrote: why does he insist on playing on colorless fate He doesn't. It's just that they have to ban Attitude. Equally shit but on Colorless they can scout first I guess. | ||
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gravity
Australia2330 Posts
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
and now his main... | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium5216 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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gravity
Australia2330 Posts
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
well done effort.. | ||
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hasuprotoss
United States4676 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13496 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11768 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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Zografa
325 Posts
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nikolaus8844
126 Posts
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hasuprotoss
United States4676 Posts
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PachiBW
24 Posts
On September 15 2026 21:44 Zografa wrote: well 5z 3t in ro8 i didnt expect this I'm assuming you're saying you expected 8 zerg because anything else would mean you haven't been watching broodwar for the past 6 years. | ||
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Brett
Australia3823 Posts
On September 15 2026 21:37 TMNT wrote: If anyone wonders why Snow chose that risk. Here's why: Backrooms has a 38% win rate for PvZ at the god-tier level. He's not gonna win it without a BO advantage, let alone playing it safe. Protoss would never have to do all that gambling shit if the matchup presents them a fair chance when playing safe to begin with. But of course short-sighted people will always point fingers to "why do you die to 6 lings, why do you let those lings slip by etc." Do you think Terran players don't often die to lings because they're better? It's because they can shoot from range behind a depot while playing a favorable matchup. Nah, all the protoss players of the last 20 years have all just sucked. I can't explain why they can beat the top terrans though. It's a real brain teaser. | ||
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Zografa
325 Posts
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winson
China145 Posts
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mOnion
United States5660 Posts
Are the Protoss maps in the room with us? They've gotta get these maps figured out. Protoss can't do anything against this race early. There's too much to account for, block all 3rd expos or something, this is ridiculous at this point. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
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PachiBW
24 Posts
On September 15 2026 21:46 Zografa wrote: no man, come on snow played bad today, also bisu kind of when he got knocked out... the rest of the active protoss are just not really good players, so for this season kind of expected bisu and snow to be in ro8 I agree. His first mistake was picking protoss. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46419 Posts
Congrats to the Zergs though. | ||
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TMNT
3328 Posts
On September 15 2026 21:42 TMNT wrote: He doesn't. It's just that they have to ban Attitude. Equally shit but on Colorless they can scout first I guess. Yep. Just checked the PvZ win rates at god-tier: - Oddysey: doesn't matter, banned by Effort - Attitude: 32% - Backrooms: 38% - Colorless: 40% - Octagon: 50% So you ban the 32% map and pray you beat your opposition on the 38, 40 and 50% maps (by luck the 50% map gets played last though). But according to 910, the maps this season are supposed to help Protoss . | ||
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mOnion
United States5660 Posts
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88)trAncE
9 Posts
Instead of making SC3, at least do a small rebalance, like for example increasing a photon cannon's lifetime or starting a templar with 70 energy when warp-trained from a gateway. Today i feel sad... | ||
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PachiBW
24 Posts
On September 15 2026 21:47 mOnion wrote: Best PvZ we have right now goes 0-4 Are the Protoss maps in the room with us? They've gotta get these maps figured out. Protoss can't do anything against this race early. There's too much to account for, block all 3rd expos or something, this is ridiculous at this point. The problem is that zerg is the most adaptable race so any maps that are new will inherently favor zerg. It doesn't matter if 20 years down the line, it turns out a map is balanced or turns out to be P favored. They will lose for 20 years on that map by nature of being inflexible. So if they want to fix the imbalance issue in PvZ then they need to change the current map design "givens". Mapmakers bend over backwards to make it so zerg doesn't die to terran. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13496 Posts
Anyhoo, hopefully this is a bit of a wake up call for ASL in how they pick their maps. They need to have their map pool released a lot further ahead of the season to give the pros time to test them properly and assess the balance. This map pool has been a shit show this season in amplifying race imbalance. It’s no fun watching games where the biggest indicator of winning is the map draw. | ||
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mOnion
United States5660 Posts
