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tomatriedes
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
New Zealand5356 Posts
February 25 2007 14:18 GMT
#21
Anyone else more excited about the Shinhan Masters?
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 25 2007 14:19 GMT
#22
bisu is a wise man
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
February 25 2007 14:56 GMT
#23
I think sometimes its good to have a break to breath.. Bisu probably will come back stronger than you guys think. I'm not saying Bisu will crush sAviOr, because that would be nonsense.
sAviOrs ZvP is incredible because he understands how to beat the nowadays toss.

The real problem of savior - in my opinion - is that he is slow if you are going to compare him to other progamers apm. With slow I don't say slow reactions, but slowER! reactions.
You can see that he knows that he is slower, because he saves his expansions with sunkens and lurkers to by him time.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think sAviOr would get a problem with a fast tripple gate instead of a fast expansion build.
Or perhaps Bisu should try to reaver drop. sAviOr always makes alot of economy and a few zerglings so he is late on mutalisk.. or hydras.
Fast Expansion is not the way you win vs sAviOr.

What do you think?
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
araav
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
Armenia1590 Posts
February 25 2007 15:05 GMT
#24
On February 25 2007 23:56 G.s)NarutO wrote:
I think sometimes its good to have a break to breath.. Bisu probably will come back stronger than you guys think. I'm not saying Bisu will crush sAviOr, because that would be nonsense.
sAviOrs ZvP is incredible because he understands how to beat the nowadays toss.

The real problem of savior - in my opinion - is that he is slow if you are going to compare him to other progamers apm. With slow I don't say slow reactions, but slowER! reactions.
You can see that he knows that he is slower, because he saves his expansions with sunkens and lurkers to by him time.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think sAviOr would get a problem with a fast tripple gate instead of a fast expansion build.
Or perhaps Bisu should try to reaver drop. sAviOr always makes alot of economy and a few zerglings so he is late on mutalisk.. or hydras.
Fast Expansion is not the way you win vs sAviOr.

What do you think?

sorry, I think you are a dumb kid...
Savior with his 2xx APM outmicroed outbattled Nada's 4xx APM in several simultaneous battles + scourged DSs, etc. slow? ok
The flower that blooms in adversity is the most rare and beautiful of all.
The Storyteller
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
Singapore2486 Posts
February 25 2007 15:06 GMT
#25
But doesn't Savior mix his play up enough to keep people guessing? He's cleverly done 9 pools just enough times so that everyone starts wondering if he'll do it again.
The Storyteller
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
Singapore2486 Posts
February 25 2007 15:08 GMT
#26
And I don't think he has slower reactions. He just likes to push things as far as they can go. So his sunkens are always a little later than seems wise. However, he's obviously doing it with the right timing, because it always seems to work. Remember when he fought off a 4 gate rush after FE?
ManaBlue
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Canada10458 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-02-25 15:16:57
February 25 2007 15:15 GMT
#27
A Protoss player will never beat Savior in a series, period.

There's no point in even bothering to watch.

EDIT:

Before someone thinks they're clever, yes I know Ra did it once. The point I'm making is that until Savior begins his inevitable "losing to everyone he plays until he drops half way down kespa" slump, no toss will beat him in a series again.

I stand by that.
ModeratorTL VOD legends: Live2Win, hasuprotoss, Cadical, rinizim, Mani, thedeadhaji, Kennigit, SonuvBob, yakii, fw, pheer, CDRdude, pholon, Uraeus, zatic, baezzi. The contributors make this site what it is. *Props to FakeSteve for respecting the guitar gods*
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
February 25 2007 15:16 GMT
#28
On February 26 2007 00:05 araav wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2007 23:56 G.s)NarutO wrote:
I think sometimes its good to have a break to breath.. Bisu probably will come back stronger than you guys think. I'm not saying Bisu will crush sAviOr, because that would be nonsense.
sAviOrs ZvP is incredible because he understands how to beat the nowadays toss.