On September 15 2026 21:49 TMNT wrote: Yep. Just checked the PvZ win rates at god-tier: - Oddysey: doesn't matter, banned by Effort - Attitude: 32% - Backrooms: 38% - Colorless: 40% - Octagon: 50% So you ban the 32% map and pray you beat your opposition on the 38, 40 and 50% maps (by luck the 50% map gets played last though). But according to 910, the maps this season are supposed to help Protoss . This is what I don't understand. What does a Protoss map even mean? I asked the same question before this season. I don't even understand the design goals, to say nothing of the fact that it obviously didn't even work. | ||
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PachiBW
24 Posts
On September 15 2026 21:51 mOnion wrote: This is what I don't understand. What does a Protoss map even mean? I asked the same question before this season. I don't even understand the design goals, to say nothing of the fact that it obviously didn't even work. They need to spawn with 4 probes and a zealot lmao | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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hasuprotoss
United States4676 Posts
Shine - Rush Light - effort (match of the round!) Fake Jae - Real Jae Leta - Soulkey | ||
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TMNT
3328 Posts
Then you have one map that they *thought* would help Protoss, which even if it did would get banned by the other races anyway. But then as soon as that map came out they nerfed it for Protoss as well. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
Shine v Rush 0 3 shit match Light v Effort 3 2 great match Soma v JD 3 1 but it's zvz zzzz... Leta v SK 1 3 leta will put up a *small* fight Rush v Light 1 3 Soma v SK 3 2 zvz zzzz... Soma v Light 4 3 But I still give a cobsiderable chance for a zvz final. No chance of a tvt final. | ||
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InkieB2B
16 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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Zografa
325 Posts
as it got drawn probably some funny stuff | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium5216 Posts
Forge expand is outdated and P just doesn't want to accept it. They have a better opportunity going the direction of short 2 gate all in knife fights than this sleep at the wheel passive Sauron zerg bullshit. In any case, mini was supposed to be tje great innovator, or maybe Best but they've been slumping as well so whatever. Maybe one of them will figure it out. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13496 Posts
On September 15 2026 21:51 mOnion wrote: This is what I don't understand. What does a Protoss map even mean? I asked the same question before this season. I don't even understand the design goals, to say nothing of the fact that it obviously didn't even work. It’s a good question. I’d be interested in hearing what someone like Bonyth has to say (I know he lurks in these threads). For mine, Protoss tend to do better in PvZ where it’s easier for them to take and defend a third base. Maps this season has made that very hard so protosses are often forced into 2 base all ins or they get too stretched in later games (and that’s if they make it through the early ling/hydra shenanigans). I don’t think there are any land maps that genuinely favour P. There are a very few where P might push 55% but it seems exceedingly rare. Maybe Match Point? But most of the time a “good” P map is one that has somewhere from 50-53% win rate for them. | ||
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TMNT
3328 Posts
On September 15 2026 22:03 RowdierBob wrote: It’s a good question. I’d be interested in hearing what someone like Bonyth has to say (I know he lurks in these threads). For mine, Protoss tend to do better in PvZ where it’s easier for them to take and defend a third base. Maps this season has made that very hard so protosses are often forced into 2 base all ins or they get too stretched in later games (and that’s if they make it through the early ling/hydra shenanigans). I don’t think there are any land maps that genuinely favour P. There are a very few where P might push 55% but it seems exceedingly rare. Maybe Match Point? But most of the time a “good” P map is one that has somewhere from 50-53% win rate for them. Jane Doe (too Protoss favored) Revolver (decently favored) The easy 3rd base alone is not enough. Vermeer has an easy 3rd for Protoss but it's not P favored. Basically, you have to eliminate or nerf the possibility of lings or hydras killing Protoss straight up in the early game. And this is not just about survival. It's also about Protoss not having to spend much on Cannons so they can grow faster. As you can see how absurdly Shine outgrew Snow economically in the first game. I have to say though, the balance can easily swing the other way that makes it unplayable for Zerg. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia982 Posts
- 10+ mineral patches mains - 3 player maps are ok, 2 player maps are better - backdoor natural expansion maps(zealot blocking ramp early game) can be good, although situational - 1 gap natural wall maps - horizontal walls / forge coverage As for the 3rd, you kinda want: - Gas - Preferably not highground and kind of open, allowing to actually pressure zerg there. That said, highground gas base that is actually close and easy to take for P is an okay alternative. - Distant enough to be hard to take for Terran, with plenty unbuildable terrain on the way there The natural-to-enemy-3rd path should not be a few sieges away, and the path needs to be either really open or have good counter-attack paths that do not require walking around half the map to get into. Anyway, don't need all of these, but want some of these. | ||
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Monochromatic
United States1000 Posts