The real problem of savior - in my opinion - is that he is slow if you are going to compare him to other progamers apm. With slow I don't say slow reactions, but slowER! reactions.
You can see that he knows that he is slower, because he saves his expansions with sunkens and lurkers to by him time.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think sAviOr would get a problem with a fast tripple gate instead of a fast expansion build.
Or perhaps Bisu should try to reaver drop. sAviOr always makes alot of economy and a few zerglings so he is late on mutalisk.. or hydras.
Fast Expansion is not the way you win vs sAviOr.

What do you think?

sorry, I think you are a dumb kid...
Savior with his 2xx APM outmicroed outbattled Nada's 4xx APM in several simultaneous battles + scourged DSs, etc. slow? ok


Why do I get flamed the whole time... I did not say he is slow. I said he is slower.. and I also posted a theory why I think that he is slower. Please don't blame me for thinking about his playing style...
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
February 25 2007 15:17 GMT
#29
On February 25 2007 23:56 G.s)NarutO wrote:
I think sometimes its good to have a break to breath.. Bisu probably will come back stronger than you guys think. I'm not saying Bisu will crush sAviOr, because that would be nonsense.
sAviOrs ZvP is incredible because he understands how to beat the nowadays toss.

The real problem of savior - in my opinion - is that he is slow if you are going to compare him to other progamers apm. With slow I don't say slow reactions, but slowER! reactions.
You can see that he knows that he is slower, because he saves his expansions with sunkens and lurkers to by him time.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think sAviOr would get a problem with a fast tripple gate instead of a fast expansion build.
Or perhaps Bisu should try to reaver drop. sAviOr always makes alot of economy and a few zerglings so he is late on mutalisk.. or hydras.
Fast Expansion is not the way you win vs sAviOr.

What do you think?


yes im sure a fast triple gate rush would be harder for savior to defend seeing as how he has slower reactions and probably won't react to the triple gate. I think you're dumb too
sweatpants
Profile Joined April 2006
United States940 Posts
February 25 2007 15:17 GMT
#30
On February 25 2007 23:56 G.s)NarutO wrote:
I think sometimes its good to have a break to breath.. Bisu probably will come back stronger than you guys think. I'm not saying Bisu will crush sAviOr, because that would be nonsense.
sAviOrs ZvP is incredible because he understands how to beat the nowadays toss.

The real problem of savior - in my opinion - is that he is slow if you are going to compare him to other progamers apm. With slow I don't say slow reactions, but slowER! reactions.
You can see that he knows that he is slower, because he saves his expansions with sunkens and lurkers to by him time.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think sAviOr would get a problem with a fast tripple gate instead of a fast expansion build.
Or perhaps Bisu should try to reaver drop. sAviOr always makes alot of economy and a few zerglings so he is late on mutalisk.. or hydras.
Fast Expansion is not the way you win vs sAviOr.

What do you think?


Savior is slower than other pros? He's the greatest multitasking zerg in history. In my opinion, he has the best sense of in-game awareness today. I'd give you some sources on this, but it's really almost every freaking game. I've seen a lot of unfounded arguments being made against him but this one is just ridiculous. Sorry, I hope I don't come across like an asshole, but I just don't understand how anyone could possibly make this argument.
Perfect. Plays low-econ, high-econ, plays orthodox, plays funky, plays Mozart, plays Run-DMC. Micro, macro, strategy, management, fundamentals, and balls the size of Brazil. He plays Zerg the way the Xel Naga intended - like a ball of mercury. -HonestTea
ManaBlue
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Canada10458 Posts
February 25 2007 15:18 GMT
#31
On February 26 2007 00:16 G.s)NarutO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 26 2007 00:05 araav wrote:
On February 25 2007 23:56 G.s)NarutO wrote:
I think sometimes its good to have a break to breath.. Bisu probably will come back stronger than you guys think. I'm not saying Bisu will crush sAviOr, because that would be nonsense.
sAviOrs ZvP is incredible because he understands how to beat the nowadays toss.

The real problem of savior - in my opinion - is that he is slow if you are going to compare him to other progamers apm. With slow I don't say slow reactions, but slowER! reactions.
You can see that he knows that he is slower, because he saves his expansions with sunkens and lurkers to by him time.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think sAviOr would get a problem with a fast tripple gate instead of a fast expansion build.
Or perhaps Bisu should try to reaver drop. sAviOr always makes alot of economy and a few zerglings so he is late on mutalisk.. or hydras.
Fast Expansion is not the way you win vs sAviOr.