There were 6 protoss in the tournament. If you give each one a perfect coinflip in every matchup, the odds of none of them advancing is 1/64. There's been 22 tournaments. It's going to happen eventually. Calling for a balance patch in regards to a statistical eventuality is shortsighted. The meta will sort itself out eventually, be it in better strategies, execution, or maps. | ||
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines806 Posts
On September 15 2026 21:51 mOnion wrote: This is what I don't understand. What does a Protoss map even mean? I asked the same question before this season. I don't even understand the design goals, to say nothing of the fact that it obviously didn't even work. Blitz Y 60% WR PvZ map to buff protoss, add these map features: -radeon bookmatch symmetry, where hydras attack protoss walls vertically, making it harder to hydra bust since protoss forge/gateway buildings are smaller vertically than horizontally -Blitz Y/ Neo Dark Oirigin - easily allows protoss to split map, protoss beats Z on equal number of bases -knockout - balanced, but the ditches really help protoss. ditches can be made even stronger by making them bigger, perhaps map makers can even find a smaller number of tiles to blend the high ground to low ground, maximizing how much low ground hydralisks have to shoot from. also neutral disruptions webs on the ditch (especially where hydras would be shooting forges) would really help hydra busts/ TvZ MM sunk busts -low ground/high ground mischance is around 50%, essentially doubling protoss building HP, much more effective then the proposed "add +1 armor to forge/cannon" theoretical balance patch people talk about -apocalypse//fastest map - large choke as opposed to the traditional ramp, making it harder for lings to block probes from scouting inside zerg's main Jane Doe can also be redone, take out the medic/marine that zergs abused by putting overlord on top, put in hallucin mineral patches to slow down gas streal, and the ramp + backdoor expo makes things very favorable for protoss | ||
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
https://www.youtube.com/@dotube | ||
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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines806 Posts
On September 15 2026 21:34 doktordingerdonger wrote: lol nobody going to blame protoss being weak if the top 5 protoss are basically as serious about the game as Calm Bisu might have had some things weighing on his mental since his team got disbanded due to Terror's gambling scandal gigachad Best, who beat soulkey/soma 5-4 back to back in the ultimate battle tournament a couple years ago, seemed to have been busy with other stuff leading up to the group, according to the group A pre-game interview Snow - currently the best protoss, but as a father he probably simply doesn't have the time to practice as much as soulkey/soma Mini - the most technical protoss, but his form is very chaotic. he gets a lot of all-kills in proleague, but also very often crashes and burns Shuttle - watched scan play pub G for an hour in ro24 group A, then in ro16 he "played a thousand games in his head" even though he didn't play much physical practice games. "we need bisu to play better" was his answer to the question 'what should protoss do to beat zergs in the current era?' | ||
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TMNT
3328 Posts
If all the drivers make similar mistakes, maybe it is the car? Do you think if Soma and Soulkey play Protoss, they suddenly never die to lings or hydras? I've seen Flash's Protoss struggling to block a 9 pool, losing an entire Nexus for free. But yeah bury your head in the sand. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
KCM 15 terran 13 Zerg 4 protoss | ||
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
 Oh, and RO 8 draw.... | ||
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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines806 Posts
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
hero's stream: | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium5216 Posts
P is basically a collection of traumatized/vein people: mini and Rain are the "genius that couldn't live up to their potential", Bisu is basically a popstar, Best is traumatized by Julyzerg in his OSL finals (I'm sure he gets flashbacks to game 2 every so often) and Snow has failed a finals so many times he seems to have given up. Maybe TULGOD is our only savior. Mind you, I am a Pboy for life,but their games have been so godawfully uninspiring that I can't give them the love they deserve at the moment. | ||
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
On September 15 2026 23:09 Uldridge wrote: Here's the REAL question Rainacar, why do P players have 100+ APM LESS than the other races? It's beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're more lazy and unwilling to push the envelope. P is basically a collection of traumatized/vein people: mini and Rain are the "genius that couldn't live up to their potential", Bisu is basically a popstar, Best is traumatized by Julyzerg in his OSL finals (I'm sure he gets flashbacks to game 2 every so often) and Snow has failed a finals so many times he seems to have given up. Maybe TULGOD is our only savior. Mind you, I am a Pboy for life,but their games have been so godawfully uninspiring that I can't give them the love they deserve at the moment. Indeed, maybe TULGOD is our king and savior  | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
It's just remarkable to believe that hundreds of players of a certain race have simply been lazy for 20 plus years. Just remarkable. Contrary to Occam's razor and scientific approach. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
On September 15 2026 23:10 prosatan wrote: Indeed, maybe TULGOD is our king and savior Tulbo is hopeless :D | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium5216 Posts