What do you think?

sorry, I think you are a dumb kid...
Savior with his 2xx APM outmicroed outbattled Nada's 4xx APM in several simultaneous battles + scourged DSs, etc. slow? ok


Why do I get flamed the whole time... I did not say he is slow. I said he is slower.. and I also posted a theory why I think that he is slower. Please don't blame me for thinking about his playing style...


Talking about APM is silly, as it has little to no bearing on a player once they reach a certain level. The fact that Savior shits on everyone he plays should be an indication of his skill and multitasking to you, not his APM.
ModeratorTL VOD legends: Live2Win, hasuprotoss, Cadical, rinizim, Mani, thedeadhaji, Kennigit, SonuvBob, yakii, fw, pheer, CDRdude, pholon, Uraeus, zatic, baezzi. The contributors make this site what it is. *Props to FakeSteve for respecting the guitar gods*
ManaBlue
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Canada10458 Posts
February 25 2007 15:19 GMT
#32
Oh god, now it looks like we're ganging up on him. Didn't see those posts made.

Let's just drop it kids. This thread shouldn't be ruined from needlessly flaming the uninformed.
ModeratorTL VOD legends: Live2Win, hasuprotoss, Cadical, rinizim, Mani, thedeadhaji, Kennigit, SonuvBob, yakii, fw, pheer, CDRdude, pholon, Uraeus, zatic, baezzi. The contributors make this site what it is. *Props to FakeSteve for respecting the guitar gods*
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
February 25 2007 15:23 GMT
#33
Seems like no one really wants to argument with me. They read the posts I made ago in NaDa vs sAviOr threads and now they think I just want to talk sAviOr bad. Its not like this.
I argumented without any no manner comments or stuff... but I get flamed all the time. I'm not dumb. I just ask myself why a player like savior builds 3 sunkens and lurkers on his expansions. Is it to buy time? Is it to be safer? Is it to avoid drops?
I never doubted he is great in multitasking macro and micro like someone said before and I'm also not talking only about apm of savior.
But seems like objectivity is out of order here T_T
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
sweatpants
Profile Joined April 2006
United States940 Posts
February 25 2007 15:23 GMT
#34
Yea I don't want this to turn into a flame thread either. Just watch like any game from any time in 2006 and you're more than likely to see some great examples of incredible reaction times. Things that came to mind immediately- vs oov series early 2006, catching shuttles with burrowed hydras on 815 mid 2006, superfight vs nada on arkanoid autumn 2006, and of course game 1 in the recent finals.
Perfect. Plays low-econ, high-econ, plays orthodox, plays funky, plays Mozart, plays Run-DMC. Micro, macro, strategy, management, fundamentals, and balls the size of Brazil. He plays Zerg the way the Xel Naga intended - like a ball of mercury. -HonestTea
QuietIdiot
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
7004 Posts
February 25 2007 15:31 GMT
#35
I think I understand why bisu is taking his time off.

1.) He and his team worked damn hard to win proleague, and probably doesn't want to be left all alone in his place, despite the upcoming big games.
2.) A teacher once told me, days before a major exam, its better not to go into extreme stress and start mass studying. Instead, take some time off, relax, and go in there with an open mind. Meh, just a guess.
sweatpants
Profile Joined April 2006
United States940 Posts
February 25 2007 15:31 GMT
#36
On February 26 2007 00:23 G.s)NarutO wrote:
Seems like no one really wants to argument with me. They read the posts I made ago in NaDa vs sAviOr threads and now they think I just want to talk sAviOr bad. Its not like this.
I argumented without any no manner comments or stuff... but I get flamed all the time. I'm not dumb. I just ask myself why a player like savior builds 3 sunkens and lurkers on his expansions. Is it to buy time? Is it to be safer? Is it to avoid drops?
I never doubted he is great in multitasking macro and micro like someone said before and I'm also not talking only about apm of savior.
But seems like objectivity is out of order here T_T