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WGT-Baal
France3547 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia535 Posts
On September 15 2026 23:21 WGT-Baal wrote: I miss the days of reach and anytime with all the funky 1 base builds Yeah. Or jangbis one base play vs zero in the semis. Protoss cannot even contemplate playing 1 base today. Well, gl hf all for the rest of ASL. I wish you least number of zvzs possible. | ||
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PachiBW
24 Posts
On September 15 2026 23:04 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: not blaming the players other than shuttle, more so blaming the maps. i don't agree with nerfing the odyssey features that were supposed to help protoss. but also you can't really say the top protoss players were in good condition this season Player condition really isn't the primary determining factor (well it is if you're protoss, but not if you're zerg, and that's the actual problem). I regularly see Soma play terribly, but he still wins those games off the back of race imbalance. There's fundamentally something wrong with the map design philosophies. They need to overhaul how they think about the game and the first step of that is admitting that it isn't a disparity in skill between protoss and zerg players. But I don't think making new maps is going to solve the problem, because the top level players have shown time and time again that their theory about the game is often flat out wrong (see Roaring Currents). Ultimately zerg is the most adaptable race so any new maps will be to their favor as they can more easily exploit unforeseen map issues. | ||
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Mrs Crabbleman
36 Posts
On September 15 2026 22:15 Monochromatic wrote: I am so sick of seeing this balance whine. It's not a design problem, it's a sample size problem - run enough tournaments and all possible outcomes will happen, even the unlikely ones. There were 6 protoss in the tournament. If you give each one a perfect coinflip in every matchup, the odds of none of them advancing is 1/64. There's been 22 tournaments. It's going to happen eventually. Calling for a balance patch in regards to a statistical eventuality is shortsighted. The meta will sort itself out eventually, be it in better strategies, execution, or maps. Yes it is the same 3 people that never shut the fuck up with the balance whine. And a very good chance they don't touch the game. It's like teen angst or something. Gives me hemorrhoids. It also drowns out the people who throw in a reasonable comment here and there. Awful. Not only were there 6 protoss but they all played bad. Best was the only one showing a couple ggs especially that last one vs Rush, but still throwing in the end. Otherwise super uninspired play from P and many mistakes. It would be reasonable if people were constructive about maps like Soulforged instead of just frothing at the mouth and flailing their limbs. But it's a forum so the same 2-3 people just dominate the discussion with meaningless complaints and no solutions. And when a top protoss (Bonyth) comments that people in the thread are coming to the wrong conclusions, he's just rolled over and ignored to make way for more ranting and raving by the pleb class. | ||
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prosatan
Romania9286 Posts
he is watching the major league (bisu's stream) and he is receiving a lot of balloons ! | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1301 Posts
On September 15 2026 23:12 Rainalcar wrote: Feel free to give me the APM stats. But we all know Speed is mediocre his 500+ notwithstanding. It's just remarkable to believe that hundreds of players of a certain race have simply been lazy for 20 plus years. Just remarkable. Contrary to Occam's razor and scientific approach. Speed is mediocre offline, online he is considered terran player #3 behind rush and light. Offline is much less about peak skill potential and more about mental fortitude in translating online performance to offline. Leta for example generally loses everything online. Offline he somehow manages to play at the same level as online, which in an offline setting is an amazing performance. It is also why ASL games are generally very mid or bad compared to the average online game. | ||
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TMNT
3328 Posts
On September 15 2026 23:09 Uldridge wrote: Here's the REAL question Rainacar, why do P players have 100+ APM LESS than the other races? It's beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're more lazy and unwilling to push the envelope. P is basically a collection of traumatized/vein people: mini and Rain are the "genius that couldn't live up to their potential", Bisu is basically a popstar, Best is traumatized by Julyzerg in his OSL finals (I'm sure he gets flashbacks to game 2 every so often) and Snow has failed a finals so many times he seems to have given up. Maybe TULGOD is our only savior. Mind you, I am a Pboy for life,but their games have been so godawfully uninspiring that I can't give them the love they deserve at the moment. They don't lol. Bisu and Mini have as many apm as any player from the other race. But apm means fuck all in the first place anyway so why bring that up? Plenty of low level Protoss also have more apm than Snow. Plenty of top Zerg and Terran have as low apm as Protoss. On average, Protoss players exhibit lower apm. And by average, I mean the entire population of thousands of Protoss players, not just the pros. But that's because playing the race doesn't require more clicking, and that's why I said they exhibit lower apm, not that they have lower apm. Like, do you think the thousands of players who pick Protoss just happen to be slower than the thousands of players who pick Zerg. Just like that, for many years? It's like saying a pianist who plays the Moonlight sonata 1st mov is slower or lazyer than one who plays the Pathetique sonata 3rd mov lol. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium5216 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1301 Posts
On September 16 2026 00:28 Uldridge wrote: Yes, I do think the slower piano players are lazier. That's not even a matter of debate, that's just a fact. Less keys = less effort necessary = laziness. You can't argue with that logic. eh that makes no sense. It is also about cognitive bandwidth alocation and efficiency. Soulkey during his peak years averaged 280 apm, even though he can play 330+. There is a valid argument to be made to spend more time gathering information by looking around and clicking on units for health and grades than to input actions nonstop and miss infotmation You can see this in most games at the very very peak. They can play super fast, but dont on purpose. reading info and abusing info > nonstop input. In super smash brothers melee the top 10, if they meet and duel, play noticably slower than players they can easily beat by just inputting actions nonstop. | ||
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Smorrie
Netherlands2948 Posts
First game in the winner's set was near perfect play. His control was great, only engaging in favorable positions and retreating otherwise to maximize value, good map awareness, defense vs DT, continuous lurker spreads, always poking to find weaknesses, expanding well, and his macro stayed on-point throughout the full game. I don't think Snow played bad by any means but Shine was at a different level today. And Snow then mentally spiraled playing terribly in the final set. If Shine keeps this form he'll be scary opponent for anyone in the remaining tournament. | ||
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TMNT
3328 Posts
On September 16 2026 00:28 Uldridge wrote: Yes, I do think the slower piano players are lazier. That's not even a matter of debate, that's just a fact. Less keys = less effort necessary = laziness. You can't argue with that logic. That's not my analogy though. The pianist who plays Moonlight sonata is not necessarily slower, he just plays a slower piece of music. Just think about the bigger picture : do you think if at the beginning of their career the Zerg players now chose to play Protoss, and vice versa, we would see Protoss with 100+ apm more than Zerg now? Lmao no. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States14003 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium5216 Posts
So if current T or Z pros would've picked P, they'd become a boring, non innovating, overly relying on the forge expand (almost 20 years ago now, lmao even) lazy bums. | ||
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Talaris
Switzerland766 Posts
On September 15 2026 20:49 InkieB2B wrote: Inbefore Snow wins this season and map balance discussion turns super non straightforward :D This didn't age well...errr... didn't age at all :D | ||
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TMNT
3328 Posts
On September 16 2026 00:57 Uldridge wrote: Not only are players who pick P inherently lazier than Ts or Zs Yeah, right... okay then. They were just born like this. they also make you lazier by playing it. So if current T or Z pros would've picked P, they'd become a boring, non innovating, overly relying on the forge expand (almost 20 years ago now, lmao even) lazy bums. Actually a quite possible hypothesis. But then this just shows the race is the problem, not the players. So nothing to disagree here. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51445 Posts
On September 16 2026 00:57 Uldridge wrote: You're not getting the picture. Not only are players who pick P inherently lazier than Ts or Zs, they also make you lazier by playing it. It's a double whammy. So if current T or Z pros would've picked P, they'd become a boring, non innovating, overly relying on the forge expand (almost 20 years ago now, lmao even) lazy bums. I'm going to have to ask you to stop here, this doesn't serve anyone. I'm sure you're making a joke because if you're not then the level of discourse you want to engage with here is beneath everyone, including yourself. | ||
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oxKnu
1264 Posts
You can search my posts in the original thread when the maps were first released. I claimed then and there that the maps were absolute graveyards for Protoss (even against T). So sweet to be 100% right on this. Salute to that 910 guy that has been picking the ASL mappool for the past 5 years especially to protect the ever so delicate Terran players of any "unfair" disadvantages. What an absolute joke. Someone in this thread brought up the argument that we have enough of a sample of games between real competitive pros over the past 20 years to SAFELY conclude that the game doesn't need a patch to balance the races. Brother, you could send a mega dataset of all pro matches of this game to the best data scientist in the world and I assure you, hand in fire or whatever the fuck you want that the conclusion would be the exact opposite. Protoss is far weaker than any of the other races. That being said: I still think that these organizers should grow a fucking pair and fire that guy doing the maps and stop asking Terrans what they think of the maps for the next 5-10 years. Don't worry, it's a very solid race, they'll never be disadvantaged to a degree comparable to what P (and Z, sometimes) has to deal with. | ||
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