The thing you probably saw is what you see in all pros. That's because there is uncertainty as to where the enemy is going at the moment. It sometimes ends up being a bluff- ie. some terrans will move their entire army out and then move right back to do nothing but to scout and to force some delay in the opponent. For example, I think Iris won one of the games vs Savior with like 4 turrets in his economy that didn't fire once because sAviOr didn't go mutas. It's all about the best preparation for the most information you can get. As far as your comment on multitasking.. you cannot have good multitasking without inhuman reaction to what's going on in the game. I really didn't mean this to be a flame, so sorry if it felt like that.
Perfect. Plays low-econ, high-econ, plays orthodox, plays funky, plays Mozart, plays Run-DMC. Micro, macro, strategy, management, fundamentals, and balls the size of Brazil. He plays Zerg the way the Xel Naga intended - like a ball of mercury. -HonestTea
sweatpants
Profile Joined April 2006
United States940 Posts
February 25 2007 15:33 GMT
#37
On February 26 2007 00:31 QuietIdiot wrote:
I think I understand why bisu is taking his time off.

1.) He and his team worked damn hard to win proleague, and probably doesn't want to be left all alone in his place, despite the upcoming big games.
2.) A teacher once told me, days before a major exam, its better not to go into extreme stress and start mass studying. Instead, take some time off, relax, and go in there with an open mind. Meh, just a guess.


Heh heh. I would think so too but in almost all the interviews, progamers are really tired from lack of sleep because they stayed up practicing.
Perfect. Plays low-econ, high-econ, plays orthodox, plays funky, plays Mozart, plays Run-DMC. Micro, macro, strategy, management, fundamentals, and balls the size of Brazil. He plays Zerg the way the Xel Naga intended - like a ball of mercury. -HonestTea
snowbird
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Germany2044 Posts
February 25 2007 15:33 GMT
#38
On February 26 2007 00:23 G.s)NarutO wrote:
Seems like no one really wants to argument with me. They read the posts I made ago in NaDa vs sAviOr threads and now they think I just want to talk sAviOr bad. Its not like this.
I argumented without any no manner comments or stuff... but I get flamed all the time. I'm not dumb. I just ask myself why a player like savior builds 3 sunkens and lurkers on his expansions. Is it to buy time? Is it to be safer? Is it to avoid drops?
I never doubted he is great in multitasking macro and micro like someone said before and I'm also not talking only about apm of savior.
But seems like objectivity is out of order here T_T


Depending on the state of the game, if you can afford it, it is always better to protect your expos with sunkens/lurkers. They are of course built with the intention to buy some time, so you can send backup to save your expo.
But I don't see how this as anything to do with Savior being slow?
Units are slow, savior is not~
@riotsnowbird
QuietIdiot
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
7004 Posts
February 25 2007 15:40 GMT
#39
On February 26 2007 00:33 sweatpants wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 26 2007 00:31 QuietIdiot wrote:
I think I understand why bisu is taking his time off.

1.) He and his team worked damn hard to win proleague, and probably doesn't want to be left all alone in his place, despite the upcoming big games.
2.) A teacher once told me, days before a major exam, its better not to go into extreme stress and start mass studying. Instead, take some time off, relax, and go in there with an open mind. Meh, just a guess.


Heh heh. I would think so too but in almost all the interviews, progamers are really tired from lack of sleep because they stayed up practicing.

This is the biggest series of his life and he's been practicing extremely hard throughout the year. All those other games were mere small tests, this is the final exam, definitely worth conserving energy for. He knows the material, he's tried hard throughout, he's probably at his best right now, he lacks serious amount of sleep, so why not?
The Storyteller
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
Singapore2486 Posts
February 25 2007 15:40 GMT
#40
On February 26 2007 00:23 G.s)NarutO wrote:
Seems like no one really wants to argument with me. They read the posts I made ago in NaDa vs sAviOr threads and now they think I just want to talk sAviOr bad. Its not like this.
I argumented without any no manner comments or stuff... but I get flamed all the time. I'm not dumb. I just ask myself why a player like savior builds 3 sunkens and lurkers on his expansions. Is it to buy time? Is it to be safer? Is it to avoid drops?
I never doubted he is great in multitasking macro and micro like someone said before and I'm also not talking only about apm of savior.
But seems like objectivity is out of order here T_T


Hey, I responded nicely.
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